What would happen if the Dor was in the Spiritual Realm

[Hmmm lies she/her]

So I figure that the Selish magic systems would cease to exist, and be replaced by something new, as the location based stuff is the whole foundation, and I feel it just couldn't work without that. It is possible, though unlikely, that the systems will still work, but anywhere, and maybe have different symbols used, I don't really know. Any other ideas?

[Treamayne]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:40 PM, Hmmm lies said:

So I figure that the Selish magic systems would cease to exist, and be replaced by something new, as the location based stuff is the whole foundation, and I feel it just couldn't work without that. It is possible, though unlikely, that the systems will still work, but anywhere, and maybe have different symbols used, I don't really know. Any other ideas?

Well, AonDor predates the splintering of Skai and Aona. So, we know some form of the Elantrian Magic functioned when thier shards were in the Spiritual Realm.

Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

In fact, like Awakening, AonDor had to be "discovered" and there are likely still Aons that have not yet been discovered. And since we know Awakeneing functions from the Spiritual Realm with the rule that "Commands must be spoken clearly in your native Language" then I think most of the Manifestations of Investiture on Sel would still function - but would also require native language.

Example: An Elantrian could make a Forgery stamp with Aons; and a MaiPon could draw instructions in the air like an Elantrian - but with their native script used in Forgery.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

Elantris Annotations (Feb. 14, 2006)

Quote

Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021)

Warbreaker Ch 46 (spoilers):

Spoiler

“We’ve figured out some things,” he said. “But Awakeners really haven’t been around that long. The more you learn about BioChroma, the more you’ll realize that there are more things that we don't know than there are things we do. Why are the specific Commands so important, and why do they have to be spoken in your native language?

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Hmmm lies she/her]

Oh, didn't realize AonDor existed prior to their Splintering, well that raises even more questions. Was it only usable in Arelon before? Did Forgery, Dakhor, Chayshan and Bloodsealing exist before? AonDor is clearly based on Devotion, while DakHor Dominion (assuming based on the skazes), but are/were Forgery and the others fueled by both? If anyone has any answers to any of these questions, please help me.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

Oh, didn't realize AonDor existed prior to their Splintering, well that raises even more questions. Was it only usable in Arelon before? Did Forgery, Dakhor, Chayshan and Bloodsealing exist before? AonDor is clearly based on Devotion, while DakHor Dominion (assuming based on the skazes), but are/were Forgery and the others fueled by both? If anyone has any answers to any of these questions, please help me.

We only have theories at this point - but it seems more likely that each Manifestation of Investiture is a mix of both Devotion and Dominion; only the ratios change (Stormlight Archive Spoilers):

Spoiler

Much like the Knights Radiant - where each True Spren is a mix of Honor and Cultivation, so each order is influenced by both; But some are heavily "weighted" (Honorspren are likely 90% Honor, Cultivationspren are 90% Cultivation) and some are more balanced.

For example: The fact that Aons themselves are tied to the land's shape (even before the Splintering) implies that Dominion was likely involved. One definition of the term is:

Quote

A kingdom, nation, or other sphere of influence

We also have this nugget from Khriss's Sel Essay in Arcanum Unbounded:

Spoiler

Sel is notable for being di-shardic, one of few planets in the cosmere to attract two separate Shards of Adonalsium: Dominion and Devotion. These Shards were extremely influential in the development of human societies on the planet, and most of their traditions and religions can be traced back to these two. Uniquely, the very languages and alphabets used today across the planet were directly influenced by the two Shards.

I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape.

Keep in mind that Sanderson has said that most Magic are not intentionally "created" - they are teh "natural" result of Shard+Planet+Inhabitants. WoBs (Cosmere Spoilers):

Spoiler

Quote

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

Quote

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

Quote

Questioner

From what I understand, Ruin and Preservation create the world together, and they created humanity as copies of the original humankind. So how did they give Allomancy to Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So the magic systems are kind of built into the setting and the world. And there are certain natural pathways that exist, in the same way there are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. They weren't 100% created by the Shards, but they also do have the Shards' influence on them.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

If you are unfamiliar with searching the Coppermind and Arcanum, here are some tips and tricks that may help (beware spoilers, depending on what you may not yet have read):

Spoiler

Using Coppermind and Arcanum:

