Becoming invincible for a second or two

[Nightstar The Bright]

Allomantic Pewter strengthens the body (among other things). Vin thinks that not only her muscles are strengthened, but her skin and bones are too. Now I wonder if this aspect of Allomantic Pewter can be used to become invincible for a time. 

Regular flaring isn’t close to the Allomantic strength needed to become invincible. However someone with duralumin (and a large enough amount of pewter) should be able to do it. Simply burn all of the pewter at once when you’re going to get hit and your body should be protected. 

I think Vin already did this at the assembly fight in the Well of Ascension. She headbutted a Thug with such strength that (even with his pewter burning) his head exploded. Hitting your head with such force against someone else should hurt, enough to break things or at least go unconscious. As this didn’t happen I think she became invincible (for a second or two).

To become invincible for a while you need to do the following:

• Be born a Mistborn / collect the appropriate spikes and spike yourself. 

 

• Swallow a lot of pewter and some duralumin.

 

• burn both metals just as something (sword/arrow/bullet) hits you. This way you’ll be protected from the object, although it must be noted that your invincibility will only last a second. 

What do you guys think of this theory? Is it plausible?

[Longshot97 he/him]

Seems plausible. Vin pulls this stunt whenever she duralumin-boosts her A-Steel, in order to prevent herself from being torn apart.

Probably, to achieve invincibility against modern weapons, you would need Wayne-at-the-end-of-TLM levels of Pewter to survive.

[Silver Phantom he/him]

4 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Allomantic Pewter strengthens the body (among other things). Vin thinks that not only her muscles are strengthened, but her skin and bones are too. Now I wonder if this aspect of Allomantic Pewter can be used to become invincible for a time. 

Regular flaring isn’t close to the Allomantic strength needed to become invincible. However someone with duralumin (and a large enough amount of pewter) should be able to do it. Simply burn all of the pewter at once when you’re going to get hit and your body should be protected. 

What do you think of also being able to do it if you are a pewter/Nicrosil  twinborn and storing a ton and tapping it all at once?

[Nightstar The Bright]

14 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Probably, to achieve invincibility against modern weapons, you would need Wayne-at-the-end-of-TLM levels of Pewter to survive.

I assume you meant the amount of bendalloy he had, I don’t remember him having an insanely large amount of pewter. 
 

10 hours ago, Silver Phantom said:

What do you think of also being able to do it if you are a pewter/Nicrosil  twinborn and storing a ton and tapping it all at once?

That would work yeah.

[Treamayne]

16 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

What do you guys think of this theory? Is it plausible?

Invincible, no. Resilient yes.

Keep in mind that while Vin's skull didn't cave in from the damage she did to the thug, she did lose conciousness as soon as the Duralumin Pewter ran out, suffered a concussion, and needed days to recover (granted there were other injuries to heal too).

WoA Ch 38

Spoiler

Where have I seen this man before?

Her vision darkened. However, as the Thug constricted his grip, he leaned closer, closer, closer….

She didn’t have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent’s hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face.

The man’s head exploded as easily as the eyeball had earlier.

Vin gasped for breath and pushed the headless corpse off her. Elend stumbled back, his suit and face sprayed red. Vin stumbled to her feet. Her vision swam as her pewter dissipated—but even through that, she could see an emotion on Elend’s face, stark as the blood on his brilliant white uniform.

Horror.

No, she thought, her mind fading. Please, Elend, not that….

She fell forward, unable to maintain consciousness.

<Snip>

lend sighed. He’d hoped that, in the confusion, Penrod wouldn’t remember the deadline. “If they don’t choose a new leader today, Ham, then I get to retain the crown. They’ve already wasted their grace period.”

Ham sighed. “And if there are more assassins?” he asked quietly. “Vin will be laid up for a few days, at least.”

So, she still takes damage, she can just continue to function despite the damage (at least until the Pewter runs out). I also doubt that Duralumin+Petwer would make anybody blade or bullet proof - they would still get cut or shot (possibly taking less damage, and definitely able to function despite the damage).

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Invincible, no. Resilient yes.

Keep in mind that while Vin's skull didn't cave in from the damage she did to the thug, she did lose conciousness as soon as the Duralumin Pewter ran out, suffered a concussion, and needed days to recover (granted there were other injuries to heal too).

WoA Ch 38

  Hide contents

Where have I seen this man before?

Her vision darkened. However, as the Thug constricted his grip, he leaned closer, closer, closer….

She didn’t have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent’s hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face.

The man’s head exploded as easily as the eyeball had earlier.

