The War Against Odium

[Voidus]

Do we have any more information on how Nicrosilminds work yet? last I saw was the MAG which said that you could basically store any kind of feruchemical charge as just a general 'investiture' charge, so I suppose this could potentially work for allomancy as well, and on the plus side you shouldn't need 32 seperate Nicrosilminds either.

[Chaos he/him]

Do we have any more information on how Nicrosilminds work yet? last I saw was the MAG which said that you could basically store any kind of feruchemical charge as just a general 'investiture' charge, so I suppose this could potentially work for allomancy as well, and on the plus side you shouldn't need 32 seperate Nicrosilminds either.

We know nothing about nicrosilminds. I personally like the idea that every "type" of Investiture is a separate nicrosilmind, like tinminds. However, this is directly refuted in the RPG, so...

The reason I say this is because if you could store any Feruchemy as a general Investiture charge, then the Lord Ruler could store some stupid attribute like weight or warmth into nicrosilminds, and then withdraw it as age. Doing that would break the whole point of the Lord Ruler spending time aged, and everything Brandon says confirms that the Lord Ruler actually stores age.

One thing I know for certain: Allomancy and Feruchemy Investitures need to be strictly separate, at the very least. You shouldn't be able to store an Allomantic Investiture (the effect of a metal) and withdraw it as Feruchemical age.

[dj26792 he/him]

On the side topic of Nicrosilminds I assumed that storing investure and tapping it would make you a weaker or stronger allomancer, ie Kelsier was weaker than Vin who was weaker than Elend, but if Vin had stored investiture for a while she would have been equal to Kelsier, and then she could have tapped it to be as strong as Elend.

In regards to the main theory, I like it and I think that I have a reasonable reason for Hoid to have acted as he did on Nalthis, he was making sure war didn't break out weakening troops he would need to be ready to fight Odium if he ever attacked Nalthis, he was probably also talking to Endowment, whether to maintain or establish an alliance.

[dyring]

About Nicrosilminds and storing warmth to withdraw as age.

Nicrosil... you think they could make that in the final Empire? Perhaps the Lord Ruler could ahve done it that way, and knew all about it, but could not get his hands on the metal?

If its made partly from Silicon, well, a quick Wiki search has that as first made in 1824. Thats propably too high tech for the final Empire.

[Windrunner he/him]

In regards to the main theory, I like it and I think that I have a reasonable reason for Hoid to have acted as he did on Nalthis, he was making sure war didn't break out weakening troops he would need to be ready to fight Odium if he ever attacked Nalthis, he was probably also talking to Endowment, whether to maintain or establish an alliance.

I like this a lot. It makes a great deal of sense. Especially if Odium were to ever go to Nalthis, Hoid would want people there who could directly try to counter him, even to fight Voidbringers if possible. Good idea!

About Nicrosilminds and storing warmth to withdraw as age.

Nicrosil... you think they could make that in the final Empire? Perhaps the Lord Ruler could ahve done it that way, and knew all about it, but could not get his hands on the metal?

If its made partly from Silicon, well, a quick Wiki search has that as first made in 1824. Thats propably too high tech for the final Empire.

This is always what I've thought as well. I think if the Lord Ruler had chromium he would have used it on Vin to remove her metals. It certainly would have enhanced his divine appearance but this is never mentioned. He didn't have much aluminum either, so I doubt he had chromium. And if he had no chromium he definitely had no nicrosil. Also if he'd been able to compound chromium, there's no way Vin could have beaten him. I guess that's what he gets for holding the Final Empire back. It would have been frustrating for him to know how to make the metal, but unable to get his hands on some.

[dyring]

He may well have forgotten exactely how to make it too.

He may have had all the knowledge after holding preservations power, but once he let that go, most likely he had to remember it with a regular brain until he could get hold of his copperminds, and even if he got those imidiately, or managed to store the info while holding preservations power, Ruin could have changed/corrupted it.

The lord ruler living at the end of the final empire propably had forgotten much of what he once knew, or atleast forgotten the details surounding it.

[Teegs]

He may well have forgotten exactely how to make it too.

You know, TLR was a feruchemist right?

[dyring]

You know, TLR was a feruchemist right?

You know ruin could change information in a coppermind, right?

Know, the lord ruler forgetting some of all the secret tricks wich noone else knew sure would make it easier having someone *cough* vin kill him later..

Edited April 10, 2012 by dyring

[Teegs]

I remember the scene where Sazed has the epiphany about Ruin altering texts etc., but I can't remember the part about altering copperminds specifically. Alas, I don't have access to the passage so I'll take your word for it.

Either way, I suppose Ruin could simply influence TLR over the years enough to cause him to forget, or perhaps, not consider certain things.

[Windrunner he/him]

Here you go

There is something—some force—that wants us to believe that the Hero of Ages has come, and that he must travel to the Well of Ascension. Something is making the prophecies change so that they refer to Alendi more perfectly.

And whatever this power is, it can change words within a Feruchemist's metalmind.