• Go to the Coppermind, you can search a term in the upper right. On the top-right of the page (below the search bar) you will see a circle icon that denotes how "complete" the information is (e.g. solid green means it has all known information, split white/blck means unanswered questions, etc.)
  • Like any wiki, links to other pages appear the first time they are referenced
  • While reading you will find notes ([1]) that take you to the references at the bottom of the page. From there, if the reference is a WoB the link will redirect you to the Arcanum post.
  • One useful technique (at least on PC) is to click the [1] note to go to the references section, open the reference link in a new tab, then use the browser back button to immediately return to where you were reading.
• On the Arcanum, you can read all of the WoBs from a specific event by clicking: Discover > Events, then select an event.
• When looking at a Word of Brandon (WoB - or Peter/Isaac) in the Arcanum, you can:
  • Click on the event name to read all WoBs from that event
  • Click on a tag at the bottom to make a search of all entries with that tag - such as Sel
  • The top right of the WoB has a "Copy" button, to easily copy the WoB contents to add to a forum post spoiler tag (please use soiler tags to keep posts visually short and let new people avoid spoilers if they desire)
• Also, on the Arcanum, you can search for keywords using the search bar in the upper left
  • While searching a tag, the advanced search will be at the top of the page, so you can keyword search within a specific tag (example: Searching "AonDor" in #Sel tag)
• In any keyword or tag search the default view will be "accuracy"
  • Refine searches with Boolean (+/& for "and" to combine terms - e. g. AonDor+Splinter )
    • Note this method is unfiltered and will return more results than the tag and keyword search above
    • But they can be combined, by filtering a keyword and using a boolean search inside that tag.
  • You can be set that to "Oldest First" (avoiding spoilers) or "Newest first" (for recent additions) using the drop-down box
• For the Arcanum, learn more at Help and Navigation

Hope that helps

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG/Tips

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

So I figure that the Selish magic systems would cease to exist, and be replaced by something new, as the location based stuff is the whole foundation, and I feel it just couldn't work without that. It is possible, though unlikely, that the systems will still work, but anywhere, and maybe have different symbols used, I don't really know. Any other ideas?

No, all Selish magic systems would remain as they are, the only thing that would change is that they would be no longer tied to location, you would be able to use them anywhere. You would be drawing Dor directly from SR, instead of CR. Cosmere spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Selish magic systems exists because of Dominion and Devotion presence on the planet, that wouldn't change after Dor is fixed. Even AonDor and the city of Elantris predates the Splintering of those Shards.

 

8 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

Oh, didn't realize AonDor existed prior to their Splintering, well that raises even more questions. Was it only usable in Arelon before? Did Forgery, Dakhor, Chayshan and Bloodsealing exist before?

Yes, they all most likely existed prior as well, but as stated previously, just like Awakening, they had to be discovered first to be used. Not everything was discovered back then, we know Dakhor was a recent development:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Loose Threads

You'll notice, therefore, that I pile on the lose threads here. The most important one, of course, is the concept that Fjorden has gained access to the Dor (presumably recently.) The Dakhor are a newer development–Wyrn was just getting ready to use them against Elantris when the city fell on its own. (Dilaf wasn't the only Dakhor plant inside Arelon. But, those are stories for another time.) Anyway, I think I gave myself plenty of sequel room here. There are the questions about the Dor, about Fjorden, and about the seons.

That said, I can't honestly promise that I'll do an Elantris sequel. When I was writing during this period of my life (some seven years ago now), I was trying to create as many first books as possible. I was sending them all off to publishers, trying to get someone to bite on one of them so I could start a series. However, since I was a nobody, I had to write each book as a stand-alone as well. Publishers, I was told, like to get books from new authors that could stand alone or launch into a series. That way, they’re not committing to anything drastic, but can monopolize on popularity if it comes.

Elantris turned out to be one of the best stand-alones I did. I kind of like how it doesn't really need anything more to make it feel complete. And, I've got so many stories that I want to tell, I don't know that I'll be able to get back to this one. I guess it will depend upon how well Elantris sells, and whether or not Tor pushes me toward writing more books in this world.

Anyway, I've got plenty of things I could talk about if I do come back.

Elantris Annotations (May 19, 2006)

 

[Hmmm lies she/her]

Hmm, okay, so it would still be based on the shape of the landscape of Sel, but work on any planet. Would the Shaod still only take people in Arelon though?

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, Hmmm lies said:

Hmm, okay, so it would still be based on the shape of the landscape of Sel, but work on any planet. Would the Shaod still only take people in Arelon though?

We don't know how first Elantrians came to be, before Elantris was built, but now the city itself is important to Shaod, without it having the proper shape, the Shaod transformation can't be completed. I think it's possible that before Elantris was built there were no Elantrians, at least not in the current form of silvery, glowing people with powerful Aons at their disposal. There were people that could use AonDor, but in much weaker form. However I speculate, we don't know anything about it. 

It's possible that not only the land is important for Shaod, but just genetics - only people of Aonic descent are taken by Shaod now, and the same might be true in the past, thus the same would happen in the future if Dor was fixed. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Just like Alloamncy and Feruchemy is genetic and Feruchemy don't exists outisde of people with Terris genes in them.

WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

Elantris Annotations (Feb. 14, 2006)

 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer he/him]

I think this is precisely what will happen in the Elantris sequels. I think some mysterious events in Elantris 1 were parts of a precognitive plot by Devotion and Dominion, to hand down the Shards to a new Vessel (or two). Especially now that I know, cuz of this thread, that the first Elantrians and the city of Elantris existed before their gods' deaths.

I also think the Shaod could've been a power programmed by Devotion to advance her schemes.

If the Dor returns to the Spiritual Realm I think it would remove the "location affects strength" limitation of Selish magic. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer