Scadrial should have (more) ghosts

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

 

Kelsier exists as one notable ghost, but I think it would be neat if ghosts were a more significant part of scadrial.

They make good sense as a manifestation of investiture by preservation. They're literally someone's soul preserved after death. They make even more sense as a manifestation of investure by Harmony- they're preserved souls born out of death, out of ruin. Thematically, I just think they'd be a great fit. And they'd add a bit more of a mystical element to a world whose magic we're generally encouraged to approach in a scientific way.

Ultimately, I don't have particular story reasons to want them to be a more prevalent thing, I just think it would be neat if preservation and/or later harmony chose to preserve certain people after their death. But even though it's not the main reason I want them, there *are* interesting story possibilities. We know that cognitive shadows are similar to spren, and can potentially form bonds. While it likely wouldn't, and shouldn't, work exactly like knights radiant that still opens up interesting possibilities if the ghosts can become shardblade like objects or grant allomantic/feruchemic abilities somehow.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Kelsier exists as one notable ghost, but I think it would be neat if ghosts were a more significant part of scadrial.

They make good sense as a manifestation of investiture by preservation. They're literally someone's soul preserved after death. They make even more sense as a manifestation of investure by Harmony- they're preserved souls born out of death, out of ruin. Thematically, I just think they'd be a great fit. And they'd add a bit more of a mystical element to a world whose magic we're generally encouraged to approach in a scientific way.

Ultimately, I don't have particular story reasons to want them to be a more prevalent thing, I just think it would be neat if preservation and/or later harmony chose to preserve certain people after their death. But even though it's not the main reason I want them, there *are* interesting story possibilities. We know that cognitive shadows are similar to spren, and can potentially form bonds. While it likely wouldn't, and shouldn't, work exactly like knights radiant that still opens up interesting possibilities if the ghosts can become shardblade like objects or grant allomantic/feruchemic abilities somehow.

Well, you also should have noticed a "ghost" in the New Seran Broadsheets (Bands of Mourning). Also, we still have the Nicelle Sauvage (Nicki Savage) story to look forward to (which may or may not have "Ghosts" as her Broadsheet story did)"

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

I'm really curious about Boatload of Mummies because Brandon did mention on his updates that you'd worked on it for NaNoWriMo for the past couple of years which is really cool. And the title is incredible. I don't know if that's gonna be the final title, but that's what it's always been referred to. How have you been doing with that?

Isaac Stewart

Thanks for asking us. It's a project that I love. So I finished it. Finished a draft in September of last year. It's rough. It's a really rough draft. There's a lot of things that I'm still working through. I'm trying to narrow down the shape of the plot in a way because there's a little bit of--it wasn't inspired necessarily by these things, but it was after the fact that I realized, "Oh, it's part this, part that." It's sort of begins King Kong, if you imagined getting people on a boat. And then it continues as Death on the Nile. Then you get to a portion on an island. And then it ends The Mummy. And throw in a healthy dose of Venom. So it's like, "Okay, am I doing too much here?" And that's kind of where I'm at. You know, is this even a thing? Have I thrown too much in? Is this too much of a storyline? And i don't think it is. It really is in the end kind of a Raiders of the Lost Arc sort of story. You could pull out those some of those same elements and say, "Raiders of the Lost Arc starts out King Kong." But the basic plot line is there. There's going to be scenes in the current draft that are basically finished. I don't think they're going to change too much from the version that it is right now to the end.

Will it be called Boatload of Mummies? Probably not. I can't see that as a title of a Cosmere book, right? But we can affectionately call it Boatload of Mummies as long as we want. The working title is Book of Nails. And whether there's a series title or not, we'll have to figure that out if it's a story that people want to continue learning about.

But let me tell you Nicki Savage is so much fun to write. Don't expect exactly what you get from the broadsheets because she is writing to a particular audience, and has learned some skills from Allomancer Jack--though I do think Allomancer Jack's stories might be closer to the truth than Nicki's are.

You will see parallels between this story and some of the elements that are in the broadsheets. But she's basically: if you can imagine a Mary Poppins. who is incredibly interested in the supernatural, and is not afraid to beat up people. That's basically your character right there. And she's just, she's a load of fun. A boatload of fun.

Miscellaneous 2023 (May 28, 2023)

 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

They make good sense as a manifestation of investiture by preservation. They're literally someone's soul preserved after death.

That's not what Preservation wanted. That wasn't a right thing to do according to Preservation. People should pass into the Beyond, not stay behind. SH:

Quote

You didn’t think this was the end, did you?” God asked, waving toward the shadowy world. “This is the in-between step. After death and before . . .”
“Before what?”
“Before the Beyond,” God said. “The Somewhere Else. Where souls must go. Where yours must go.”
[...]
“No,” Fuzz said. “No, it is not right. If you touched it, you might just add to his power. You will go as all others.”
[...]
“Please . . .” Kelsier whispered, falling, sliding away.
This is not right. Fuzz’s voice.
[...]
“He didn’t have to leave,” Kelsier said. “He could have remained. Could have survived!”
“I told you, by this point rational people want to move on.” Fuzz vanished.

This is even more nonsensical because all of those CS would be trapped in the Well with Ruin, like Kelsier, unlike Kelsier they would not get free every 1000 years - only when the power was released by Vin would they get freed. Why made such entities only to be imprisoned forever?

Preservation couldn't have made a CS that was freed from the Well, as that requires expending part of his power, which would have imbalanced him even more, making Ruin more powerful. This isn't something that Preservation wanted to do. Almost all of his power was already thrown at Ruin's to stop him, which made them both impotent - making CS would only give Ruin advantage.

Spoiler

Zas

So what's up with the regeneration issue? With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time?

Brandon Sanderson

What are you talking about? Like which shards?

Zas

Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them.

Brandon Sanderson

Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world." So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance... They are a special case, because of that.

Zas

So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy?

Zas

You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? Like, if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, you give them an edge somewhere else by trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Imagine a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here?

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

 

8 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

They make even more sense as a manifestation of investure by Harmony- they're preserved souls born out of death, out of ruin.

That would mean Preserving without Ruining. Harmony would use Preservation's power but not Ruin's power, that's not Harmony thing. Life is already Preserving, death is Ruin, making dead people into CS would be even more Preserving imbalancing Shards Sazed holds. Harmony is all about balance, at least in theory, actions like that would only harm him. Sazed already Preserves too much.

And there is also the fact that most people want to pass into the Beyond, that's what rational people do. Living as a ghost in a desolate wasteland, with none to talk to, none to interact with, no physical things to touch is depressing. 

8 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

But even though it's not the main reason I want them, there *are* interesting story possibilities.

True.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's not what Preservation wanted. That wasn't a right thing to do according to Preservation. People should pass into the Beyond, not stay behind. SH:

This is even more nonsensical because all of those CS would be trapped in the Well with Ruin, like Kelsier, unlike Kelsier they would not get free every 1000 years - only when the power was released by Vin would they get freed. Why made such entities only to be imprisoned forever?

The people who held the power of the well prior to Rashek could be still around though.

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The people who held the power of the well prior to Rashek could be still around though.

True, they wouldn't be trapped in the well, like Kelsier. But we don't see them, I guess they just went into the Beyond, but the possibility is there. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

True, they wouldn't be trapped in the well, like Kelsier. But we don't see them, I guess they just went into the Beyond, but the possibility is there. 

(Roshar)

Spoiler

Sixteen ?

 

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

(Roshar)

  Hide contents

Sixteen ?

 

SA:

Spoiler

Huh, yeah, maybe. But how would he leave Scadrial? He should be still attached to it, he's still a CS. 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

SA:

  Hide contents

Huh, yeah, maybe. But how would he leave Scadrial? He should be still attached to it, he's still a CS. 

 

(Nalthis & Roshar)

Spoiler

So is Vasher/Zahel

The shades the Ire defended against were also CSs outside their home system. Presumably so was Hoid's "raft". We do not not know which CSs can leave their home system. Hence we cannot conclude that somebody who has become a CS by virtue of being a sliver would suffer from that issue.

[alder24]

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

(Nalthis & Roshar)

  Hide contents

So is Vasher/Zahel

This is a little different, Endowment invests with "no strings attached." Additionally Vasher knows how to suppress and control his Divine Breath, which might be helpful. I think this is limited to Returned only due to the nature of Endowment and her investiture, because I can't believe that Heralds, with more than 7000 years of experience, have never figured out how to get out of Roshar - something that Kalak tries to do so badly now, something that Ishar would be able to do with his Bondsmith Unchained powers etc. If it was so easy for every CS to do, Kalak would have done it already (Kel too).

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

 

40 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The shades the Ire defended against were also CSs outside their home system.

??? That didn't happen. The Ire in SH were worried that powers of Threnody would want to join the bigger Cosmere theater and they made some preparation in advance - the biggest are guards in the Threnody system that the Ire are sure won't allow any Shadows to pass through. Shades can't leave Threnody just like that:

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

SH ch 5-2:

Quote

“How would a Threnodite have made it all the way here?” the other guard snapped. “It defies reason, I tell you.” [...]
“Well, well,” the ancient creature said. “My foresight does not seem so foolish now, does it, Captain? The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage. Engage the device.” [...]
“I do not doubt your foresight, ancient one,” the guard captain continued. “But I do trust my forces on the Threnodite border. There are no shadows here.”

 

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Presumably so was Hoid's "raft"

It was never said that Spanky is a CS. Hoid called him a spirit and said "it's hard to move around in this subastral,' so it's also likely that Spanky came from Scadrial and never left it. 

Quote

“Oh, Spanky here is just a spirit. It’s damnably difficult to get about in this subastral—anyone physical risks slipping through these mists and falling, perhaps forever. So many thoughts pool together here, becoming what you see around you, and you need something finer to travel over it all.”

 

52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We do not not know which CSs can leave their home system.

All? We only know that Returned can leave Nalthis via unknown means. 

56 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence we cannot conclude that somebody who has become a CS by virtue of being a sliver would suffer from that issue.

It's the same investiture permeating their soul, the same source - Preservation. They should be tied to Scadrial just like Kelsier. It's possible for them to worldhop, but they need to know how to do it, and for know we've seen only Returned doing that:

Spoiler

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

And how would Sixteen get his body back? I admit, him being a CS would explain why he doesn't eat or drink etc, but there are some problems to resolve to make this work. In my opinion it's possible but unlikely. It's more likely that he's an A-cadmium/F-bendalloy Twinborn. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

45 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This is a little different, Endowment invests with "no strings attached." Additionally Vasher knows how to suppress and control his Divine Breath, which might be helpful. I think this is limited to Returned only due to the nature of Endowment and her investiture, because I can't believe that Heralds, with more than 7000 years of experience, have never figured out how to get out of Roshar - something that Kalak tries to do so badly now, something that Ishar would be able to do with his Bondsmith Unchained powers etc. If it was so easy for every CS to do, Kalak would have done it already (Kel too).

Well, the thing is that Spren and indeed Stormlight are bound by the same constraints. Seons, however, are not. Neither is roseite aether, or hemalurgic spikes or aviars or whatever Autonomy's army was made of. And neither are - elephants in the roon - the Dawnshards. Hence, is there a point i explaining the Returned specifically?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

??? That didn't happen. The Ire in SH were worried that powers of Threnody would want to join the bigger Cosmere theater and they made some preparation in advance - the biggest are guards in the Threnody system that the Ire are sure won't allow any Shadows to pass through. Shades can't leave Threnody just like that:
 

 

 

If they posted guards, the Threnodites could leave. What would be the point if they could not?

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It was never said that Spanky is a CS. Hoid called him a spirit and said "it's hard to move around in this subastral,' so it's also likely that Spanky came from Scadrial and never left it.

If Hoid could get a CS from Scadrial, what was the point of using the perpendicularity? Do you wish to propose that he had created a stash of CS boats just in case?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's the same investiture permeating their soul, the same source - Preservation. They should be tied to Scadrial just like Kelsier. It's possible for them to worldhop, but they need to know how to do it, and for know we've seen only Returned doing that:

Shards in general are not tied to a system.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, the thing is that Spren and indeed Stormlight are bound by the same constraints. Seons, however, are not. Neither is roseite aether, or hemalurgic spikes or aviars or whatever Autonomy's army was made of. And neither are - elephants in the roon - the Dawnshards. Hence, is there a point i explaining the Returned specifically?

Spren aren't Stormlight, they're Honor's raw investiture. Stormlight is gaseous, physical form of Honor's investiture. We don't know how Seons are transported out of Sel, but it's related to reasons why Selish magics work oddly like they do, so I would guess it's because Shardic investiture is in CR not SR where it should be (WoB), thus they're unique among Splinters. Both Aethers and Dawnshards (why would you even mention them???) do not apply here, they predate the Shattering, have a bit different rules and their investiture isn't from Adonalsium (WoB) - Aethers are more like little Shards. Hemalurgic spiks are like people - they contain a fraction of person's soul - people can leave their system with no problems, Aviars aren't heavily invested, they're like people as well. Splinters and CS are vastly different than all others, they are pure investiture in massive quantities, which replaces their soul entirely and ties them to the system the investiture is keyed to.

So yes, there is a point in explaining Returned specifically - they are the only CS we know of that are capable of leaving their original system. Either there is something really special with Endowment's investiture (which we know there is) and the nature of Returned (they have Divine Breath unlike other CS), or Vasher and other Five Scholars discovered a complicated way for any CS to leave their system (which we know is very hard but possible) is up to debate.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If they posted guards, the Threnodites could leave. What would be the point if they could not?

Because the Ire are worried about "the powers of Threnody" and made preemptive moves to prevent them from messing with Ire's plans? That's called being smart and planning in advance. It doesn't mean that Shades can leave Threnody or that they left it in the past. And you have WoB specifically stating it's hard for Shades to leave. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If Hoid could get a CS from Scadrial, what was the point of using the perpendicularity? Do you wish to propose that he had created a stash of CS boats just in case?

What? Because Hoid wanted to get into PR? What's another way of doing that and how is having a CS form Scadrial helpful in getting into PR? Hoid had plans on Scadrial, he wanted to get a Lerasium bead for example. I specifically said "Hoid never said Spanky is a CS." He might have just invested a Scadrian who recently died with a jar of Dor and use him as a boat. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Shards in general are not tied to a system.

I really don't know what you want to achieve by giving examples that have little in common with Cognitive Shadows. It's like comparing a grain of sand to the entire planet. Shards ARE tied to the system they invested in. They can't just leave it and invest in multiple systems at once. Their power however permeates the entire Cosere, it's everywhere, but they can't access that power, nor are they always aware of that power - when they are aware of that power, then they can tweak it. But they are still tied to the system in which they invested. Shards are in a vastly different league compared to CS, they aren't comparable. CS are dead men walking, Shards are literally gods of Cosmere.

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Spren aren't Stormlight, they're Honor's raw investiture. Stormlight is gaseous, physical form of Honor's investiture. We don't know how Seons are transported out of Sel, but it's related to reasons why Selish magics work oddly like they do, so I would guess it's because Shardic investiture is in CR not SR where it should be (WoB), thus they're unique among Splinters. Both Aethers and Dawnshards (why would you even mention them???) do not apply here, they predate the Shattering, have a bit different rules and their investiture isn't from Adonalsium (WoB) - Aethers are more like little Shards. Hemalurgic spiks are like people - they contain a fraction of person's soul - people can leave their system with no problems, Aviars aren't heavily invested, they're like people as well. Splinters and CS are vastly different than all others, they are pure investiture in massive quantities, which replaces their soul entirely and ties them to the system the investiture is keyed to.

So yes, there is a point in explaining Returned specifically - they are the only CS we know of that are capable of leaving their original system. Either there is something really special with Endowment's investiture (which we know there is) and the nature of Returned (they have Divine Breath unlike other CS), or Vasher and other Five Scholars discovered a complicated way for any CS to leave their system (which we know is very hard but possible) is up to debate.

I am first listing the evidence. The largest concentration of Investiture that we know of are the Shards themselves and the Dawnshards.

As for the "Forces of Threnody" the Ire developed a specific machinery against Cognitive Shadows and indeed some of them. Nor are they surprised to see a CS in the Scadrian system. Their troops know how they look like. That makes no sense unless Threnodites Shades (at least at that time) could leave their system. In addition there is the "Shade Gun" from the broadsheets. So the idea that Shades in general are unable to leave has a lot of evidence against it. And hence we must question the rest of the chain of reasoning.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am first listing the evidence. The largest concentration of Investiture that we know of are the Shards themselves and the Dawnshards.

Which are all incomparable to CS who are souls replaced by investiture, a fossil.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

As for the "Forces of Threnody" the Ire developed a specific machinery against Cognitive Shadows and indeed some of them. Nor are they surprised to see a CS in the Scadrian system.

Not true. They were very surprised to see a Threnodite CS in the Scadrian system. I quoted this earlier:

Quote

“How would a Threnodite have made it all the way here?” the other guard snapped. “It defies reason, I tell you.” 

 

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Their troops know how they look like. That makes no sense unless Threnodites Shades (at least at that time) could leave their system.

There is this thing called education. Because Alonoe was worried about Threnodites spreading across Cosmere (important note, others called this foolish, so it wasn't  something that all of the Ire agreed on: “Well, well,” the ancient creature said. “My foresight does not seem so foolish now, does it, Captain?"), she took precautions and thus guards learned how to recognize a CS. The Ire are a Cosmere-aware organization, with multiple posts across the whole Cosmere. Shades and Threnody are well known across the entire Cosmere (even Raboniel knew about them and she'd never left Roshar) and that's why members of such an organization would know how to recognise a CS and what Shades are. It's just that simple. A person submerging into the solid stone is pretty obvious evidence for a CS. 

Quote

“Looked like a figure, ancient one,” another guard piped up. “Saw it myself. It tested at the wall, sinking its fingers into the stone, but was rebuffed. Then it retreated, and I lost sight of it in the darkness.” [...]
“Perhaps,” the creature said, resting her fingers on the gemstone. “Perhaps there was someone, but the guard was wrong about it being a Cognitive Shadow."

 

Spoiler

Orrin

I've always wondered how the Threnodites are so well known. Beyond shades, we don't see powers there. How are they so well-traveled?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple of things going on here. One is: there are ways on and off Threnody, and any of the planets that you can get on and off without needing FTL do spread through the cosmere pretty well.

The other thing is: the event that created Threnody as it's known in the cosmere (which is the death of Ambition) has wide-reaching ramifications. It's a very famous place in the same way that most people know the Bikini Islands when they might not otherwise know it, if that makes any sense. It's the source of something that has had great implications for the entirety of the cosmere.

Halloween Livestream (Oct. 31, 2023)

 

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

In addition there is the "Shade Gun" from the broadsheets.

350 years after Era 1 takes place, much later, and Nazh didn't have that gun in SH. True, there is this thing, we don't know how it works or how those Shades can be stored there (if those really are fully grown Shades, not something like raw investiture, pieces of Shades, maybe that's a physical manifestation of Shades like Shardblade, or something else - those things from the gun don't stick around, they disappear which isn't very Shade-like). This gun was also able to rust and crumble the gondola, which isn't something that normal Shades were seen doing in the novela. This is the only evidence that Shades (or some form of Threnodite investiture) left the Threnodite system, but clearly not on their own, only as a part of this gun.

 

Once again I urge you to read the WoBs I gave you earlier. It's possible for Shades and Cognitive Shadows in general to leave their system, but this is really difficult and they must know what they're doing to achieve that. Shades on their own obviously won't be able to leave Threnody because they aren't even self-aware, they just wander aimlessly around the Forests of Hell without giving any care to people around them unless they break the Three Simple Rules. They have no reasons or any knowledge of how to leave the planet on their own - someone who is knowledgeable would have to take them out of the system on purpose. The same is for regular CS - they must know how to do that and that's hard to learn as even Kelsier and Heralds with hundreds and thousands of years of experience haven't figured this one yet. Sure, they are CS who did that, the Five Scholars - Returned - but they are the exception which might have something to do with Endowment's investiture and the nature of their Divine Breath - we don't really know what's going on with them. I do agree that Sixteen can be a CS (it explains why he doesn't eat, drink or carry out waste), however I find this unlikely because of the reasons presented above. It's still possible though.