CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Hello fellow theorists. **SPOILERS FOR EVERYTHING COSMERE** I've been thinking about the atium alloy retcon in mistborn, and some things just aren't adding up. For those who aren't aware - in the original mistborn books, atium is presented as the god metal, not an alloy. However, Brandon has retconed this to say that the atium we see in mistborn is actually atium-electrum alloy. This was done because ALL god metals should be burnable by ANYONE the way that lerasium is, with two effects possible. As it stands currently, pure atium will hemalurgically steal any invested art and will allomantically grant more expansive future visions (similar to atium from mb era 1), with the feruchemical effect unknown. He is keeping the mistborn books the way they are as he believes this retcon can be explained as the scadrians lack of technology / information to discover it was actually an alloy. My big issue with this, however, is the Lord Ruler. We know that when he ascended, he was granted an incredible amount of knowledge on the metals and their effects. After all, this is how he knew how to make kandra, inquisitors, and koloss. So, why do we only see the alloy version in mb era 1? It doesn't make sense to me that the LR would completely ignore the pure form of a god metal given that it is burnable by anyone and must have an effect comparable to the strength of lerasium. We know that the pure form was known at this time, and was able to be created since we see Kelsier use a different alloy of atium than the typical atium-electrum (malatium). This also creates issues as Kelsier would have known how powerful the pure form is - why would he make a new alloy instead? The ONLY way I could see the LR ignoring pure atium is if burning it makes someone into a full feruchemist since he was actively trying to get rid of feruchemy. However this doesn't work either as we are told that it grants expansive visions of the future (coppermind). I have further issues with this whole all god metals are burnable by anyone situation. This seems to present problems for other stories in the cosmere. Primarily on Roshar. Given that Rodium had been around many thousands of years and we are told by brando that he is very aware of the situation on Scadrial (harmony ascension), i feel like Rodium should absolutely be aware of the metallic arts and should certainly be aware of the effects of his own god metal. So, why the hell hasn't he used this in his fight for Roshar. His intent specifically seems to favor using every advantage that he has. There is no reason I can think of that Rodium wouldn't have his Fused burn his godmetal, make metalminds or try it hemalurgically. The last 2 are definitely a stretch as we dont know if god metal metalminds are accessible by anyone, and he probably wouldnt want to introduce hemalurgy. Are we saying that Cultivationium (not sure the name here), Raysium and Tanavastium all have useless effects? That would be 6 distinct effects. In addition, why hasn't any other group figured this out yet? There have been people moving between worlds for many many years. We know that Shasharra, for example, traveled to Roshar and interacted with Shardblades. Why has literally no pure god metal been burned besides lerasium? I know that some of this could be 'Brandon just hasn't written it yet' but this feels like a really really important thing that is being overlooked. Hoid, for example, was clearly aware of the effects of burning lerasium. Why hasn't he burned other god metals? Someone make it make sense. I just remembered, we have Banavadium in mistborn era 2, where there is already a culture of burning metals. We see spikes of Banavadium, but no metalminds or burning it. Why not? That seems like a no brainer for an organization like the set who was already doing terrible experiments on people. I would like to specify that Rodium is Rayse Odium as opposed to Taravangian Odium 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 16 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We know that when he ascended, he was granted an incredible amount of knowledge on the metals and their effects. After all, this is how he knew how to make kandra, inquisitors, and koloss. So, why do we only see the alloy version in mb era 1? It's possible that LR DID use pure Atium for himself. It granting broader insight into the SR, and thus giving a more expansive form of Future Sight, would be instrumental in planning and maintaining his grip on the Final Empire. It could be that he specifically hid this information from everyone for fear that it would be used against him? 19 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We know that the pure form was known at this time, and was able to be created since we see Kelsier use a different alloy of atium than the typical atium-electrum (malatium). This also creates issues as Kelsier would have known how powerful the pure form is - why would he make a new alloy instead? Malatium is pretty obviously an alloy of Atium, Electrum, and Gold. There is no need for Kelsier to have had access to or knowledge of "pure" Atium. Though, I will say, it does cause some problems simply due to the nature of material science on Scadrial. To make Allomantically viable alloys, they have to be able to TEST those metals for the correct ratios, and even if the common metalurgist didn't know what Electrum was, they should still be able to detect that the Atium they were using had something else in it... Unless something about the God Metal somehow blocks that kind of detection? But that seems a little silly. 22 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: The ONLY way I could see the LR ignoring pure atium is if burning it makes someone into a full feruchemist since he was actively trying to get rid of feruchemy. However this doesn't work either as we are told that it grants expansive visions of the future (coppermind). I sincerely doubt that Ruin's pure investiture would grant a powerset related to a mixture of Ruin and Preservation. But, this could go back to my original point about Future Sight, how it could be used against the LR, etc... As for the rest of your points...they are pretty valid. Why wouldn't the other Shards, especially Autonomy and Odium, try to make use of these powerful metals? Obviously they have access to them, their acolytes are using them for nefarious purposes, but it seems like they are only interested in their material characteristics and not their other effects. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux he/him Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Hum. I'll largely be coming up with ideas to reconcile the concepts here. Idea one is that the Eleventh Metal, Malaltium wasn't created via alloying pure Atium with gold, it was created by dissolving the silver out of the naturally occurring Atium - electrum alloy. Electrum is an alloy of gold and silver, and by removing the silver you're left with an alloy of gold and Atium with unknown percentages, maybe they needed to add in more gold or something. From the Encyclopedia Britannica on silver processing: Silver (Ag), like gold, crystallizes in the face-centred cubic system. It melts when heated to 962 °C (1,764 °F). With a density of 10.49 grams per cubic centimetre, it is the lightest of the precious metals. It is also the least noble of the precious metals, reacting readily with many common reagents such as nitric acid and sulfuric acid. Metallic silver can be dissolved from gold alloys of less than 30 percent gold by boiling with 30-percent-strength nitric acid in a process referred to as parting. Boiling with concentrated sulfuric acid to separate silver and gold is called affination. Both these processes are used on a commercial scale for separating silver and gold. Keep in mind that Kelsier basically robbed and killed the guy that made the discovery in the first place and that the whole process was carefully monitored through Ruin. Kelsier may never have known how to make the stuff. I'll drop the history of Malatium from the Coppermind article here: While learning Allomancy from Gemmel, Kelsier infiltrates Keep Shezler and, after defeating the Mistborn Antillius Shezler, comes across Shezler's notes theorizing about a possible eleventh Allomantic metal.