New reader. Kaladin motivation doubts.

[AliceRoseGold]

Why this guy wants to help people all the time? What's is his internal motivation? What does it mean to him? How did get to be like that? 

The book is extremely long, I am at 2/3 point of it and I am getting a bit desperate.

He basically has two qualities he wants to save people and he is depressed, he is also inslaved for the most duration of the book, but I am not, I wish to be able to enjoy what I am reading. Mental health problems rappresentation is the reason why I wish to read this series in the first place. 

For the first component of Kaladin character I gathered two possible explanations of what "saving people" could mean for him from other answers on Internet.

- It is his trauma of not having been able to save his brother, but it doesn't make sense much, he expressed the desire to join the army before his brother was conscripted, always giving the same reason "save people" - what people, why save, why the military is the best way, save from who, save for what purpose. I mean what was at the base of young kaladin believes and aspirations? Even his father is not a fan of Kaladin joining the army.

Later in the book it is reveled that Syl is a spawn of Honor and nobility, so I presume honor is a main component of his character and the main motivation to "save people", but I have quite a few problems with this explanation. Honor is such a complex social construct, it a code of moral conduct deriving from our experiences, our believes, religion, cultural norms, role models. Honor and nobility are not feelings, they are belives. But the problem is that regardless of the book indecent size and predominance in it of the Kaladin chapters there is very little actual information of how he came to hold this particular belive and what it means to him. Honor and duty are concepts usually related to upholding the society's norms and values, it is about God, law and order, tradition.

I find the "honor" explanation of his character utterly unsatisfying, it feels more like a label applied to him and the character is forced to act upon it without any real meaning, this makes un for un infuriatingly boring and frustrating read, more than half of 1000+ pages book is dedicated to him let's not forget. 

But just thinking about it I came up with another possible internal motivation, one that would, at least for me make 100% sense. He wants to help people not in a rational way, not of the duty, but because he is an EMPATH, a super empath even. He must save everyone because he feels everyone's pain around he so strongly that he can't stand aside and watch. Empathy doesn't need to be rational, it doesn't need ulterior motives, it's pure instinct like we see with Kaladin actions most of the time.

What are your interpretations?

Edited December 6, 2023 by AliceRoseGold

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums. may I ask if you have read any other works by Sanderson, or is this your first? Way of Kings (and all of Stormlight Archive) is a long story and a serious time investment, and is often not the best place with which to start if you think Sandseron's other series may also appeal to you. 

Here are some forum tips and tools you may not yet know (since every forum is slightly different):

Spoiler

• At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link.
• At the bottom right you will see an heart icon (and possibly different reactions in the future).
• At the top right you will see a hamburger menu (three dots) which shows: Report, Share, and (your posts only) Edit and Hide tools.

Likes/Reactions:

Spoiler

• The Heart Icon (Like) is how you thank people or "like" a post
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Report Tool:

Spoiler

• Use  the Report tool to report any post (your own or others) to a forum Mod
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.
  • For reporting Spam, only report a single post by the user to let the Mods and Admins know - they get messages for each "report" so reporting each Spam post is annoying and unnecessary. If all posts by a "new user" (bot) are all spam - then all of those posts will be deleted when that account is deleted.

Hide Tool:

Spoiler

• Use the Hide tool to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting (useful for accidental double-posts)
  • Hiding the first post in a Thread will hide the threan as long as ther have been no replies (Needs Testing)

Mentions:

Spoiler

• You can "Mention" a person by typing "@" and slowly typing their user name (spelling matters). As you spell their name, the interface will show a pop-up with matches - when you match appears, click it to add the Mention
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Quote Methods:

Spoiler

• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is (adding a carraige return if necessary)
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you can click that for each post you want to quote
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically with one blank line between each for you to add your comment(s)
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote Selection" button that pops up.
  • This will also be added to the cursor location, rather than the bottom of the reply.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
  • This is also how you can add quotes to an Edit of your own post. You quote using any of the methods above and the quote will go to the reply section. You then hover over the four-way arrow and use CTRL+C to cut the quote, which you can then paste into your edit window.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Editing posts:

Spoiler

• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title (important for changing accidental spoilers)
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Other:

Spoiler

• Quotes and Spoilers are very similar, but here are the differences:
  • Spoiler tags are default "closed" and are not attributed - they may be opened by clicking the spoiler box title
  • Quotes are default "open" (but may be closed by clicking the Quote Title and are denoted by the basic arrow icon on the left side of the quote title), If the quote was added with one of the methods explained above, it will be attributed - if it was added with the quote icon in the Reply/Edit tools, it will not be attributed.
  • Attributed Quotes will have a curved arrow icon on the right side of the quote title to jump directly to the post from which the quote was taken.