I doubt that the Lord Ruler forgot anything over time. If there was one thing I would remember for sure it would be the proportions of the metals to be used. There's really not all that much information for him to forget. Like eight alloy formulas (requiring only two metals) and some Hemalurgic spike locations.

One thing to consider is that most of these metals wouldn't be known to these people. Chromium is a good example. How do you find a metal when it has no name, and hasn't even been discovered? He would know properties and physical appearance of that metal, but he can't send followers out looking for it. They'll surely know that any metal TLR is interested in is probably involved with the Metallic Arts. And he obviously isn't going mining himself.

Also as I mentioned above, it's extremely likely that the Lord Ruler has insufficient technology to get a hold of the required metals. I just don't think there's any reason for Ruin to have manipulated anything when TLR had no access to the metals.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Windrunner

[nikomis he/him]

I didn't think Ruin could alter copperminds... information stored in metal should be out of his reach, shouldn't it? (Can't trust anything not written in metal)

[Windrunner he/him]

Written in metal, not stored in a coppermind. Shards appear to be blind to the focus of their power, so they couldn't see what it says. Copperminds have power that actually appears to be stored in the cognitive realm. Since Ruin and Preservation both power Feruchemy equally well, as it is a balance magic, Ruin has no problem messing with that cognitive charge.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Windrunner

[CrazyRioter she/her]

it's like how with allomancy the power doesn't come from the metal, the metal is a gateway, and in feruchemy the stuff is not literally stored inside the metal, the metal is a gateway that allows you to store stuff somewhere else and access it later.

[nikomis he/him]

Fair enough. I just always thought the copperminds would be immune due to the reference I used but I guess I was viewing it differently.

[Thought]

Atium does not steal all attributes at once. Rather, it steals one attribute (as all Hemalurgy), but it's a Hemalurgic wildcard. It can steal any attribute.

Actually, in the HoA ch 36 bump, Sazed implies that a spike can steal more than one power. He says that a steel spike can take any physical allomantic attribute, but where it is placed determines what it gives. However, that would generally mean that even if an atium spike stole all attributes at once, it could only grant one at a time.

How do you find a metal when it has no name, and hasn't even been discovered?

With the power of the Well of Ascension? He did rearrange the world: it seems like it would have been a small matter to make sure he had what he wanted near him.

[Windrunner he/him]

Actually, in the HoA ch 36 bump, Sazed implies that a spike can steal more than one power. He says that a steel spike can take any physical allomantic attribute, but where it is placed determines what it gives. However, that would generally mean that even if an atium spike stole all attributes at once, it could only grant one at a time.

Well if it does steal everything at once, you could simply split the spike. You would less then 1/16th strength of other mistborn though. (Is mistborn capitalized? I don't think so.)

With the power of the Well of Ascension? He did rearrange the world: it seems like it would have been a small matter to make sure he had what he wanted near him.

I don't think the Well would help with this. He would be blind to all metals, as a holder of Preservation's power, unable to identify any in particular. If Ruin couldn't differentiate the metal comprised of his own power from the others, I doubt Rashek could have picked out one regular metal from all the rest.

Also he might not even be able to create the metal he needs. It appears those using the Well's power are much more rigidly held to the Shard's intent. Evidence for this is that Rashek was already in Preservation mode with mere minutes at the Well, while Vin had no problem defying Preservation's intent to kill Ruin after hours holding Preservation. So Preservation is not creation, Rashek wouldn't have been able to just make metal appear. Even Sazed mentions how every object is half Ruin, half Preservation on Scadrial. He would need to get Ruin to work with him to create any chromium, and whatever it's alloyed with.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Windrunner

[Thought]

Regarding multiple powers, Sazed is a bit contradictory in that he also says that killing a mistborn with a spike was a waste since only one power could be drawn out and the rest lost (HoA ch 72). Either the power a spike has is determined at the time of charging (per this blurb) or it is

I don't think the Well would help with this. He would be blind to all metals, as a holder of Preservation's power, unable to identify any in particular. If Ruin couldn't differentiate the metal comprised of his own power from the others, I doubt Rashek could have picked out one regular metal from all the rest.

Also he might not even be able to create the metal he needs. It appears those using the Well's power are much more rigidly held to the Shard's intent. Evidence for this is that Rashek was already in Preservation mode with mere minutes at the Well, while Vin had no problem defying Preservation's intent to kill Ruin after hours holding Preservation. So Preservation is not creation, Rashek wouldn't have been able to just make metal appear. Even Sazed mentions how every object is half Ruin, half Preservation on Scadrial. He would need to get Ruin to work with him to create any chromium, and whatever it's alloyed with.

In HoA, ch 72, Sazed wonders why The Lord Ruler didn't tell people about all 16 metals. Curiously, he doesn't consider the possibility that he just didn't have access to the metals. That indicates other explanations are necessary. Such as, he willingly held it back.

While animals and people (maybe even plants) have some Ruin in them (since they didn't create stones, it seems probably that Sazed was being metaphorical when he was talking about inanimate object), Preservation's power is clearly enough to alter things: Rashek created/modified microbes, plants, animals, and people. Changing manganese or vanadium into chromium seems to be a logical extension of this. If that is possible or not is unknown, but it is at least a logical extension of what we've already seen.