[8] Even after becoming Harmony, Sazed could not find any prior legends about an eleventh metal and concluded that the legends were likely fabricated by Ruin to help drive Kelsier's plan to kill the Lord Ruler.[9] Between Shezler's apparent mental instability,[8] which might have allowed Ruin to speak to him, and Ruin's ability to manipulate text, it is entirely plausible that Ruin could have been behind the creation of Shezler's notes. Furthermore, Gemmel, the person who directed Kelsier to Keep Shezler and drew his attention to Shezler's notes in the first place, showed signs of being manipulated by Ruin,[8] suggesting that Ruin was indeed intentionally leading Kelsier to the notes. Ruin later claimed that he was in fact responsible for manipulating Kelsier into "discovering" the metal.[10] I'll also note that scientific research on Atium would be hideously expensive and likely would be carefully monitored by the Inquisitors and consequently Ruin. I'm not sure if we've seen pure Atium anywhere except in the aftermath of Wax's laboratory experiment with Harmonium and Trellium, we've never seen Atium naturally occurring. It's possible that other Shards have intentionally hidden away their Godmetals or alloyed them to better control the effect on the planet. On Roshar at least, Honor intentionally put limitations on some of the Surges because they were too potentially destructive if left unbounded. Stonewards don't have access to microkinesis for example and so can't casually split axi (equivalent of splitting the atom). Unchained Bondsmithing is really dangerous as Ishar has already demonstrated. Limiting the power they give mortals (or immortals) is something that Shards do not infrequently. Idea two is that TLR was already playing with fire by using Ruin's Investiture in Hemalurgy and he intentionally built fail safes, backdoors, weaknesses, and legislation for the event that Ruin escaped or otherwise was able to influence the Hemalurgic creations. Imagine the havoc that would have been caused if Ruin had entities that he could control without the backdoors made by TLR. If there's a lasting change where the Investiture of the God Metal gets incorporated into the Spiritweb of the one burning it, then I can think of plenty of reasons to not Connect yourself that strongly to Ruin. With burning Raysium it might functionally be equivalent to creating a Fused in the first place. Sazed was able to directly heal and Invest Spook making him a Mistborn and I didn't see any Lerasium getting swallowed while he was unconscious, so this is something a Shard can do directly. By directly Investing a being a Shard avoids the risks of someone or something coming along and stealing or hiding away super powerful Godmetals (cough, cough, Hoid, Trustwarren, cough, cough). Ruin died because someone hid away his Atium. Besides, if Rayse can produce things like Yelig-nar with Amaram notably swallowing a gemstone and gaining access to all the Surges of the Fused, what makes you think Rayse wasn't using his Investiture wisely and empowering his minions anyway? There's also a relatively recent WoB where when burning or Investing a Godmetal, it can't be sentient. Shardblades are out for example, so I'm not sure if we've even seen a viably burnable sample of Tanavastium either. Any of these ideas help? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We know that when he ascended, he was granted an incredible amount of knowledge on the metals and their effects. After all, this is how he knew how to make kandra, inquisitors, and koloss. So, why do we only see the alloy version in mb era 1? What makes you think he didn't know it? What's the benefit of him spreading this information out? He knew it, he knew a lot of things that he kept secret just for himself. He kept information about metals like electrum or Malarium hidden and only inscribed them on storage caves metal plates. It's very likely that it was beyond Scadrial's current technology to actually purify and get pure Atium out of the one appearing in the Pits, based on the properties of god metals revealed in TLM. Spoiler Chaos (paraphrased) We asked some questions about the Lord Ruler, like if he knew about chromium and nicrosil. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Brandon said he knew about those metals, and then also said "The Lord Ruler knew a lot of things that no one knows." Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Seventy-Four Allomantic Secrets Some people have asked me why the Lord Ruler was so careful to keep secrets about Allomancy. What would it have mattered if he let out that there were atium Mistings? Some of the secrets offered a sizable tactical advantage. Keeping back duralumin and aluminum gave him and his Inquisitors (the only ones told about those metals, other than a few select obligators) tools that nobody knew about. Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler's divine reputation. Beyond that, knowledge is power. I believe that. And I think that if you're the Lord Ruler, you want to keep a few secrets about your magic system. Mistborn are very rare. Mistings among the nobility—particularly in the early centuries—were not rare. If they'd known about atium Mistings, it could have upset the balance by creating too many superwarriors. Plus, if there are unknown superwarriors to be had, then you want to keep them for yourself. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 15, 2010) For others, WoBs about the retcon: Spoiler Xais56 Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight. Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal. Peter Ahlstrom My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings. Xais56 It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do? Peter Ahlstrom That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO. Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages. General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021) Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young? Brandon Sanderson They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy. I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin. The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation. For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 25 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: It doesn't make sense to me that the LR would completely ignore the pure form of a god metal given that it is burnable by anyone and must have an effect comparable to the strength of lerasium. I think this is precisely the reason why Rashek didn't want to reveal this information at all. Elend was able to see Preservation's plan and his place in it, some random Skaa might have been able to use pure Atium to dethrone Rashek. Rashek suppressed technology, gunpowder, Feruchemy and Allomancy among Skaa for a reason - to keep him in power and to keep the masses under his tyranny. Spoiler Sylos I was happy when Elend finally burned duralumin with atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a duralumin-enhanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future? If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife? Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike? On a similar note if someone burned electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into their own future? Brandon Sanderson There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did. So, in answer to your question, Elend stayed his hand. This is one of the reasons why I changed my mind and decided that Marsh had to live through the end of the book. Elend spared him; I needed to too. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 31 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We know that the pure form was known at this time, and was able to be created since we see Kelsier use a different alloy of atium than the typical atium-electrum (malatium). This also creates issues as Kelsier would have known how powerful the pure form is - why would he make a new alloy instead? We don't know it. We don't know how Kelsier did that. He probably just used the Atium-electrum alloy and took silver out of it. Or maybe there were some other ways. It's highly unlikely he had access to pure Atium. Spoiler Kingsdaughter613 Primary question: Peter recently said something about atium in Era 1 actually being an atium-electrum alloy, which is called nalatium. Is this accurate? Brandon Sanderson This is accurate, yes. You could, by the way, just continue to call it atium. That's what they think atium is in-world. It's very slightly tainted. Kingsdaughter613 Secondary questions: If the above is yes, did Kelsier get malatium by separating the atium and gold from the silver in nalatium? If so, do atium and gold have similar melting points? Brandon Sanderson That's more of a RAFO in that I'm not sure I want to canonize any of that right now. Footnote: Peter's comment did not give the alloy a name, Adam misread a sentence where the questioner mentioned their own nickname for it. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Experimenting with god metals is a very expensive process. Only a sliver of the population had even seen Atium. Knowing that the Lord Ruler suppresses the advancement of technology is a good reason not to experiment with Atium, otherwise you’re gonna end up being a subject of Inquisitors experiments yourself. Spoiler Chaos2651 Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching cadmium and bendalloy for atium and malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy. Brandon Sanderson Preservation wanted atium and malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here. Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically. Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well. As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood. But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time. Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009) 33 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: The ONLY way I could see the LR ignoring pure atium is if burning it makes someone into a full feruchemist since he was actively trying to get rid of feruchemy. However this doesn't work either as we are told that it grants expansive visions of the future (coppermind). It's possible. You can use Scadrian god metals to grant Feruchemy, but I find it not likely to be just Atium, because Feruchemy is both of Preservation and Ruin. Spoiler Yoitsthew Would a lerasium/atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!! Brandon Sanderson You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means. General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020) 35 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I have further issues with this whole all god metals are burnable by anyone situation. I argue that we don't know if anyone anyone can burn god metals. We know that Lerasium granting Allomancy is just a side effect and a Mistborn burning Lerasium would do something else with it. There are some hints in WoBs that anyone might actually refer only to Allomancers - like in a WoB about future Mistborn movie, where Brandon is planning to make use of Pure Atium burnable by any Allomancer - Mistborn and Misting included. There are also some WoBs which talk about needing a connection to this type of investiture, which would mean only Scadrians can burn Atium and Lerasium. What I want to say is we need more data on that and clarification from Brandon. He might actually mean anyone in Cosmere, or something different - we don't know. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson So, one thing I think I did wrong in the books was not having more allomancer guards and soldiers who were women. I don't think our same gender norms would be the case on Scadrial. One of the [screenplay] revisions is this: Shan is no longer Elend's fiance, but his sister. Their father has left on business to the outer domninances, and so Shan is making a play to secure the heirship, trying to prove she is more bold and strong than her brother. This is what gives the team an opening, and why they're striking now with the heist, as in this version, House Venture maintains the city policing and has access to the atium stash. The plan is to put a few Allomancers (including Ham) into the Venture house guard, and exploit Shan's desire to prove herself by creating chaos in the city that she'll think she needs to put down with decisive action. That will involve her pulling out the atium stash, which will in turn let the team know where to go to rob them. It streamlines the book's story in some elegant ways to do this. Shan becomes the primary "mark" of the book, in many ways. It also lets me explain a little more succinctly what various members of the crew are doing in the background while we focus on Vin, who is to get close to Shan as a confidant--which is why she's sent to the parties. And why Shan being a brat to her isn't just annoying, it means a major part of the plan isn't yet in place. It explains way better, in my opinion, why Shan would act against Elend. It's all clicking into place as I move pieces around. That said, I understand those who want a Television show. I could see going that way, perhaps. Trouble is, nobody in streaming needs a big fantasy property. Anywhere I go right now, I'd be in a distant second or third place to Tolkien, WoT, Witcher, or Kingkiller. The offers I've gotten have been for a fraction of the budget of those shows--since everyone has already spent big money on their big fantasy show, and isn't really interested in another. I'm confident feature is the place I want Mistborn; but even if I weren't, I'm not thrilled by the idea of being lost on Netflix as their "other" fantasy show. Rapharasium I don't know if I'm being negative, but these changes really worry and disappoint me. I really like Era 1 as it is, and all this change in the dynamics of society and the plot as too drastic. Brandon Sanderson This isn't negative; I understand this response, and think it's valid. At the same time, I'm of the personal philosophy that a film should generally be a different beast than a book--a book can lean into the little intricacies of a story, while a film should be a bold but unified statement. Nothing will happen to the books; those will remain the same. But if I want this film to work as a film, I believe I need to be willing to re-imagine parts of the story. Mycroft_canner With Elend having a sister does that mean you don’t need the Zane plot anymore? Brandon Sanderson That's from the second book--so it would be in the television show, and we'd likely still do it. DataLoreHD prove she is more bold and strong than her brother Which brother?It certainly could not be Elend, right? Elend had no