Ishar and the contest of champions

[kelianmao]

On a reread of Rhythm of War, I noticed something about Ishar and the Dalinar vs Odium contest of champions that I don’t think I’ve seen discussed before. There is a lot about who the champions could be, or how either side (mostly Odium) may try to loophole their way out of the result. But the two challenging parties are always Odium and Dalinar (representing Honor). 

I propose that Ishar has managed to steal enough of Dalinar’s Connection with Odium to impact the agreement via unchained Bondsmith shenanigans. 

The timeline is as follows: 

• Oathbringer Ch 117, Odium agrees to a contest of champions with Dalinar (representing Honor). Odium chooses Dalinar as his champion. 
• Oathbringer Ch 118/119 "You cannot have my pain." Dalinar refuses. The champion must consent
• RoW Ch 111, Ishar tries to steal Dalinar's Connection to the Stormfather and to Odium[1], before being interrupted by Nightblood. Ishar uses this new Connection to open a perpendicularity[2], something he could not do previously.
• RoW Ch 112, Dalinar and Odium set terms. Including Dalinar becoming a Fused if his champion loses. Confirmation of consent, "A willing champion from each of us"
• RoW Ch 113 Taravangian ascends, Ch 114 he thinks over his agreement with Dalinar and decides he can beat him. 

So, Ishar has managed to take enough of Dalinar’s Connection to the Stormfather to learn how to open Honor’s perpendicularity. Does this mean he has also taken enough of Dalinar’s Connection with Odium to represent Honor in their little contest? 

Imagine if Ishar could select his own champion. Or, since consent seems to be important, somehow interfere with Dalinar’s selection of champion. 

This could throw a wrench into Taravangian-Odium’s plans. Since I doubt he knows about this Connection stuff between Ishar and Dalinar. He only knows what Rayse-Odium knew, which is not much, since in Ch 112 he was still raving about Dalinar working with Ishar all along etc. 

Also, could Ishar take Dalinar’s place as a Fused if/when Odium wins? True, the specific terms specifying this were agreed upon after Ishar had already siphoned off the Connection. However, since Dalinar is making agreements in Honor’s place (rather than as himself), I wonder if Ishar’s Connection with Honor would be enough. 

This could be an interesting parallel in arc 2, if Odium has a Herald working for him, while we have Fused like Leshwi presumably fighting for Honor. 

 

[1]

Quote

Ishar touched his hand to his own chest, creating a line of light between him and Dalinar. “I will take this bond to the Stormfather. I will bear it myself. I sense … something odd in you. A Connection to Odium. He sees you as … as the one who will fight against him. This cannot be right. I will take that Connection as well.”

Dalinar gasped, falling to his knees as something was torn from him—it felt as if his very soul was being ripped out. The Stormfather screamed: a terrifying, agonized sound, like lightning that warped and broke.

[2]

Quote

“Wait,” Dalinar said as Ishar stood and slammed his fists together. A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light.

Impossible … the Stormfather said in Dalinar’s mind. I didn’t feel it happen. How does he do this?

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, kelianmao said:

• RoW Ch 111, Ishar tries to steal Dalinar's Connection to the Stormfather and to Odium[1], before being interrupted by Nightblood. Ishar uses this new Connection to open a perpendicularity[2], something he could not do previously.

That's not true. Stormfather couldn't feel it, he thought that's "impossible" because of that. But that's very possible, Ishar has Bondsmith's powers, opening a perpendicularity is a part of those powers. Ishar brought many spren into PR, he sent Tukari to hunt for spren in CR, he transported his entire army into CR via a perpendicularity - something he must have done before, something his army must have done before and was prepared with boats on the other side (because land in PR means beads in CR - they need boats there). Ishar did this before many times.

Quote

“Wait,” Dalinar said as Ishar stood and slammed his fists together. A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light.
Impossible … the Stormfather said in Dalinar’s mind. I didn’t feel it happen. How does he do this?
You’re the one who warned me he was dangerous, Dalinar thought. Who knows what he’s capable of?
[...]
As they left the column of light, Dalinar could see Ishar’s soldiers stepping into the perpendicularity

 

2 hours ago, kelianmao said:

So, Ishar has managed to take enough of Dalinar’s Connection to the Stormfather to learn how to open Honor’s perpendicularity. Does this mean he has also taken enough of Dalinar’s Connection with Odium to represent Honor in their little contest? 

 

No, the transfer was severed before completion, no Connection wasn't stolen. The Stormfather and Dalinar are fine and nothing is lacking between them, nothing is lacking between Odium and Dalinar, instead their Connection grew more and Odium can show himself to Dalinar like to his own. RoW ch 112:

Quote

"Our Connection grows, Dalinar,” Odium said. “Stronger by the day. I can reach you now as if you were one of my own. You should be.”

 

[kelianmao]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

But that's very possible, Ishar has Bondsmith's powers, opening a perpendicularity is a part of those powers. Ishar brought many spren into PR, he sent Tukari to hunt for spren in CR, he transported his entire army into CR via a perpendicularity - something he must have done before, something his army must have done before and was prepared with boats on the other side (because land in PR means beads in CR - they need boats there). Ishar did this before many times.

Ishar may have been able to transport to the CR, but it was not via Honor's perpendicularity. Dalinar being able to open the perpendicularity is new; previous Bondsmiths were not able to do this (coppermind, see Stormfather and Odium's surprise in Oathbringer 119 when Dalinar first opens the perpendicularity). It's true that Ishar could've learned how to do it just by watching Dalinar, with no Connection shenanigans. But him doing it immediately after taking Dalinar's Connection makes it seem more likely to me that it is Dalinar's special Connection with post-Honor Stormfather that makes it possible. 

 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, the transfer was severed before completion, no Connection wasn't stolen. The Stormfather and Dalinar are fine and nothing is lacking between them, nothing is lacking between Odium and Dalinar

I don't agree with this either. Severing the glowing cord stopped Ishar from stealing all of Dalinar's Connection. But the stealing process definitely started already, since Dalinar feels ripping and the Stormfather screams.

Connection isn't singular, Ishar can easily take some of Dalinar's Connection while still leaving enough for Dalinar to think nothing is wrong. It is dynamic and if it can heal like spiritwebs, then the Connection between Dalinar and Odium could've strengthened afterwards even though Ishar took a portion of it. 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, kelianmao said:

But him doing it immediately after taking Dalinar's Connection makes it seem more likely to me that it is Dalinar's special Connection with post-Honor Stormfather that makes it possible.

To be fair, Ishar is an Unchained Bondsmith. He opened a perpendicularity - but we have no indication that he opened Honor's Perpendicularity. In fact, your own quote implies he did not . . .  (RoW Ch 111)

Spoiler

A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light.

Impossible … the Stormfather said in Dalinar’s mind. I didn’t feel it happen. How does he do this?

You’re the one who warned me he was dangerous, Dalinar thought. Who knows what he’s capable of?

Across the stone field, Szeth sheathed his sword just before it began feasting on his soul. Dalinar pointed Leyten that way. “Grab him. Get into the air. We’re leaving. Sigzil, Lash me.”

The fact that Stormfather could not feel it implies that Ishar is opening a singular perpendicularity (similar to how the surge of Transportation opens a small perpendicularity), not "Honor's Perpendicularity." The fact is, we just don't have enough information. We don;t really know how he pulled spren through, or how he sent his Tukari soldiers through. Until we get more information (SA5 or WoB), it's all conjecture and implication.

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Ishar was doing something where like he was Connecting spren...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Ishar was doing something, and so for instance, spren are gonna be played a little differently than a Cognitive Shadow would be played. Like, Cognitive Shadows, that's just not gonna be enough. But spren is much closer. This has to do with how much Investiture's involved and how they're Connected and things like this, but it's not quite enough. In most cases.

Questioner

So Ishar was doing something in addition to just Connecting the spren to the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He was indeed doing something more.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, kelianmao said:

Ishar may have been able to transport to the CR, but it was not via Honor's perpendicularity. Dalinar being able to open the perpendicularity is new; previous Bondsmiths were not able to do this (coppermind, see Stormfather and Odium's surprise in Oathbringer 119 when Dalinar first opens the perpendicularity). It's true that Ishar could've learned how to do it just by watching Dalinar, with no Connection shenanigans. But him doing it immediately after taking Dalinar's Connection makes it seem more likely to me that it is Dalinar's special Connection with post-Honor Stormfather that makes it possible.