Hope that helps.

1 hour ago, AliceRoseGold said:

It is his trauma of not having been able to save his brother, but it doesn't make sense much, he expressed the desire to join the army before his brother was conscripted, always giving the same reason "save people" - what people, why save, why the military is the best way, save from who, save for what purpose. I mean what was at the base of young kaladin believes and aspirations? Even his father is not a fan of Kaladin joining the army.

This is not quite correct - Originally, Kaladin wanted to join the army to become a "hero" - and because Laral wanted him to win a Shardblade and become a Lighteyes. WoK Ch 16:

Spoiler

He’d known his father was serious. Kal just hadn’t wanted to mention leaving to become a surgeon, particularly not to Laral.

She placed her hands on her hips. “I thought you were going to go become a soldier.”

Kal shrugged.

She rolled her eyes, hopping down off her ridge onto a stone beside him. “Don’t you want to become a lighteyes? Win a Shardblade?”

“Father says that doesn’t happen very often.”

She knelt down before him. “I’m sure you could do it.” Those eyes, so bright and alive, shimmering green, the color of life itself.

<snip>

“So,” Laral said, folding her arms. “What are you going to do? If your father tries to send you to Kharbranth?”

“I don’t know,” Kal said. “The surgeons won’t take anyone before their sixteenth Weeping, so I’ve got time to think.” The best surgeons and healers trained in Kharbranth. Everyone knew that. The city was said to have more hospitals than taverns.

“It sounds like your father is forcing you to do what he wants, not what you want,” Laral said.

“That’s the way everyone does it,” Kal said, scratching his head. “The other boys don’t mind becoming farmers because their fathers were farmers, and Ral just became the new town carpenter. He didn’t mind that it was what his father did. Why should I mind being a surgeon?”

“I just—” Laral looked angry. “Kal, if you go to war and find a Shardblade, then you’d be a lighteyes…. I mean…Oh, this is useless.” She settled back, folding her arms even more tightly.

Kal scratched his head. She really was acting oddly. “I wouldn’t mind going to war, winning honor and all that. Mostly, I’d like to travel. See what other lands are like.”

<snip>

And yet, to become a soldier…The other boys dreamed of joining the army, of fighting with King Gavilar. There was talk of going to war with Jah Keved, once and for all. What would it be like, to finally see some of the heroes from stories? To fight with Highprince Sadeas, or Dalinar the Blackthorn?

His reaction about "saving" as a soldier was just to counter Lirin's insistence that "as a Surgeon you can save people, but as soldier you can only kill." That idea of his - fighting to protect - was his reaction to his father's arguments. That, coupled with events from Ch 20 (with Miasel) and Tien's fate, all combined to make him the spearleader seen through Cenn's eyes in Ch 1 - one who tried to protect the new soldiers until they are properly trained - which translated to how he tried to protect his fellow slaves and, eventually, what you see in Bridge 4. 

1 hour ago, AliceRoseGold said:

He wants to help people not in a rational way, not of the duty, but because he is an EMPATH

Kaladin has a high empathy (seen especially in Ch 20 with Maisel) - he does feel for others - but it's not a Supernatural/Magical Empathy. His ability to empathize even becomes very plot relevant in later books (though it's relevant now - just not emphasized)

He was also raised in a houshold and taught by his surgeon father that "saving people" was the best thing for a person to do (the crux of Lirin's arguement against joining the army was this), especially a second Nahn family like his who have a duty to help others less fortunate. So his upbringing already reinforced that he should "save people" - then he went to Amaram's army with his brother and failed to save Tien. This pushed him to save others and not fail again. . . 

1 hour ago, AliceRoseGold said:

Later in the book it is reveled that Syl is a spawn of Honor and nobility, so I presume honor is a main component of his character and the main motivation to "save people", but I have quite a few problems with this explanation. Honor is such a complex social construct, it a code of moral conduct deriving from our experiences, our believes, religion, cultural norms, role models. Honor and nobility are not feelings, they are belives. But the problem is that regardless of the book indecent size and predominance in it of the Kaladin chapters there is very little actual information of how he came to hold this particular belive and what it means to him. Honor and duty are concepts usually related to upholding the society's norms and values, it is about God, law and order, tradition.

