Feruchemical Pewter and Bones

[Trusk'our he/him]

I know that Allomantic pewter enhances durability as well as strength, but what about Feruchemical pewter?

Do the bones get thicker and denser to help compensate for the added muscle mass, but also help cushion from falling or getting punched? For example, if a Brute Tapped the strength of ten men, could he take a punch to the stomach without flinching, or get a two-by-four slammed into his side without breaking bones?

As another side note not worthy of its own post, what about height? I always imagined that a person's skeletal structure was a limiting factor to how much strength could be tapped, so a tall person could Tap more before it bulked them up to the point that moving proved impossible. But if the skeletal structure can be altered by F-pewter, would that mean that Tapping it in excess would make you taller? Would your hands and feet get bigger and beefier?

Just some musings I had.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Do the bones get thicker and denser to help compensate for the added muscle mass, but also help cushion from falling or getting punched? For example, if a Brute Tapped the strength of ten men, could he take a punch to the stomach without flinching, or get a two-by-four slammed into his side without breaking bones?

Well, a punch to the abdomen is about soft tissue, not bone (and usually in hand-to-hand, the point is to compress the abdomen and cause the opponent to lose their breath). As far as protecting bone, there is likely some residual effect. While not stated directly in WoA, Sazed fouhgt Koloss with F-Pewter for a while and none of his bones were broken by his wounds. Though, also consider that increased muscle mass means more padding and dispersed force rather than direct force applied to the bone. Joints would likely still be quite vulnerable.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As another side note not worthy of its own post, what about height? I always imagined that a person's skeletal structure was a limiting factor to how much strength could be tapped, so a tall person could Tap more before it bulked them up to the point that moving proved impossible.

Height is not the important factor here (shoulders, knees, hips, etc - all move in the same ways, regardless of height). Being musclebound is a layman term for a medical condition that just means that there is too much mass compared to the joints, tendons, and ligaments they work with; and cause a decrease in flexibility and range-of-motion. The simplest metaphor I can think of to visualize is:

Imagine a door. The hinge is the joint and normally you could open the door fully, until it was nearly flat against the wall. But, if you add a door stop at the hinge, the door no longer opens fully, as the increased mass prevents that range of motion. So, excessive pewter would make the hinge difficult to move, and limit its range of motion.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

know that Allomantic pewter enhances durability as well as strength, but what about Feruchemical pewter?

Do the bones get thicker and denser to help compensate for the added muscle mass,

No, at least the description of F-pewter is about muscle mass only. The magic of Feruchemy might siphon some of investiture to "strengthen" your bones so they won't snap under increased mass of your muscles, just like with F-iron. But this isn't "functional" power, it's just something that makes your body able to use Feruchemy. They would still normally break if hit directly (but more muscles absorb more impact energy, less of it is transferred into your bones thus you can get hit harder without breaking your bones). 

Quote

A pewter Ferring is known as a Brute. Pewter is used to store physical strength.[2] However, as opposed to the simply enhanced body granted to an Allomancer burning pewter, a Brute tapping a pewtermind gains muscle mass and becomes physically larger. The additional muscles allow the Brute to have increased strength

 

Spoiler

Calderis

I recently got the opportunity to ask you a question about Feruchemical steel and if it was a temporal effect and you told me to define that better. When tapping steel, the mind of the Feruchemist is sped up and physics affects their actions normally. When storing, their mind is not slowed and the effect seems tortuously difficult to amass. Storing generally seems to be the more dangerous/difficult option in Feruchemy, so does [Feruchemical steel] alter a person's personal relationship to the flow of time, with the disconnect between the Physical and Cognitive as a drawback of storing?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're asking. The mind-altering effects of [Feruchemical steel] are similar to the slight strength you gain from [Feruchemical iron]--it is your Spiritual nature adapting to the new influx of an attribute that it's not really expecting, and siphoning some of that investiture to make you capable of actually using it. So there is a slight temporal effect here, but nothing as big as I think you're looking for.

Footnote: This question is a follow-up to this question.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

For example, if a Brute Tapped the strength of ten men, could he take a punch to the stomach without flinching, or get a two-by-four slammed into his side without breaking bones?

Yes, but that's not because of his bones but that's because of his bigger muscles, absorbing and withstanding more energy. The stronger the muscles the heavier hits you can take on them. 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As another side note not worthy of its own post, what about height? I always imagined that a person's skeletal structure was a limiting factor to how much strength could be tapped, so a tall person could Tap more before it bulked them up to the point that moving proved impossible. But if the skeletal structure can be altered by F-pewter, would that mean that Tapping it in excess would make you taller? Would your hands and feet get bigger and beefier?

No. Your skeleton isn't altered by F-pewter. It won't grow. It's your muscles only.

[Trusk'our he/him]

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, a punch to the abdomen is about soft tissue, not bone (and usually in hand-to-hand, the point is to compress the abdomen and cause the opponent to lose their breath). 

Yeah, I should have thought through that statement more before posting it as whether the bone itself was helping out 

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

As far as protecting bone, there is likely some residual effect. While not stated directly in WoA, Sazed fouhgt Koloss with F-Pewter for a while and none of his bones were broken by his wounds. Though, also consider that increased muscle mass means more padding and dispersed force rather than direct force applied to the bone. Joints would likely still be quite vulnerable.

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but that's not because of his bones but that's because of his bigger muscles, absorbing and withstanding more energy. The stronger the muscles the heavier hits you can take on them. 

Makes sense to me; while there would be some increase in bone mass as a side effect to counter the extra strength provided by the Feruchemy (otherwise Sazed couldn't have folded a Koloss's face inwards without breaking his hand), most of the protection is probably from muscle padding itself.

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Height is not the important factor here (shoulders, knees, hips, etc - all move in the same ways, regardless of height). Being musclebound is a layman term for a medical condition that just means that there is too much mass compared to the joints, tendons, and ligaments they work with; and cause a decrease in flexibility and range-of-motion. The simplest metaphor I can think of to visualize is:

Imagine a door. The hinge is the joint and normally you could open the door fully, until it was nearly flat against the wall. But, if you add a door stop at the hinge, the door no longer opens fully, as the increased mass prevents that range of motion. So, excessive pewter would make the hinge difficult to move, and limit its range of motion.

I'm a bit confused by this; if you had two Brutes who varied drastically in height- one being barely five feet tall and the other being well over six foot- and they both were to Tap 500 lbs. worth of muscle mass, wouldn't the taller Brute have an easier time moving as the muscle is distributed more lengthwise than the shorter Brute, meaning they'd have equal strength but not equal bulk?

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm a bit confused by this; if you had two Brutes who varied drastically in height- one being barely five feet tall and the other being well over six foot- and they both were to Tap 500 lbs. worth of muscle mass, wouldn't the taller Brute have an easier time moving as the muscle is distributed more lengthwise than the shorter Brute, meaning they'd have equal strength but not equal bulk?

In reverse order:

• There is no such thing as "equal strength" Even if they somehow added the exact same amount of muscle mass, their strength will not be equal because there are too many factors involved (number of fibers activated, muscle flexibility, fiber capacity, etc.), not to mention the technique of how you use your strength matters in many situations (lift technique, balance technique, punch technique, etc.)
• It's not about mass distributed across length, it's about mass movement and interference (see below):

Spoiler

• So the "taller/longer" just has more length "balling up" into the joint, so it's about ratios. Therefore, 5 ft or 6ft, the ratio of muscle length to bone length to joint movement doesn't change. That ratio is what will determine when a muscle's mass losses internal flexibility and suppleness, or when the two muscles on either side of a joint will interfere with range of motion.

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

some increase in bone mass as a side effect to counter the extra strength provided by the Feruchemy

Possible, but unlikely to be as much as you are thinking. For example, the primary concern for muscle separation (a muscle contraction so strong and violent that it detaches from the joint) is the tendons themselves, not the bone density. And if the muscle tendons and such are influenced with the muscle itself (which pretty much has to happen) then scenarios like caving in the Koloss' face would mean the increased muscle and tendon mass of the fingers made an effective soft-tissue "brass knuckle" padding for the finger bones. Sure, there has to be some impact at the bone level, but I don't think it would be nearly as important as it is in F-Iron.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, I should have thought through that statement more before posting it as whether the bone itself was helping out 

Makes sense to me; while there would be some increase in bone mass as a side effect to counter the extra strength provided by the Feruchemy (otherwise Sazed couldn't have folded a Koloss's face inwards without breaking his hand), most of the protection is probably from muscle padding itself.

I'm a bit confused by this; if you had two Brutes who varied drastically in height- one being barely five feet tall and the other being well over six foot- and they both were to Tap 500 lbs. worth of muscle mass, wouldn't the taller Brute have an easier time moving as the muscle is distributed more lengthwise than the shorter Brute, meaning they'd have equal strength but not equal bulk?

This is a bit late but my 2 cents either way.  

A brute and a pewter savant kicking shin to shin is going to favor the pewter savant everytime. The muscle mass isn't going to save that feruchemist in the same way that pewter helps the allomancer.  

Equal strength, as stated above is never going to be a thing to compare.  Look at the worlds strongest men. Different body types favor different movements.  Eddie Hall is a far different beast than Brian Shaw the difference?  Shaw is a full head taller.  So yeah more body surface area is going to allow for more muscle mass before getting all bound up but that doesn't say a ton about the strength they are getting.  

 

I think its more than the bones to worry about though.  Pewter allomancy enhances bone density as well as muscle density and the strength ligaments and tendons. Everything about it is strengthened. Feruchemy increases muscle mass and strength and gets the necessary bonuses to use it.  

For the record I don't believe that feruchemical strength increases proportional to mass either though.  I believe that they gain far more strength per unit tapped and gaining the mass is the limitation built in to stop them from throwing entire buildings willy nilly.