+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Leshwi knew a Honorspren. And it looks to have been from her youth, before she became a Fused. I think we can assume that. Honorspren and servants of Odium really don't mix. This is a problem. Honorspren are modelled after humans, not Singers. They must postdate the arrival of refugees from Ashyn. Raboniel, however, hails from a time a few decades after the arrival of the Ashynites. So how quickly did the Spren adapt and how long is the period over which Fused were created? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Leshwi knew a Honorspren. And it looks to have been from her youth, before she became a Fused. I think we can assume that. Honorspren and servants of Odium really don't mix. This is a problem. Honorspren are modelled after humans, not Singers. They must postdate the arrival of refugees from Ashyn. Raboniel, however, hails from a time a few decades after the arrival of the Ashynites. So how quickly did the Spren adapt and how long is the period over which Fused were created? There are a few assumptions here, such as modern Honorspren may appear humanoid, but that does not mean the earliest ones always were so (Oathbringer Ch 7): Spoiler “So … some of my spears have been women, then?” he asked. “Female, at least,” Syl said. “Roughly half, as these things tend to go.” She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.” “What? Why?” She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.” Syl could mean old spen that are not Honorspren, but she could also mean the oldest Honorspren themselves. What we know of the timeline so far (which may or may not be entirely correct) indicates: Honor and Cultivation arrive in Roshar Truespren (such as Honorspren) are created They may or may not grant Surges to Dawnsingers at this point Refugee Humans arrive Dawnsingers do something to offend the Truespren This may be before or after the fighting starts between Singers and Humans Some Dawnsingers become Fused Honor creates the Honorblades / Oathpact Truespren "change" to mimic the Honorblades in how surges are granted Which, as above, may mean they granted no surges before; or how they granted Surges changed Since Fused are made from Cognitive Shadows, I would image that each has to be made right after their first death, but before moving Beyond. How many Desolation cycles saw the creation of new Fused is unknown. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) 6 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Leshwi knew a Honorspren. And it looks to have been from her youth, before she became a Fused. I think we can assume that. Honorspren and servants of Odium really don't mix. This is a problem. Honorspren are modelled after humans, not Singers. They must postdate the arrival of refugees from Ashyn. Raboniel, however, hails from a time a few decades after the arrival of the Ashynites. So how quickly did the Spren adapt and how long is the period over which Fused were created? What if they weren't shaped by Singers' perception but by Shardic perception? Both Cultivation and Honor have Vessels which use human form primarily and they were the ones that created True Spren (yes, she was a dragon but human form is natural to her, look up recent WoBs on dragons). They might have shaped True Spren in their image, not Singers'. Spren's perception of themselves also matters and if Honorspren (and other True Spren too) view themselves as the closest to Honor, they might have taken the form of the human because Tanavast was a human. Edit: Honor was literally the one who was creating new Honorspren, OB ch 108: Quote “Well, sometime before his death, Honor stopped creating honorspren. We don’t know why, but he asked the Stormfather to do it instead.” Still, at least for Lesser spren, it takes hundreds or thousands of years to change their form - it's a long process. Spoiler Questioner Do the spren that we know of as the Cryptics exist before Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Ah, good question! No. Cryptics would be one of the forms of spren that were a later creation. Creation is the wrong term, but yeah. Billy Todd, Moderator Later development? Evolution? Brandon Sanderson All of the sapient spren are later developments. Billy Todd, Moderator Are they evolved from the earlier spren? Brandon Evolution doesn't work the same way on the spren, right? The spren were created more than evolved, I would say. Billy Todd, Moderator Maybe cultivated? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, cultivated. *laughter* JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) Spoiler Dragon13 Syl identifies herself as an honorspren. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Dragon13 Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? Brandon Sanderson He would definitely... Yes. I think you could say that he would. Dragon13 By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak? Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of Honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Nebraskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a Cultivationspren. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Spoiler [...] Questioner The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard. Brandon Sanderson That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement. Questioner Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work? Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not. Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) Spoiler Just_A_Silvereye In the cosmere, if everyone on a planet believes unicorns exist, would some kind of unicorn shadow appear in the Cognitive Realm as a result? If yes, could you create an actual, physical unicorn out of it? Brandon Sanderson No, it's not going to quite work this way. What's going to happen if everyone believes unicorns exist, but they don't, there's various things that could happen. You might end up with some Investiture taking on this persona and becoming this, but it's not like you can create it, but over time you might end up with the equivalent of a spren. Then it's not going to be just a physical unicorn running around. It's gonna have more spren aspects, and my guess would be that over time these things feed each other. Right? Like people see one, and then they describe, "This is what it looked like," and that changes the public perception to better match. And then over thousands of years what you end up with is, "Hey there's things in the forest over there that are a type of mysterious creature that are transparent and look a little like a horse with a horn, but maybe fly," or things like this. You would end up with something in the middle, between the two of them. Things wouldn't naturally pop up on Shadesmar unless there's free Investiture in that same sort of way. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Edited January 4 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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