This has some tangential connection, but will be discussed near the climax of Way of Kings, and more fully explored in Words of Radiance. Minor Spoilers:

Spoiler

Syl is part of this, but the impulse to protect is not because of her connection to Honor - but rather the connection to the Surges that her bond with Kaladin allows - and how that will develop. More Story-Generic Spoilers:

Spoiler

Windrunners (Radiants Summaries)

Windrunner oaths are themed toward protection, particularly defending innocents or those who are unable to protect themselves.

The Windrunners tend to attract “big sibling” types, who seek to protect the defenseless, but also enjoy action and fighting for what they believe in. They’re primarily scouts, though they often work as special forces groups, able to deliver teams of Radiants behind enemy lines for secret missions. They tend to be the most like conventional soldiers, believing in structures of command, team dynamics, and the importance of a squad of brothers and sisters. They often have larger numbers of squires than other Orders and focus more than any other Order on mastering their weapons.

 

Hope that helps. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[AliceRoseGold]

Ok, thank you very much, I will probably re-read anyway, even if did find some parts of it quite non my cup of tea, I am not that much in high fantasy usually, i read a lot of non fantasy so the adjustment is a bit sharp. I am particolary interested in stromlight archive for the important place it holds and the messages it brings. I read years ago the Mistborn first era, I remember liking it.

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, AliceRoseGold said:

Ok, thank you very much, I will probably re-read anyway, even if did find some parts of it quite non my cup of tea, I am not that much in high fantasy usually, i read a lot of non fantasy so the adjustment is a bit sharp. I am particolary interested in stromlight archive for the important place it holds and the messages it brings. I read years ago the Mistborn first era, I remember liking it.

Okay. Please let us know if you have further questions or need clarification. You may also consider perusing this thread where Amira blogged her readings (shw is now on Book 3) and that might help add perspective or answer questsion as you can see how she felt about the same chapters, and what questions she had (and how we answerd them - or not). Since she goes chapter-by-chapter, it's fairly easy to not go too far and spoil something for yourself. 

Minor Spoiler (but more just something to look forward to if you do continue with Stormlight Archive)

Spoiler

In Book four Kaladin realizes how horribly inadequate Rosharan Mental Healthcare is - and starts working to spearhead (pun intended) the field of Psychiatry on Roshar. . . 

 Are you familiar with Altered Perceptions? It was a for-charity release in support of Mental Illness Awareness and allowed contributing authors to submit both essays on how Mental Illness affects their lives (and lives of family, friends, etc.) along with content either original to the Anthology or showing drafts/versions of work where known characters made difference choices from the published material.

Sanderson's Website:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson’s contribution to the anthology is six chapters from the original 2002 version of The Way of Kings, where Kaladin made a choice opposite the one he makes in the completely rewritten published novel.

 Excerpts from the Forward, Introduction and ToC:

Spoiler

Quote

Foreword - Ally Condie

When I was younger, in a misguided attempt to determine whether I had a fight or flight response to danger, my father hid in my bedroom closet and jumped out to startle me. (He was a judge and had seen too many bad things happen to people who didn’t have a quick response to danger.) To his frustration, my gut instinct was neither to run nor to stand my ground. Instead, I collapsed on the floor.

“That’s not going to do you any good when something dangerous comes along, Ally,” he said, and even though his method of teaching me this lesson was dubious—and, frankly, stupid—I agreed with the principle.

<snip>

But when I came to the greatest danger of my life so far, that of a loved one struggling with a mental illness, I learned that neither of these were viable options for that person. There is no flight from yourself. There is no fighting yourself, not without disastrous and painful consequences. You cannot run, and you cannot hide, and it is a supremely painful place to exist.

Where, then, can you escape?

As writers and readers, we believe in the power of story. We believe in the line that William Nicholson wrote for the movie Shadowlands: “We read to know that we are not alone.” Stories heal. Stories entertain. Stories keep us sane. Through them, we unlearn everything we thought we knew and find it coming back different and true.

Of course, sometimes a story is just a story. It cannot take away the pain. You cannot escape into it. I have spent many nights sitting by the side of someone’s bed, wishing that my stories could do something for this person that I love so much, and at the same time I knew with certainty that in that moment my stories did not help.