Allomancy powers (before he ate the lerasium in WoA), so Straff despised Elend and thought him too weak.And Zane was a bastard and also mad dog.If Shan was Straff's legitimate daughter, then her succession was already 100% secure. She wouldn't need to prove anything to anybody. Brandon Sanderson It will be Elend, but it's more that this is the first time that Shan gets to be on her own, leading by herself, and wants to show off for the Lord Ruler. Also, there's the question of whether the male heir--though inferior in this case--might get the nod for sexism reasons. I think it's going to work just fine, but I'll admit, it's getting a little rough to discuss all these details on a thread like this--I can't answer everyone's questions, I'm afraid. I just wanted to indicate the kinds of changes I'm looking at making. Whatever I do will go through my standard "show it to tons of beta readers and get feedback" process, so I should be able to catch problems and fix them. meh84f The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected? Brandon Sanderson So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off. So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.) Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form. The Lord Ruler is still the "big bad" but Shan and the Inquisitors both get a little more screen time. (Actually, about the same as in the books--it's just that other parts are being trimmed, making them more front-and-center.) Phantine Based on that, you're also streamlining away the Sign of Sixteen if it gets a sequel? To be honest, that didn't really work for me in the novel anyway. Brandon Sanderson It's one of my least favorite parts of the trilogy. It (along with Vin drawing upon the mists in book one) are big changes I'm hoping to make to fix weaker sections of the continuity. General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020) Spoiler word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) 41 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Primarily on Roshar. Given that Rodium had been around many thousands of years and we are told by brando that he is very aware of the situation on Scadrial (harmony ascension), i feel like Rodium should absolutely be aware of the metallic arts and should certainly be aware of the effects of his own god metal. So, why the hell hasn't he used this in his fight for Roshar. His intent specifically seems to favor using every advantage that he has. Maybe it's not that effective? What if it's something like A-aluminum? Not every power has to be useful. Or that required him to get more invested in the system which he tried to avoid really hard. Even now Raysium is really rare and if its effect is not that impressive or helpful then why waste it if they can make Stormlight sucking weapons out of it and kill some Radiants? It takes around 300 years for Atium to return to the Pits, burning Raysium might mean that you lose it all for hundreds of years and all Desolations that will take place in that time. 45 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: There is no reason I can think of that Rodium wouldn't have his Fused burn his godmetal, make metalminds or try it hemalurgically. Hemalurgy is usable by anyone in Cosmere with just base metals and we don't see Fused flying around and spiking connections out of Radiants, which is a very quick and effective way of defeating them. Why? I don't know, maybe other Shards simply don't want their subjects to use the invested arts of other Shards, or maybe they don't want to give them tools that can't be controlled. Honor can simply place other restraints on Surges if Radiants are getting out of the line, but he can't do anything about them using Hemalurgy. It's probably a more complicated issue than we like to think. And I disagree that god metals can be used Feruchemically by anyone. 51 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Are we saying that Cultivationium (not sure the name here) Koravellium, unofficially. 52 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Are we saying that Cultivationium (not sure the name here), Raysium and Tanavastium all have useless effects? That would be 6 distinct effects. In addition, why hasn't any other group figured this out yet? The only form of pure god metal of Honor or Cultivation we've ever seen on Roshar are Honorblade. And they probably aren't burnable in their current form. I think that there are already a lot of godly powers present on Roshar, even 2 Dawnshards are probably there, and giving people even more powers seems like a bad idea after they've destroyed Ashyn. 55 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: There have been people moving between worlds for many many years. We know that Shasharra, for example, traveled to Roshar and interacted with Shardblades. Why has literally no pure god metal been burned besides lerasium? Knowledge. On Scadrial it's been easy to know to burn metals since Rashek Ascended. Only since he Ascended, before that there were no Allomancer and nobody knew they could burn metals, even if they were snapped by Mists like Alendi. After Rashak Ascended people see a new metal and ask themselves "can I burn it?" No other place in Cosmere is that heavily focused on metals, nobody would know metals can be burned to gain powers, nobody would ever try to burn a piece of a god metal. Only Shards can tell them that and they aren't that likely to do that - on Nalthis Awakening was only recently discovered, on Sel Dominion and Devotion didn't really care about humans before they were Splintered etc. Plus god metals are really rare and hard to find. 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I know that some of this could be 'Brandon just hasn't written it yet' but this feels like a really really important thing that is being overlooked. Hoid, for example, was clearly aware of the effects of burning lerasium. Why hasn't he burned other god metals? How do you know he didn't? Hoid is special, he isn't a good example. Spoiler Skaiiwalker (paraphrased) We know that Hoid has a bead of lerasium. Does he have any atium? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He has access to atium, yes. Teen Author Boot Camp (April 11, 2015) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I just remembered, we have Banavadium in mistborn era 2, where there is already a culture of burning metals. We see spikes of Banavadium, but no metalminds or burning it. Why not? That seems like a no brainer for an organization like the set who was already doing terrible experiments on people. Why hasn't Wax tried burning Trellium? No idea. Maybe for the same reason Set has never tried this? Or maybe they can't for some reason? No idea, but that's a good question. We'll probably know more about god metals from Mistborn Era 3. Overall those are valid points but I wanted to point out that we clearly know too little to know for sure what's going on with god metals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: Why hasn't Wax tried burning Trellium? No idea. Maybe for the same reason Set has never tried this? Or maybe they can't for some reason? No idea, but that's a good question. We'll probably know more about god metals from Mistborn Era 3. Probably for the same reason Wax didn't notice he was a Mistborn... "I'm a Misting, I can only burn Steel, why would I ingest other metals" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: This was done because ALL god metals should be burnable by ANYONE the way that lerasium is, <snip> I have further issues with this whole all god metals are burnable by anyone situation. This seems to present problems for other stories in the cosmere. Primarily on Roshar. Given