That would imply that he sent his soldiers into Shadesmar yet another way. That really does not simplify things. It just looks to me like opening a temporary perpendicularity is a power of unchained Bondsmiths in general.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, kelianmao said:

Ishar may have been able to transport to the CR, but it was not via Honor's perpendicularity. Dalinar being able to open the perpendicularity is new; previous Bondsmiths were not able to do this (coppermind, see Stormfather and Odium's surprise in Oathbringer 119 when Dalinar first opens the perpendicularity)

This is not special, Navani can do that as well, every Elsecaller can do that too. That's a Bondsmith power, every Bondsmith can do that. The Stormfather and Odium were surprised not because of the perpendicularity, but because they were both seeing something else, something more than Dalinar.

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

Odium later said that “Dalinar Ascended”, which is significant. The fact that Dalinar claimed to be "Unity", with uppercase "U" is also significant. There was something Shardic going on there, not a simple perpendicularity. 

Spoiler

Mage

Could Navani open a perpendicularity when she got far enough in her oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

[...]

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

In the cosmere we've seen Investiture manifest in different ways all across the systems. So I was wondering, when it comes to the powers of Dalinar, is it possible for that power to open a Perpendicularity anywhere, say on Scadrial or any different planet? In a different way, where you could potentially combine all the Realms, open the doors for the Realms.

Brandon Sanderson

Let me say this very carefully. I'm being recorded now... Any time where you gather the right amount of Investiture in the right way, you are going to have kind of a version of a cosmere singularity, right? Which is where you are pulling the different Realms together into a kind of-- you are piercing between them with a large amount of Investiture. So what's happening with Dalinar is both the bug and the feature at the same time. But it is not necessarily the only way. And once things are kind of, once the Spiritual Realm is being involved, time and space don't mean anything anymore on the Spiritual Realm. That's your answer.

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3 hours ago, kelianmao said:

It's true that Ishar could've learned how to do it just by watching Dalinar, with no Connection shenanigans. But him doing it immediately after taking Dalinar's Connection makes it seem more likely to me that it is Dalinar's special Connection with post-Honor Stormfather that makes it possible. 

Ishar didn't finish stealing Dalinar's connection. If this perpendicularity was the result of Ishar's stolen connection to the Stormfather, the Stormfather would have felt that! He didn't, because Ishar was doing this with his Bondsmith Unchained powers, which are far more dangerous than anything else in Cosmere. He was opening his own perpendicularity, without the Stormfather's involvement.

Ishar most definitely opened a perpendicularity before because he must have sent his Tukari hunters into CR. Adolin fought them after all. 

3 hours ago, kelianmao said:

I don't agree with this either. Severing the glowing cord stopped Ishar from stealing all of Dalinar's Connection. But the stealing process definitely started already, since Dalinar feels ripping and the Stormfather screams.

Then why isn't anything lacking if something was stolen? The Stormfather would feel that, Odium would feel that. The simplest answer is it wasn't, Connection snapped back to its place. Connection is a line, it can't split and Connect several people at once, it's a line with two ends - you see this with Nale's Oathpact Connection, he is Connected with each Herald with a separate line, not one line. 

If Stormfather was connected to Ishar he would feel and know that and he could break that Connection at will. It would be like stealing Nahel Bond via Hemalurgy:

Spoiler

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

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[kelianmao]

Bondsmiths have much finer control over Connection, it’s practically their purpose. They should be able to do stuff that Hermalurgy cannot. 

They can manipulate Shard level Connection, create Light from nothing. It’s likely they destroyed a planet, and (intentionally or not) enslaved the entire Singer race. 

Not to mention Ishar has millenia of experience, and is wielding his Honorblade. It's perfectly feasible he could steal/copy a portion of a person’s Connection, while leaving the original Connection intact. 

 

Also, Ishar believes he is the Almighty, waiting to fight Odium’s champion. While belief doesn’t mean truth, he's an unchained Bondsmith with access now to the genuine Connection between the key players. Who knows what he can do with it.

When he was briefly sane, he claimed he could reset the Oathpact. Would he even need a bond with the Stormfather to represent Honor? We saw him forcibly form Connections between the Windrunners and the ground. Why wouldn't he be able to force his way into a pact between Honor and Odium?

[Master Silver]

I think everyone agrees that Ishar could do this, but the point they are making is that the process was interrupted so the connection snapped back into place. The Storm Father is no ordinary spren, just like the sibling, destroying or corrupting them or in this case stealing a connection takes a lot of time. The process was interrupted and both Dalinar and the Storm Father were fighting against the theft.