Was Breeze Using Commands?

[Trusk'our he/him]

If I recall correctly, Breeze had a habit of speaking what emotions he was going to Sooth away from his targets. Additionally, he was a very, very skilled Soother, so much so that he had trouble telling when he or wasn't using his Allomancy at times. That screams of either Savantism or near Savantism to me.

In any case, I propose that Breeze wasn't actually using Commands that had Realmatic implications, but that he was close to doing so, as his Spiritweb had become so familiar with his Allomancy that it would have started subconsciously pushing him to uncover new secrets about it, similar to how Awakeners start to gain a greater inherent understanding of their Investiture as they collect more and more Breath.

This isn't too important really, more trivia for the most part, but it leads up to the second part of this post; I'd like to question what Commands would look like if used in Allomancy or Feruchemy, assuming that they would be applicable at all.

Would you be able to tweak your power, such as being able to make your Pewter Allomancy focus on specific aspects of physical augmentation, such as enhancing strength more but at the cost of reducing the enhanced stamina or speed, or using a Command to make A-tin focus on specific senses to reduce things like added pain sensitivity?

What do you guys think?

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If I recall correctly, Breeze had a habit of speaking what emotions he was going to Sooth away from his targets.

I think he did it once, when he was teaching Vin how to use emotional Allomancy (TFE ch 10). In his PoV chapters in WoA he didn't speak aloud while Soothing, but he did think about what emotions he was affecting. 

Quote

“My Soothers are mixed with the crowd,” Breeze said, his voice growing distracted. “The serving girls are a sign, telling my men which emotions to Soothe away. They will work, just as I do. . . .” He trailed off, concentrating as he looked into the crowd.
“Fatigue . . .” he whispered. “That’s not a necessary emotion right now. Hunger . . . distracting. Suspicion . . . definitely not helpful. Yes, and as the Soothers work, the Rioters enflame the emotions we want the crowd to be feeling. Curiosity . . . that’s what they need now. Yes, listen to Kelsier. You’ve heard legends and stories. See the man for yourself, and be impressed.”

 

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

In any case, I propose that Breeze wasn't actually using Commands that had Realmatic implications

Of course, those would be awfully long Commands.

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

but that he was close to doing so, as his Spiritweb had become so familiar with his Allomancy that it would have started subconsciously pushing him to uncover new secrets about it, similar to how Awakeners start to gain a greater inherent understanding of their Investiture as they collect more and more Breath.

I disagree. It was his way of getting into the shoes of people he was Soothing, thinking about emotions they feel, those which can stay or have to go. He is so experienced that he understood a Soother needs to know what others are feeling to make them feel more natural when emotional Allomancy was applied - to make them do what a Soother wants them to do. TFE ch 10:

Quote

“Besides,” Breeze added, “as I mentioned, a good Soother must be skilled far beyond his ability to use Allomancy. Allomancy can’t let you read minds or even emotions—in a way, you’re as blind as anyone else. You fire off pulses of emotions, targeted at a single person or in an area, and your subjects will have their emotions altered—hopefully producing the effect that you wished. However, great Soothers are those who can successfully use their eyes and instincts to know how a person is feeling before they get Soothed.”
“What does it matter how they’re feeling?” Vin said, trying to cover her annoyance. “You’re just going to Soothe them anyway, right? So, when you’re done, they’ll feel how you want them to.”
Breeze sighed, shaking his head. “What would you say if you knew I’d Soothed you on three separate occasions during our conversation?”
Vin paused. “When?” she demanded.
“Does it matter?” Breeze asked. “This is the lesson you must learn, my dear. If you can’t read how someone is feeling, then you’ll never have a subtle touch with emotional Allomancy. Push someone too hard, and even the most blind of skaa will realize that they’re being manipulated somehow. Touch too softly, and you won’t produce a noticeable effect—other, more powerful emotions will still rule your subject.”
Breeze shook his head. “It’s all about understanding people,” he continued. “You have to read how someone is feeling, change that feeling by nudging it in the proper direction, then channel their newfound emotional state to your advantage. That, my dear, is the challenge in what we do! It is difficult, but for those who can do it well . . .”