Vin gasped for breath and pushed the headless corpse off her. Elend stumbled back, his suit and face sprayed red. Vin stumbled to her feet. Her vision swam as her pewter dissipated—but even through that, she could see an emotion on Elend’s face, stark as the blood on his brilliant white uniform.

Horror.

No, she thought, her mind fading. Please, Elend, not that….

She fell forward, unable to maintain consciousness.

<Snip>

lend sighed. He’d hoped that, in the confusion, Penrod wouldn’t remember the deadline. “If they don’t choose a new leader today, Ham, then I get to retain the crown. They’ve already wasted their grace period.”

Ham sighed. “And if there are more assassins?” he asked quietly. “Vin will be laid up for a few days, at least.”

So, she still takes damage, she can just continue to function despite the damage (at least until the Pewter runs out). I also doubt that Duralumin+Petwer would make anybody blade or bullet proof - they would still get cut or shot (possibly taking less damage, and definitely able to function despite the damage).

Well we have some other examples we can pull from.  The scene paints an awesome picture but doesn't explain everything. 

We dont know exactly how much pewter Vin had in her system at the time and the more pewter the more resilient she would be. I personally think the losing consciousness could have been from any number of the wounds she sustained and the simple loss of pewter is enough to put her into a pseudo pewter drag thanks to the damage she had sustained elsewhere. 

A setup of cast ball bearings alternating pewter and Duralumin so that the Duralumin use always leads to a new layer of pewter being burnable would fix this.  

Another thing to consider is Tarson. Tarson was Kolossblooded as well but I believe his being a pewter savant had more to do with his toughness than the kolossblooded genetics.  Tarson didn't even have access to duralumin and he was tanking body shots multiple times in alloy of law. Wax made a point of needing to shoot him in the head to put him down. Who is to say that enough pewter and duralumin couldn't make him bulletproof even to a headshot.  The process of duralumin is to condense all of the pewter into a single burst. I imagine that if pewter adds durability the the duralumin would condense all of that durability at once... and even a pitiful +1ac bonus from a spell can make your character invulnerable for a turn if applied hundreds of times instantly. 

Again this trick could work over and over with the correct ball bearing setup for pewter alternating duralumin layering. 

Mistborn with more modern technology would be terrifying... especially if you can burn anything piercing you as well. They could have large piercings with alternating metals to access for duralumin pushes as well. They could swallow a kilogram of metals with no worries of poisoning thanks to aluminum as well. $ would be the only thing limiting a mistborn in more modern day and they could totally set up a man of steel sort of pewter+ duralumin chain. 

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Tarson didn't even have access to duralumin and he was tanking body shots multiple times in alloy of law. Wax made a point of needing to shoot him in the head to put him down.

Could you please quote your reference here, because I'm not finding it. AoL:

Spoiler

Ch 6:

Quote

With Marasi mostly out of the way, Waxillium’s mind cleared, and he found himself able to move again. He shot Tarson, though he couldn’t bring himself to aim for the chest, not with Marasi stumbling nearby. He settled on dropping Tarson with a shot to the arm.

Ch 11:

Quote

Tarson said as he walked up. Tarson’s arm was in a sling; most men would still be in bed after taking a shot like he had. But Tarson was a Pewterarm and koloss-blooded. He’d heal quickly.

So, not invulnerable - injured and healing.

Ch 18:

Quote

That Pewterarm was still wearing Wayne’s lucky hat; the man had ducked behind cover when Wax had thrown the dynamite, and had only just emerged. He didn’t appear to have been injured badly; a few scrapes to his face, the sort of thing a Pewterarm could ignore. Too bad. But at least the hat was doing all right.

The only mention of Tarson being injured before Wax's headshot (that I could find)

Ch 19:

Quote

The head was the best way to drop a Pewterarm. Only, Waxillium couldn’t see the head. Could he shoot the gun? Marasi’s face was in the way. The knees? He might be able to hit a knee. No. A Pewterarm would ignore most hits—if the damage wasn’t immediately lethal, he’d stay up, and he’d shoot.

It had to be the head.

He took the head shot to prevent Tarson from shooting Marasi - not because Tarson had survived body shots.

I guess maybe the OP should define what they mean by "invulnerable." If they mean "take no damage" then I don't think any combination of Pewter and Duralumin can manage that from otherwise-lethal attacks. If they mean "survive and heal what would otherwise be lethal" then sure, we have plenty examples of the latter.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Could you please quote your reference here, because I'm not finding it. AoL:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ch 6:

Ch 11:

So, not invulnerable - injured and healing.

Ch 18:

The only mention of Tarson being injured before Wax's headshot (that I could find)

Ch 19:

He took the head shot to prevent Tarson from shooting Marasi - not because Tarson had survived body shots.

I guess maybe the OP should define what they mean by "invulnerable." If they mean "take no damage" then I don't think any combination of Pewter and Duralumin can manage that from otherwise-lethal attacks. If they mean "survive and heal what would otherwise be lethal" then sure, we have plenty examples of the latter.

Ah okay. These seem to disprove that. I don't have a book to look through for anything else. I just remember that he had been shot and was back fighting shortly after. It makes perfect sense that Wax saw the headshot as the only viable option to stop Tarson from shooting in retaliation.  

My opinion that duralumin + pewter could make you nearly bulletproof does still stand though... if it is actually causing your body to become denser in addition to stronger.  We know that pewter alone causes the thug to be tougher and have harder bones at least.  We know that duralumin plus whatever amount of pewter Vin had left was enough to keep her skull in tact while destroying the skull of another pewterarm. 

I really think this has to point to all of the tissue becoming denser. There is little I can think of that would support that the softer tissue is strengthened like the bones are but if it is universal increase in durability I still think that enough pewter plus duralumin should lead to some very temporary Luke Cage levels of invulnerability. 

But if the skin and other soft tissues don't get denser or stronger then perhaps you are right that no amount can make you bullet proof.  If they do then there would be an amount when paired with duralumin that would eventually give you enough density to able to stop a bullet though.  

Caliber differences would matter a ton for stopping bullets and how much pewter you would need.  I don't think it is entirely out of the question. With other magics offering similar enhancements although this is just my own head cannon:

Spoiler

Stone sinew and cohesion seem like they may be able to pull off some luke cage levels of invulnerability.  I don't know that there is anything pointing to it being like pewter other than in my own mind imagining the stonewards are the thugs of stormlight. 

So I am happy to be convinced either direction on this. We know Vins skull was strong enough to not get destroyed with duralumin pewter while demolishing a typical pewter burners head.  If the OP is specific about a duralumin pewter burst then I don't see how it can be ruled out. Duralumin is as near infinite as you can get so long as you have access to infinite amounts of the metal in your body to burn. The possible effects of it span the total power potential from all of the pewter a mistborn could have access to burning in a single moment. Stomach full... plus piercings potentially.  Vin did what she did with a fraction of what could potentially be done. 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I really think this has to point to all of the tissue becoming denser. There is little I can think of that would support that the softer tissue is strengthened like the bones are

I feel like we have had this conversation before.

But the converse would also be true - if Pewter changed density, then (like F-Iron) it would also have to change mass, and therefore weight. That would affect Pushes and Pulls, but we defintitely do not see that happening anywhere.

TFE explicitely states the soft tissue is "enhanced" but does not specify how. However, I doubt the enhancement is based on density - afterall Brandon has already specifically chosen to not use that for F-Iron (which makes more sense to have such a connection) because he does not want the Metallic Arts to allow for being bullet-proof.

Spoiler

WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.
The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

TFE Ch 7:

Quote

“That’s pewter. It enhances your physical abilities, making you stronger, more able to resist fatigue and pain. You’ll react more quickly when you’re burning it, and your body will be tougher.”

Vin flexed experimentally. Her muscles didn’t seem any bigger, yet she could feel their strength. It wasn’t just in her muscles, however—it was everything about her. Her bones, her flesh, her skin. She reached out to her reserve, and could feel it shrinking.

“I’m running out,” she said.

Eleventh Metal:

Spoiler

Shezler might have broken some of his bones with his battering; the man had pewter too, after all. The nobleman lay in his own blood though, twitching. Pewter could save you from a lot of things, but not a slit throat.

The man choked on his own blood. “No,” he hissed.

 

So, it's more probable that the "tougher" change to skin is something like surface tension and elasticity (making lacerations and abrasions less likely to pierce flesh) and ligaments/tendons are specifically enhanced to withstand the stress of the Allomancer's own strength, rather than defend against impact damage.

I don't know if you have read Codex Alera or not (highly recommended, if not) but I think Pewter's effect in this regard is like Metalcrafting. Pewter might not prevent much of the damage from happeneing, but it does allow the Pewterarm to function despite damage and heal from it faster - which is why Sazed said (HoA Epigraph):

Spoiler

Becoming a pewter savant is dangerous, as it requires pushing the body so hard in a state where one cannot feel exhaustion or pain. Most accidentally kill themselves before the process is complete, and in my opinion, the benefit isn't worth the effort.

So, he specifically calls out the danger being that you take wounds and die from damage Pewter allowed you to ignore - not that you would take no damage in the first place.