Of course, as noted, Rashek changed things: what he couldn't do, it seems, was correct his own mistakes (shove the planet back to where it was, remove the ashmounts and find some other way of protecting people, etc). Thus, if he moved metal to be near him, or transmuted it from something else, he couldn't have undone it.

As for being able to see metal, that should be fairly unimportant, and not exactly true. There is a difference between the random metals Vin sees and atium, for example (HoA, ch 79). That might just be because, hey, atium is Ruin, but it sets a precedent for metals being distinguishable. But beyond that, clearly a shard can perceive a specific metal on some level. If the Shard could only "perceive" metals as indistinguishable blobs of light, how could that information be communicated to the shardholder is such a way that Rashek or Sazed could make use of it? Even abstract information has to be grounded in a shared experience.

None of this is definite, of course, but given that Rashek had good reasons not to use the metal, saying he couldn't find it seems to be an unnecessary addition.

[lil_literalist he/him]

Snip

Prehaps Hoid has had one of his precognitive visions...

Snip

Precognitive visions? Is this actually something that Hoid has, or are we just talking about his uncanny knack for showing up in places at the right time?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Brandon said Hoid has "some precognitive abilities" (or something like that).

[LightReader she/her]

Once the Heralds broke this agreement, it no longer mattered whether the Voidbringers defeated humanity. Odium had beaten Honor, and was now able to directly attack him, killing Tanavast. So what now? Why is Odium still attacking Roshar? He left Sel alone after the death of Aona and Skai. My belief, is that he is afraid of Honor being taken back again. Either Honor was never Splintered, (unlikely from what we’ve seen of spren and the Shards on Sel.) or it’s reforming. Potentially Honor was dead before even Aona and Skai, perhaps he was protected the other Shards from Odium with the Oathpact. So Odium’s greatest enemy is returning, and he can’t let him rise again. The easiest solution? Kill all of Honor’s people and destroy Roshar in the process. He can attack with impunity now, and even perhaps intervene directly himself.

I suppose this is what people call thread necromancy... Anyways, I just read this thread and the discussion didn't ever really come back to this question about why Odium is still attacking Roshar even though Honor is already dead. I think your thought about Honor reforming, or returning is a good one and I would like to possibly add to it.

We know the Oathpact was broken when the Heralds refused to return to Damnation, and this is probably what gave Odium the opening he needed to splinter/kill Honor/Tanavast. I think the reason Odium isn't done though is because Taln died. Talenel'Elin Stonesinew did not break the pact. I'm thinking that Taln holding on to the oathpact is somehow binding Odium to Roshar, and he needs to completely finish the job. Or possibly Taln's holding to the oathpact is what is giving Honor the ability to slowly coalesce and return to challenge Odium. Somehow Honor has been able to start influencing the world again, (possibly starting with Gavilar uniting Alethkar and/or maybe something weird happening in Shinovar involving Szeth's past) which may be what has triggered Odium to start ramping up for a final Desolation. Perhaps Tanavast realized that there was some hope for Honor, maybe that it would one day be possible for the Shard to be taken up again by someone else, which is why he left the visions/messages that Dalinar is now receiving - to help that hope become a reality.

Anyways, this probably all needs is own thread in the Stormlight section, or more probably there are already several discussing this stuff and I just haven't found them.

[Aradel he/him]

Though I don't think it's likely, could Odium be running from something else, or coming to rest before taking on another shard?

If either were the case, he could be coming to Roshar because he can retake the voidbringers and build up his power quickly.

[happyman he/him]

Yes but Ellend had a bead of Lerasium and his allomantic strength wasn't even near what we saw from TLR

This is almost certainly for two reasons:

(1) TLR could mix Allomancy/Feruchemy to Compound all the metals, and doubtless knew that he could. "Spectacular" is an understatement when it comes to Compounding. He almost undoubtedly compounded speed, mental speed, and health whenever necessary. Think Strong, Fast, Miles. Scary. His only weaknesses were his arrogance and his high natural age.

(2) Elend didn't try to use his powers nearly as viciously as TLR did. He probably could have soothed as effectively as TLR did, but didn't think it was right.

[Windrunner he/him]

There's also the distinct possibility that TLR was using the other version of Compounding. Assuming he had access to nicrosil, it's possible that he could store a bit of Soothing in a nicrosilmind, and then burned it to be able to Soothe people beyond the limits of even a lerasium Mistborn.

[happyman he/him]

There's also the distinct possibility that TLR was using the other version of Compounding. Assuming he had access to nicrosil, it's possible that he could store a bit of Soothing in a nicrosilmind, and then burned it to be able to Soothe people beyond the limits of even a lerasium Mistborn.

Possibly. The strength of Compounding in its various forms gave TLR enormous flexibility. The more we learn about it, the more the term "physical god" for an Allomancer/Feruchemist in the know comes to mind.