that Rodium had been around many thousands of years and we are told by brando that he is very aware of the situation on Scadrial (harmony ascension), i feel like Rodium should absolutely be aware of the metallic arts and should certainly be aware of the effects of his own god metal. So, why the hell hasn't he used this in his fight for Roshar. His intent specifically seems to favor using every advantage that he has. There is no reason I can think of that Rodium wouldn't have his Fused burn his godmetal, make metalminds or try it hemalurgically. The last 2 are definitely a stretch as we dont know if god metal metalminds are accessible by anyone, and he probably wouldnt want to introduce hemalurgy. Are we saying that Cultivationium (not sure the name here), Raysium and Tanavastium all have useless effects? That would be 6 distinct effects. In addition, why hasn't any other group figured this out yet? <snip> There have been people moving between worlds for many many years. We know that Shasharra, for example, traveled to Roshar and interacted with Shardblades. Why has literally no pure god metal been burned besides lerasium? This is not entirely accurate. Scadrian Godmetals are burnable by any Scadrian - because they have both a Connection to their Shards and a Connection to the Metalic Arts that allow accessing Shardic investiture through Allomantic Burning. Scadrians should be able to burn Godmetals from other Shards, but would need to find a way to establish a Connection. Non-Scadrians may have a Connection to their Shards, but no way to access Allomancy to burn them (but if they gain a method - say through Hemalurgy - then it should be possible) Spoiler word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: He is keeping the mistborn books the way they are as he believes this retcon can be explained as the scadrians lack of technology / information to discover it was actually an alloy. My big issue with this, however, is the Lord Ruler. We know that when he ascended, he was granted an incredible amount of knowledge on the metals and their effects. After all, this is how he knew how to make kandra, inquisitors, and koloss. So, why do we only see the alloy version in mb era 1? It doesn't make sense to me that the LR would completely ignore the pure form of a god metal given that it is burnable by anyone and must have an effect comparable to the strength of lerasium. Others have answered this, but also keep in mind that E1Atium was the only accessible source for Atium. Not only was there no naturally occuring source for Pure Atium, TLR was actively supporting Preservation's plan for containing Ruin (which is why Leras set up the Pits in the first place) Spoiler HoA Epigraphs: Quote he Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away during the betrayal and imprisonment. Kelsier didn't truly destroy this place by shattering those crystals, for they would have regrown eventually—in a few hundred years—and continued to deposit atium, as the place was a natural outlet for Ruin's trapped power. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: We know that the pure form was known at this time, and was able to be created since we see Kelsier use a different alloy of atium than the typical atium-electrum (malatium). This also creates issues as Kelsier would have known how powerful the pure form is - why would he make a new alloy instead? This sounds like you have not yet read "The Eleventh Metal" (printed in Arcanum Unbounded) - spoilers Spoiler It explains how Kelsier found his Malatium 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: There is no reason I can think of that Rodium wouldn't have his Fused burn his godmetal, make metalminds or try it hemalurgically. The last 2 are definitely a stretch as we dont know if god metal metalminds are accessible by anyone, GodMetalMinds are not accessible by anyone unless you take the same steps as needed for making Unkeyed and Unsealed Metalminds. Otherwise, Identity would still be an issue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, Duxredux said: Idea one is that the Eleventh Metal, Malaltium wasn't created via alloying pure Atium with gold, it was created by dissolving the silver out of the naturally occurring Atium - electrum alloy. Electrum is an alloy of gold and silver, and by removing the silver you're left with an alloy of gold and Atium with unknown percentages, maybe they needed to add in more gold or something. I like this a lot. 2 hours ago, Duxredux said: Idea two is that TLR was already playing with fire by using Ruin's Investiture in Hemalurgy and he intentionally built fail safes, backdoors, weaknesses, and legislation for the event that Ruin escaped or otherwise was able to influence the Hemalurgic creations. Imagine the havoc that would have been caused if Ruin had entities that he could control without the backdoors made by TLR. If there's a lasting change where the Investiture of the God Metal gets incorporated into the Spiritweb of the one burning it, then I can think of plenty of reasons to not Connect yourself that strongly to Ruin. While I agree with everything here, the hemalurgy done to the inquisitors was also a permanent Connection to Ruin and DID allow him an incredible amount of influence over them. This got me thinking about having such a permanent Connection to the other shards. We know that hemalurgy opens you to influence from any shard, with that influence letting them directly control you, not to mention experience the world through you to some degree (experience may not be true, that's how i interpreted Wax being Harmony's eyes but I see that could be entirely metaphorical). Doesn't that make a very convenient way for the other shards to more easily move pawns on the map as we see Harmony do with the kandra? This ties into 2 hours ago, Duxredux said: Besides, if Rayse can produce things like Yelig-nar with Amaram notably swallowing a gemstone and gaining access to all the Surges of the Fused, what makes you think Rayse wasn't using his Investiture wisely and empowering his minions anyway? While I think the Yelig-nar situation is far more akin to the aethers devouring their host through a bond, I agree with the Fused angle of it all. I like the theory and logic of the god metals, since they grant a greater Connection to that shard, would as a 'basic' effect grant you access to that shards magic system (I know they are more complicated than just a shards system but I think the point stands) with all of them having their secondary effect which still remain entirely unknown. This also would explain why no one in the set would be interested in burning Banavadium. With this theory that would make you a sand master. Not too useful on Scadrial where allomancers are easier to create, train and are arguably more powerful. In addition to the lack of sand that needs to be recharged by an external investiture like a highstorm or invested sunlight. Perhaps we will see some of this in a more fleshed out Taldain book(s). Rodium wouldn't want anyone getting hold of his god metal if this theory is correct given that he only made Fused once. My issue with this theory however is it seems too cut and dry / easy for Brando that you burn the god metal get the god's powers. With all the ties about Connection, location, and Intent, I doubt that it can be that easy. Granted there could be something to amount that you take and other factors about your personality and the shards Intent, etc, but I would bring up the example of Hoid in Tress. He goes through a whole lot of trouble to gain access to AonDor if he could've instead gotten god metal from Sel (I'm not too sharp on Elantris, please correct if wrong). Overall if this theory doesn't stand I think I would prefer that. I trust Brando to wrap it up nicely and make it make sense, but for the time being I'm a little disappointed in the lack of god metal content. It feels like at the very least there would be religious / mythological references or SOMETHING in the text to reference or talk about this, because that makes me worry we won't ever really see this fully explored in world. Which, again, I trust Brando to write the story but this feels like a really fun thread to pull. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Koravellium, unofficially. Thank you! 2 hours ago, alder24 said: What makes you think he didn't know it? What's the benefit of him spreading this information out? He knew it, he knew a lot of things that he kept secret just for himself. He kept information about metals like electrum or Malarium hidden and only inscribed them on storage caves metal plates. It's very likely that it was beyond Scadrial's current technology to actually purify and get pure Atium out of the one appearing in the Pits, based on the properties of god metals revealed in TLM. I think primarily its that LR will become less and less of a focus as religion and culture change. We already see in mb era 2 that Harmony has become new god and people reference LR as something that has come and gone. It seems weird to me that we would at some point later have stories where we learn LR knew certain secrets. Perhaps he will truly take them to the grave and we won't ever know what he knew except through WOBs. That's kinda sad though, I really liked Rashek (as a character, hes a bad guy). 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I think this is precisely the reason why Rashek didn't want to reveal this information at all. Elend was able to see Preservation's plan and his place in it, some random Skaa might have been able to use pure Atium to dethrone Rashek. Rashek suppressed technology, gunpowder, Feruchemy and Allomancy among Skaa for a reason - to keep him in power and to keep the masses under his tyranny. This is a really good point. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: It's possible. You can use Scadrian god metals to grant Feruchemy, but I find it not likely to be just Atium, because Feruchemy is both of Preservation and Ruin. @listerfeend and I were discussing this today. Since all Scadrians inherently have more Preservation than Ruin, couldn't it be that Feruchemist's have less Preservation than the rest of the population, making them more in balance - granting Feruchemy. Therefore, enhancing the Connection to Ruin would put them more in balance. I don't really have any evidence for this but it makes sense in my brain. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I argue that we don't know if anyone anyone can burn god metals. We know that Lerasium granting Allomancy is just a side effect and a Mistborn burning Lerasium would do something else with it. There are some hints in WoBs that anyone might actually refer only to Allomancers - like in a WoB about future Mistborn movie, where Brandon is planning to make use of Pure Atium burnable by any Allomancer - Mistborn and Misting included. There are also some WoBs which talk about needing a connection to this type of investiture, which would mean only Scadrians can burn Atium and Lerasium. What I want to say is we need more data on that and clarification from Brandon. He might actually mean anyone in Cosmere, or something different - we don't know. I would take this as a counter. mail-mi We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) I know that you said anyone anyone, but I would again point out Hoid. He's an extremely special case, I know I know, but if he could manipulate manipulate his Connection that much (if only Scadrians can burn), then he could've increased it more to gain allomancy instead of needing the lerasium. 5 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Scadrians should be able to burn Godmetals from other Shards, but would need to find a way to establish a Connection. Isn't the 'main' effect of burning a god metal that you gain a Connection to the shard? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 42 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Isn't the 'main' effect of burning a god metal that you gain a Connection to the shard? It's that you increase connection to that shard. All Scadrian's already have a Connection to both Preservatoin and Ruin. That's why I included the WoB. God Metals each have Allomantic, Ferchemical, and Hemalurgic Properties (as well as separate specific properties - like Raysium moving Light) - but a person would still have to have access to the Allomantic Manifestation of Investiture (naturally, hemalurgic, medallion, something else) and a Connection to the investiture in question (possibly except Endowment, since her Investiture is about "giving with no strings attached"). Hoid, for example, could probably burn them all, since he is a Lerasium Mistborn and has Connectoins to all of the original Shard's vessels. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: mail-mi We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. @Treamayne how does this factor in? My impression of brando is that he is very specific with his words and also that he corrects incorrect statements. The way I take this, he is saying anyone anyone. He would have corrected them or rafo'd them if this was not the case. I really believe he would have specified scadrians. In addition to that, not anyone could manipulate Connection enough to have Connection with other shards. I think the anyone here also specifies a lack of other complicating details, such as first needing a Connection to Preservation, as that would be very difficult (impossible) for the average rosharan. If someone can provide a source for burning god metals being restricted to only scadrians, or a book comes out that says it, that would definitively clear this up but I haven't found anything. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: My impression of brando is that he is very specific with his words and also that he corrects incorrect statements. The way I take this, he is saying anyone anyone. He is very specific with words and wordings, he does not usually correct incorrect assumptions and often uses that to obfuscate his answers. You should be very wary of any WoB with a one or two word answer. In this case, the "Yes" is "Are there other God Metals that any person can burn?" which could mean: Your interpretation (conflicts with other WoBs) Other Godmetals are burnable by other peoples with connection to that Investiture There is at least 1 Godmetal (probably Edglium - Endowment) that can be burned by anybody It is (deliberately?) unclear which meaning is being implied. Example: Spoiler Quote Questioner Is the [Wandersail] smoke in any way related to Rosharan magic systems? Brandon Sanderson In any way related, yes? I'm good at wiggling out of these. Acknowledged dodging Quote Aaronator17 Are the requirements for a Shard to Invest in a shardworld what causes the manifestations that we see (spren on Roshar, lerasium/atium/harmonium/'trellium' on Scadrial, and Tears of Edgli on Nalthis) or are these phenomena the by-product (or intentional action) of the Shards' Investing themselves? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Stormlight Three Update #4 (Sept. 27, 2016) Unacknowledged dodging - questioner mentions multiple possibilities, so to which of these does "yes" refer? 