From the same fight scene - we see that Pewter+Duralumin specifically does not prevent damage to soft tissue, or even smaller bones: (WoA Ch 38):

Spoiler

One at a time, Vin thought.

The Thug nearest her swung his weapon. She needed to surprise him. So, she didn’t dodge or block. She simply took his blow in the side, burning duralumin and pewter to resist. Something cracked within her as she was hit, but with duralumin, she was strong enough to stay up. Wood shattered, and she continued forward, slamming her dagger into the Thug’s neck.

He dropped, revealing a surprised Coinshot behind him. Vin’s pewter evaporated with the duralumin, and pain blossomed like a sunrise in her side. Even so, she yanked her dagger free as the Thug fell, still moving quickly enough to drop the Coinshot with a dagger in the chest.

Then she stumbled, gasping quietly, holding her side as two men died at her feet.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I feel like we have had this conversation before.

But the converse would also be true - if Pewter changed density, then (like F-Iron) it would also have to change mass, and therefore weight. That would affect Pushes and Pulls, but we defintitely do not see that happening anywhere.

TFE explicitely states the soft tissue is "enhanced" but does not specify how. However, I doubt the enhancement is based on density - afterall Brandon has already specifically chosen to not use that for F-Iron (which makes more sense to have such a connection) because he does not want the Metallic Arts to allow for being bullet-proof.

  Reveal hidden contents

WoB:

TFE Ch 7:

Eleventh Metal:

  Reveal hidden contents

Shezler might have broken some of his bones with his battering; the man had pewter too, after all. The nobleman lay in his own blood though, twitching. Pewter could save you from a lot of things, but not a slit throat.

The man choked on his own blood. “No,” he hissed.

 

So, it's more probable that the "tougher" change to skin is something like surface tension and elasticity (making lacerations and abrasions less likely to pierce flesh) and ligaments/tendons are specifically enhanced to withstand the stress of the Allomancer's own strength, rather than defend against impact damage.

I don't know if you have read Codex Alera or not (highly recommended, if not) but I think Pewter's effect in this regard is like Metalcrafting. Pewter might not prevent much of the damage from happeneing, but it does allow the Pewterarm to function despite damage and heal from it faster - which is why Sazed said (HoA Epigraph):

  Reveal hidden contents

Becoming a pewter savant is dangerous, as it requires pushing the body so hard in a state where one cannot feel exhaustion or pain. Most accidentally kill themselves before the process is complete, and in my opinion, the benefit isn't worth the effort.

So, he specifically calls out the danger being that you take wounds and die from damage Pewter allowed you to ignore - not that you would take no damage in the first place.

From the same fight scene - we see that Pewter+Duralumin specifically does not prevent damage to soft tissue, or even smaller bones: (WoA Ch 38):

  Reveal hidden contents

One at a time, Vin thought.

The Thug nearest her swung his weapon. She needed to surprise him. So, she didn’t dodge or block. She simply took his blow in the side, burning duralumin and pewter to resist. Something cracked within her as she was hit, but with duralumin, she was strong enough to stay up. Wood shattered, and she continued forward, slamming her dagger into the Thug’s neck.

He dropped, revealing a surprised Coinshot behind him. Vin’s pewter evaporated with the duralumin, and pain blossomed like a sunrise in her side. Even so, she yanked her dagger free as the Thug fell, still moving quickly enough to drop the Coinshot with a dagger in the chest.

Then she stumbled, gasping quietly, holding her side as two men died at her feet.

 

I think that last example of Vin using pewter and duralumin early in the fight is a great one. It still doesn't specify how much pewter she had which would continue to add the effects more and more. She had many other metals in her for the fight. Had she had the same mass of all the other metals made up of pewter instead the scene could have looked totally different. 

I can see that density may not be the best way to describe it. Surface tension and elasticity could very well be what we are seeing effected. 

Spoiler

Something akin to stonesinew.

But I can concede. I think pewter+duralumin is a really expensive replacer for Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical gold. If you want to make an immortal Miles has shown us the best way to do that. Pewter just makes everything else in life better. That is why that specific twinborn combo is so popular.  

Rules of cool just make the scene look differently. 

Kilos worth of pewter being burnt at once with duralumin may or may not be enough to face tank a shot to center mass luke cage style. 

Pewter + gold does allow you to nit up that hole in your chest as you walk forward like wolverine. 

The pewter gold twinborn is a far better way of doing it. 

Duralumin would just require way to much pewter and the odds of Brandon writing any scene where someone burns a stomach full of pewter just to answer this question is highly unlikely.