And still, of all the tenets of my personal belief, my belief in the power of story is one of the deepest held. If I had the power to tell exactly the right story to the person I love, it might sound something like this: I knew you before. I knew you after. I want to know you now. I have a story for you. Here it is. Do you see? It is exactly what you need it to be.

<snip>

Quote

Introduction - Dan Wells

When my brother Rob and I were little, I used to play a game I called “See How Easy It Is to Bug Him?” This is the kind of thing that older brothers do. The game was simpler than you probably think: just go into a public place and attract attention. That’s literally all it took.

<snip>

And then a few decades later he was diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder, and suddenly it wasn’t so funny anymore.

(Well, still kind of funny—he is my little brother, after all—just less funny.)

<snip>

 Hindsight also makes it easy to spot the quirks that would eventually develop into full-blown depression, and if I squint my eyes a bit I can see in his younger perfectionism the ominous shadow of what is now a crippling case of OCD: not the “group my M&Ms by color” kind of OCD, but the real OCD, the “my mind is not my own” OCD that makes him try to break his own hands or throw himself down the stairs. None of what he did as a child was a quantifiable, diagnosable disorder; none of it was the kind of behavior a wiser eye might have looked at and said “that child has dark things in his future.”

<snip>

This anthology, in a weird kind of way, is about that difference in trajectory. Just like people, some stories grow up one way and some stories grow up another way, and in slightly different circumstances one story could go in any number of different directions. When we set out to put together an anthology to help raise awareness of mental illness, we decided to focus not on the illness itself—most of these contributions are not stories about mental illness—but on the subtle differences that can send a story, or a life, down a completely unexpected path.

<snip>

In another way, this anthology is about itself: about the need to raise awareness of mental illness. Every story in here is accompanied by a brief note or essay from the author, explaining their own personal connection to mental illness. Whether it’s themselves, or a friend or a loved one, every author here has been touched by the needs and problems and realities of mental health.

<snip>

The world is not a nice place to people with mental illnesses, partly because the illnesses themselves are so hard to deal with, but also—and sometimes “mostly”—because we as a society, as a human race, go out of our way to make them harder. Every time you casually misuse a word like “OCD” or “neurotic” or “aspergers,” you make it harder for the people who hear you to take those words seriously as actual medical conditions. Every time you tell a depressed coworker to stop moping, every time you tell a friend with ADD to stop screwing around, every time you tell a person with anorexia or bipolar disorder or post-traumatic stress syndrome to stop being such a drama queen, you’re playing the grown-up version of “See How Easy It Is to Bug Him?” Yes, it’s easy, but you’re better than that. We all are, and we have a responsibility to help each other however we can, for mental health just as much as physical health.

<snip>

But we can be better.

Spoiler

Table of Contents

Shannon Hale--------------- Ravenous

Seanan McGuire------------Cybernetic Space Princess from Mars

Mary Robinette Kowa------The Nature of Masks

Jessica Day George--------Playing Cards with the Corley

Howard Tayler----------------“No. I’m Fine.”

Sandra Tayler-----------------Married to Depression

Bree Despain-----------------The Author and the A-Word

Lauren Oliver-----------------Sections from the first draft of Pandemonium

Jacqueline Novak------------Notes from a Depressed Humor Writer as She Works on Her Humorous Book about Depression

Larry Correia------------------Deleted scene from Swords of Exodus

Shawn Speakman-----------Unused chapter from The Dark Thorn

Annette Lyon------------------Excerpt from Song for Anna

SJ Kincaid---------------------Original chapter one from Vortex

J Scott Savage---------------Early chapters from Farworld

Robison Wells----------------Epilogue to Feedback: Supernova

Dan Wells---------------------Free-write prologue to I Am Not a Serial Killer

Luisa Perkins-----------------Seeing Red        

Nancy Campbell Allen------Bonus chapter from Beauty and the Clockwork Beast: Marie

Sara Zarr-----------------------Family Portrait at the Kensington Manor Hotel

Aprilynne Pike----------------Three stories from the world of Wings

Kiersten White----------------Womb

Brodi Ashton------------------The first three chapters of The Echo Lives in Blackfoot

Josi Kilpack--------------------Book 8, which became Tres Leches Cupcake

Brandon Mull------------------Bonus excerpts from Beyonders book 2: Oracular Interviews