WoA ch 38:

Quote

Instead, he went back to what he'd been doing before Sazed had drawn his attention. He studied the refugees, trying to decide what each one was feeling.
This was the other great misunderstanding about Soothing. Allomancy wasn't nearly as important as observational talent. True, having a subtle touch certainly helped. However, Soothing didn't give an Allomancer the ability to know someone's feelings. Those, Breeze had to guess on his own.
It all came back to what was natural. Even the most inexperienced skaa would realize they were being Soothed if unexpected emotions began bouncing around inside of them. True subtlety in Soothing was about encouraging natural emotions, all done by carefully making the right other emotions less powerful. People were a patchwork of feelings; usually, what they thought they were "feeling" at the moment only related to which emotions were currently most dominant within them.
The careful Soother saw what was beneath the surface. He understood what a man was feeling, even when that man himself didn't understand—or acknowledge—those emotions. Such was the case with Sazed and Tindwyl.

 

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'd like to question what Commands would look like if used in Allomancy or Feruchemy, assuming that they would be applicable at all.

Probably not, Command is the focus for the Intent:

Spoiler

Argent

With Intent and Command, I've been thinking about how these things would apply to other worlds. On Nalthis they seem kind of folded together into the same thing, but I can't crack the metals on Scadrial and the Aons in Elantris. Because the Aons seem very Command-y, not very Intent-y, right? What about the metals?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aons, you should be able to eventually figure it out. With the metals, when I wrap this in, it's going to be very slight, and you shouldn't assume that every one of the permutations of the cosmere magics are going to require the same levels of... I need the freedom on each one. So Intent and Command can't be a major feature of every magic, otherwise it's too restrictive. You're going to end up with too many that feel the same. You can imagine, on Scadrial, that different metals would not have had to do what they do in the origin of the magic system. That is not necessarily innate, that is relating to the creation of the magic.

Argent

How it was built manually, almost, by a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense? You can imagine an in-cosmere magic system that is very similar to Allomancy, where each of the metals do a different thing than is in Allomancy.

Footnote: While the question was being asked, Brandon was nodding the entire time until he first spoke.
JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent.

Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that?

Chaos

Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.)

Brandon Sanderson

I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

Even in Hemalurgy Command only helps you but isn't needed, TLM ch 47:

Quote

“You need to know what you’re doing and why,” the woman explained. “It helps to whisper a Command as you work, though we find it isn’t strictly necessary. Trauma on the part of the subject is helpful as well.”

 

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

or using a Command to make A-tin focus on specific senses to reduce things like added pain sensitivity?

You already store those separately - each sense is in its own Metalmind. WoA:

Quote

Sazed tapped his vision tinmind, drawing forth some of the eyesight he had stored within it.
[...]
Suddenly urgent, Sazed pulled out a small ring—a scent tinmind— and slipped it on his thumb.
[...]
He spun, drawing auditory power from his hearing tinmind.
[...]
Clubs hobbled into the kitchen. He seemed a blur to Sazed. Even wearing his spectacles—to help compensate for the vision he was storing in a tinmind—it was difficult for him to see.
"That's it," Clubs said, his voice muffled—another tinmind was taking Sazed's hearing. "They're finally gone."

[Trusk'our he/him]

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think he did it once, when he was teaching Vin how to use emotional Allomancy (TFE ch 10). In his PoV chapters in WoA he didn't speak aloud while Soothing, but he did think about what emotions he was affecting. 

Didn't he do it at least once more in the city square when Kelsier fought the Steel Inquisitor? And that time it didn't seem to have been for Vin's instruction, he just did it because it felt right.

But I digress; I still don't think he was using actual Commands, maybe just that he was sort of close to figuring them out. But maybe not.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

You already store those separately - each sense is in its own Metalmind. WoA:

I was speaking of Allomantic tin, not Feruchemical.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Even in Hemalurgy Command only helps you but isn't needed, TLM ch 47:

True, but perhaps Commands could be used to broaden or better focus the application of Allomancy or Feruchemy with the right knowledge. I mean Marsh did figure out how to use his hands as the focal points for A-steel/iron, so perhaps Commands mixed with practice could make such abilities easier to obtain.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Probably not, Command is the focus for the Intent:

  Hide contents

Argent

With Intent and Command, I've been thinking about how these things would apply to other worlds. On Nalthis they seem kind of folded together into the same thing, but I can't crack the metals on Scadrial and the Aons in Elantris. Because the Aons seem very Command-y, not very Intent-y, right? What about the metals?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aons, you should be able to eventually figure it out. With the metals, when I wrap this in, it's going to be very slight, and you shouldn't assume that every one of the permutations of the cosmere magics are going to require the same levels of... I need the freedom on each one. So Intent and Command can't be a major feature of every magic, otherwise it's too restrictive. You're going to end up with too many that feel the same. You can imagine, on Scadrial, that different metals would not have had to do what they do in the origin of the magic system. That is not necessarily innate, that is relating to the creation of the magic.

Argent

How it was built manually, almost, by a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense? You can imagine an in-cosmere magic system that is very similar to Allomancy, where each of the metals do a different thing than is in Allomancy.

Footnote: While the question was being asked, Brandon was nodding the entire time until he first spoke.
JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

True, Commands probably aren't all that important for Allomancy or Feruchemy, but hey, any edge is useful.

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Didn't he do it at least once more in the city square when Kelsier fought the Steel Inquisitor? And that time it didn't seem to have been for Vin's instruction, he just did it because it felt right.

True, I forgot about that, TFE ch 33:

Quote

To her side, Breeze was mumbling to himself. “Yes, you’re afraid. Let’s focus on that. Soothe everything else away. Leave you terrified. That’s an Inquisitor and a Mistborn fighting—you don’t want to interfere with that. . . .”
Vin glanced back toward the square, where she saw a soldier drop his staff and flee. There are other ways to fight, she realized, kneeling beside Breeze. “How can I help?”

He doesn't just talk about which feelings he's Smoothing, he is explaining why he's doing that, which fits well with "Breeze is getting into the character," like an actor before a play. 

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I was speaking of Allomantic tin, not Feruchemical.

My bad. That makes more sense.

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

True, but perhaps Commands could be used to broaden or better focus the application of Allomancy or Feruchemy with the right knowledge. I mean Marsh did figure out how to use his hands as the focal points for A-steel/iron, so perhaps Commands mixed with practice could make such abilities easier to obtain.

I would say at most Commands would help you to figure out the intent you need. Once you get the intent right, you don't need any Command.

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Didn't he do it at least once more in the city square when Kelsier fought the Steel Inquisitor? And that time it didn't seem to have been for Vin's instruction, he just did it because it felt right.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

He doesn't just talk about which feelings he's Smoothing, he is explaining why he's doing that, which fits well with "Breeze is getting into the character," like an actor before a play. 

I always took that to be his technique for soothing crowds instead of individuals (helps him concentrate on a group of people).

 

[Duxredux he/him]

I have an alternate take on this.

Visualizing outcomes and verbalizing steps and parameters for complicated processes often can help people IRL improve their outcomes. I've seen visualization used by athletes in a mind-over-matter manner and with goal boards. The act of verbalizing forces a person to take subconscious half-formed ideas and connections and define them with the structure of language. I've found that the very act of explaining a concept makes me understand it better or highlight what I have yet to learn. Visualization and verbalization can help anyone, take Kelsier's method of training Vin on their first night in the mists as an example.

That said, humans in the Cosmere are not the same as IRL humans. They do not get sick as easily, the insane can get glimpses into the Cognitive or Spiritual Realms, they have Spiritwebs, and they have innate Investiture within their beings. So the idea is this: visualization and verbalization as we see in IRL has that extra bit that is Investiture in the Cosmere. The Commands and visualization that we see with Awakening follow the same principles as the IRL ideas I mentioned.

In other words, I think visualization and verbalization can and will help every Invested Art more than it would for the mundane IRL reasons. I don't know to what extent, but I think it would. Would I call those capital C Commands? Maybe, maybe not, the line gets blurry here as they are not required as it is for Awakening (except for the higher Heightenings). I also don't know what would be impossible without a formal Command. That said, I don't see why it wouldn't have a Realmatic impact even if it was only a small one. I think the causality is reversed in the OP, Breeze didn't start instinctively use Commands because he incredible Soother, he became an incredible Soother because he always visualizing and verbalizing his goals.