Jennifer Moore---------------Deleted scene from Becoming Lady Lockwood

Sarah M. Eden---------------From Longing for Home and Hope Springs: Farewells

Erin Bowman-----------------Prewriting from the Taken Trilogy

John C. Wright----------------Lunar Sacrament of Conciliation

Claudia Gray------------------Deleted chapter from A Thousand Pieces of You: Station 47

Brandon Sanderson---------Deleted scenes from the 2002 version of The Way of Kings

 

Excerpt from Sanderson's Essay on Kaladin in Altered Perceptions:

Spoiler

I owe a lot of my understanding of this—and indeed, my understanding of life itself—to some very good friends in college who struggled with mental illness. They opened my eyes to the issues people deal with by giving me as close to a firsthand experience as you can get without suffering from these issues yourself.

The chapters I’m including in this book are particularly poignant along these lines. For years after writing The Way of Kings in 2002, I knew that something major was wrong with Kaladin’s character. (Then named Merin.) He was a generic fantasy protagonist in a vibrant, well-built world full of amazing wonders. He felt bland, like a streak of grey on a gorgeous canvas.

I would spend nearly ten years reworking Kaladin, drilling down to who he was and who he needed to be. At the same time, I met my wife and fell in love. I began to see how people with depression are treated in the media and books, and I started to wonder. Where are our fantasy heroes with depression? This disease affects a huge percentage of the population. Does every character with depression need to be relegated to being in a story only about their illness? Couldn’t we have a character who was heroic, dynamic, interesting—and, oh, by the way, he has depression. Not something for the story to be about, just something that—like exists in so many of our lives—is another aspect of who he is, that reflects his worldview.

The person Kaladin became was shaped by two major changes, his psychology being one of them. 

 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

On 12/6/2023 at 10:56 AM, AliceRoseGold said:

Why this guy wants to help people all the time? What's is his internal motivation? What does it mean to him? How did get to be like that? 

The book is extremely long, I am at 2/3 point of it and I am getting a bit desperate.

He basically has two qualities he wants to save people and he is depressed, he is also inslaved for the most duration of the book, but I am not, I wish to be able to enjoy what I am reading. Mental health problems rappresentation is the reason why I wish to read this series in the first place. 

For the first component of Kaladin character I gathered two possible explanations of what "saving people" could mean for him from other answers on Internet.

- It is his trauma of not having been able to save his brother, but it doesn't make sense much, he expressed the desire to join the army before his brother was conscripted, always giving the same reason "save people" - what people, why save, why the military is the best way, save from who, save for what purpose. I mean what was at the base of young kaladin believes and aspirations? Even his father is not a fan of Kaladin joining the army.

Later in the book it is reveled that Syl is a spawn of Honor and nobility, so I presume honor is a main component of his character and the main motivation to "save people", but I have quite a few problems with this explanation. Honor is such a complex social construct, it a code of moral conduct deriving from our experiences, our believes, religion, cultural norms, role models. Honor and nobility are not feelings, they are belives. But the problem is that regardless of the book indecent size and predominance in it of the Kaladin chapters there is very little actual information of how he came to hold this particular belive and what it means to him. Honor and duty are concepts usually related to upholding the society's norms and values, it is about God, law and order, tradition.

I find the "honor" explanation of his character utterly unsatisfying, it feels more like a label applied to him and the character is forced to act upon it without any real meaning, this makes un for un infuriatingly boring and frustrating read, more than half of 1000+ pages book is dedicated to him let's not forget. 

But just thinking about it I came up with another possible internal motivation, one that would, at least for me make 100% sense. He wants to help people not in a rational way, not of the duty, but because he is an EMPATH, a super empath even. He must save everyone because he feels everyone's pain around he so strongly that he can't stand aside and watch. Empathy doesn't need to be rational, it doesn't need ulterior motives, it's pure instinct like we see with Kaladin actions most of the time.

What are your interpretations?

In addition, saving is what he grew up with. Lirin felt seeing my for the work he did, which was saving. Kaladin was also raised similarly. We see him caring too much about patients as an example. It is and always has been part time of him.

[discorat she/her]

it's kind of hard to explain if you don't work in health care. The job doesn't end when you leave the hospital. 

Kaladin grew up wanting to become a soldier because he saw it as a ''cool thing'' - because he was a kid and idolized it. Meanwhile he was being schooled by his father to save people. When you know how to save people, you can't just not do it. 

Also just having the knowledge of saving someone but being unable to do so is such a hard thing to struggle with.