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If someone can provide a source for burning god metals being restricted to only scadrians, or a book comes out that says it You are correct that he has never said "Atium is only for Scadrians" but he has repeatedly said that to burn other godmetals "something more" is needed. The WoB I showed above indicated that was Connection. Edited January 13 by Treamayne Examples/SPAG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 9 minutes ago, Treamayne said: The WoB I showed above indicated that was Connection. I missed that the first time, thank you. That's true, it does indicate that. That does help for me in terms of not seeing a lot of allomantic god metal stuff. We've gotten more than I ever thought we would with Hemalurgy so I need to remember my patience lol. Thank you, everyone, for helping me with this! My real burning questions pretty much all relate to Nightblood, but they've all been RAFO'd already. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 13 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I agree with the Fused angle of it all. I like the theory and logic of the god metals, since they grant a greater Connection to that shard, would as a 'basic' effect grant you access to that shards magic system (I know they are more complicated than just a shards system but I think the point stands) with all of them having their secondary effect which still remain entirely unknown. This, granting connection to a Shard, seems to be unique to Lerasium only. Burning Atium as far as we know only grants extensive future sight and doesn't modify the spirit web of the user. Lerasium is the only one that does it (as far as we know), it rewrites your spirit web and gives you a strong connection to Preservation - mixing Lerasium with other god metals allows you to get their invested arts - like Lerasium-Bavadinium alloy makes you a Sand Master. Lerasium-Raysium alloy would probably grant you Odium's powers - not Fused Surgebinding, more like Voidbinding (in my opinion Fused are corrupted Singers using Honor/Cultivation Surgebinding powers). Spoiler Stormlightning If Hoid was to get his hands on "bavadinium," could he alloy it with lerasium and get Sand Mastery? Brandon Sanderson This is theoretically possible. FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018) Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) What will an Atium-Lerasium Alloy do ? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand.What Lerasium is, is essentially a hack for something like your spiritual DNA. It rewrites what your spiritual self is capable of. So, combined with atium, which allows you a glimpse into the vision of everything - past, present, future - the theories say it could do one of two things. It could either create a substance so volatile that it would have world-ending repercussions, or rewrite your "spiritual DNA" (his phrase, not mine) with atium's power. Is that a vague enough answer? TWG Posts (March 23, 2010) Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 13 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: He goes through a whole lot of trouble to gain access to AonDor if he could've instead gotten god metal from Sel (I'm not too sharp on Elantris, please correct if wrong). There is a Dor god metal: Spoiler Questioner Is there a metal form of the Dor? Brandon Sanderson There is a metal form of the Dor. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) 13 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I think primarily its that LR will become less and less of a focus as religion and culture change. We already see in mb era 2 that Harmony has become new god and people reference LR as something that has come and gone. It seems weird to me that we would at some point later have stories where we learn LR knew certain secrets. Perhaps he will truly take them to the grave and we won't ever know what he knew except through WOBs. That's kinda sad though, I really liked Rashek (as a character, hes a bad guy). Sliverism is a thing - religion that most likely worships Rashek and reveres Marsh. Yomens worship it. This religion seems like a direct continuation of the Final Empire's religion. In BoM Rashek was mentioned many times and while it ultimately was Kelsier as the Sovereign, I don't think Rashek is fully in the past. There are still many unanswered questions, like who Lutha was, why Rashek tried to end the Final Empire at one point, what his descendants are doing etc. Sure, many of them are little pieces of lore, but Brandon did write a story set up in the early years of the Final Empire that was meant to be a game plot. The game didn't happen and he might use this story in a different way. Brandon isn't done with the Final Empire and Rashek. And I love Rashek too, I want more of him. Spoiler Questioner Do you have any plans of writing any prequels for the Mistborn [series]? Brandon Sanderson No, not right now. One of the reasons that-- I have to put an asterisk on that. I did write out a prequel story happening hundreds of years earlier that was going to be the video game, that ended up never getting made. So there's a chance I will do something with that,a graphic novel or something. So there is a chance. What I won't probably tell is the story that you read in the epigraphs, the story of Rashek and Alendi and all those things, because I feel like that story is told best the way it is in the books, that you get it revealed as it's going along. If I told it again, I feel like it would just be a rehash of that. I can see myself telling other stories potentially, but I am the type that generally likes to keep moving forward. There are some great prequels out there to books that I love, but mostly I like sequels, so I like to move forward. Not impossible, but yeah. The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018) 13 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: @listerfeend and I were discussing this today. Since all Scadrians inherently have more Preservation than Ruin, couldn't it be that Feruchemist's have less Preservation than the rest of the population, making them more in balance - granting Feruchemy. Therefore, enhancing the Connection to Ruin would put them more in balance. I don't really have any evidence for this but it makes sense in my brain. It makes sense. WoBs generally agree that Feruchemy is a mix of Preservation and Ruin, but there are some where Brandon places it more with Preservation and suggest that it can be granted through Preservation's fragment in people's soul in some way. It's hard to say for sure what you have to use to get Feruchemy. Spoiler Argent (paraphrased) Feruchemy is the "balance" between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a "balance" magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon. [...] Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013) Spoiler Questioner How is a new Feruchemist made? Brandon Sanderson What do you mean? Questioner Well you can make a new Mistborn by lerasium-- Brandon Sanderson Oh, okay. Other than through birth? That’s a RAFO, good question though. Right now, as far as anyone knows, it’s by birth only. But-- Well we’ll leave it there. You know that the extra Preservation instead of Ruin had some effects on people on Scadrial. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Spoiler Questioner What is Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard? Brandon Sanderson Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard in specific? Yes, they talk about that in the books. Questioner Ok, it's like, of Preservation? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could say that. Brandon Sanderson Because it seems like one Shard, one magic system? Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing, it's more that-- They, in their philosophy, say that it's kind of a hybrid between the two, but you could kind of feel that it's more-- Questioner It seems more Preservation. Brandon Sanderson It seems more Preservation, but in-world they think it's kind of a hybrid. The philosophy says that one was kind of net-positive, one was kind of net-negative and one was a hybrid. That's their in-world philosophy. I personally would place it more with Preservation. Questioner Ok so more than one magic system can be tied to one Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Ok, that's what I wanted to know. Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing, the definition of magic system can be, is so fluid. Like you can look at this book and say "how many magic systems are there?". Is Surgebinding one or is it ten? Questioner Allomancy's 16-- Brandon Sanderson Is Allomancy 16 or one, and things like that. So yes multiple magic systems can be tied to a Shard. Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015) 14 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I would take this as a counter. Spoiler mail-mi We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) It's a vague answer, already explained well by @Treamayne. I personally more inclined to believe that by "anyone" Brandon means any Allomancer, because of the WoB about the Mistborn movie: "one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers." Lerasium is an odd one, rewriting the spirit web is only its side effect and Preservation admires anyone who wants to be preserved, who wants to brace their soul - that's precisely what Lerasium does. This strengthening of a soul makes you an Allomancer in consequence. This aligns very well with Preservation's intent and that's why Lerasium can be used by anyone in Cosmere. There might be other god metals like that, Edglium is a strong candidate because of the nature of Breaths and Endowment, but I believe all other remaining god metals can be burnt only by Alloamancers. Alloys of god metals are different - Shardblades are alloys (and are alive which makes them no longer count as metals, that's why you can't burn them - WoB below), Atium-electrum alloy is burnable only by electrum Mistings and Mistborns. But pure forms of god metals can be burnt only by Allomancers with a few exceptions. For me this makes the most sense but we need more information to know for sure. For now it's just my headcanon. Feel free to disagree. Spoiler Dave Smith Can a Mistborn burn any god metal such as tanavastium? Brandon Sanderson Yes they could. Footnote: Previously Brandon indicated they would need a tie to that type of Investiture. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Spoiler NeedsToShutUp What would happen if Hoid tried to burn the shard that came off Ishar's Honorblade? Brandon Sanderson If you were able to get a hold of that piece and burn it, it would act like burning... You would be burning a very pure form of a God Metal, and those have some very interesting effects. RAFO. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Spoiler Chaos Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? Brandon Sanderson One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. /r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011) Spoiler Alpharho The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals? Brandon Sanderson No, but good question. Alpharho Are all orders the same alloy, essentially? Brandon Sanderson Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy. Alpharho So, different proportions of tanavastium? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to. Alpharho Would you say different ratios of the same two metals? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing. Alpharho But you won't say what that thing is called? Brandon Sanderson No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) Spoiler Questioner What would happen if a person from Scadrial were to try to burn a manifested metal from Roshar? Brandon Sanderson So you're meaning they're in Shadesmar, they manifest it, and they try to burn it, right? Questioner Say a Spren of a Radiant manifests as a bead of metal instead of a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson You're not going to be able to burn that if it's something that's coming from a spren, because that's not going to be treated as a metal in your body. Like, those are God Metals, and that one is actually alive and awake and it's just not gonna work. There are ways, though, that you could make that work. So it's totally possible, but you're gonna need something that's not an alive spren that's manifest like that. You're gonna need some way to get access to some tanavastium or something like that that's not, like, some living being. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 13 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I know that you said anyone anyone, but I would again point out Hoid. He's an extremely special case, I know I know, but if he could manipulate manipulate his Connection that much (if only Scadrians can burn), then he could've increased it more to gain allomancy instead of needing the lerasium. That's probably not how this works. And Hoid has strong connection to all Shards because he knew their Vessels and he killed a god with them. He's really good at hacking magic systems. Hoid really isn't a good example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Lerasium is the only one that does it (as far as we know), it rewrites your spirit web and gives you a strong connection to Preservation - mixing Lerasium with other god metals allows you to get their invested arts - like Lerasium-Bavadinium alloy makes you a Sand Master. I like this a lot, and it does explain why we haven't seen god metals being burned. Wouldn't this combination be burnable by anyone anyone? And wouldn't it also make you a mistborn? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: What would happen if Hoid tried to burn the shard that came off Ishar's Honorblade? Brandon Sanderson If you were able to get a hold of that piece and burn it, it would act like burning... You would be burning a very pure form of a God Metal, and those have some very interesting effects. RAFO. This makes me hopeful we will see something like this. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: But pure forms of god metals can be burnt only by Allomancers with a few exceptions. For me this makes the most sense but we need more information to know for sure. For now it's just my headcanon. Feel free to disagree. I want there to be stories of other cultures burning god metals or stories of someone like sig burning god metals as part of his escape from night brigade, but I feel like you are right. I'd also like some other world to discover Hemalurgy, either accidentally or not, but I don't think we will get that, purely because there are so many interesting magic systems and worlds that need to be explored. We don't have hardly anything for Invention, Mercy, Valor, Whimsy, or Prudence (unconfirmed) and I feel like those stories will come before crossovers between allomancy and surgebinding, but that could certainly be wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 8 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I like this a lot, and it does explain why we haven't seen god metals being burned. Wouldn't this combination be burnable by anyone anyone? And wouldn't it also make you a mistborn? I would say anyone in Cosmere can burn it because it's Lerasium, but it would only make you a Sand Master (in general grant you connection to the Shard of non-Lerasium component). Just like the WoB said: "rewrite your "spiritual DNA" with atium's power." You won't get Mistborn powers from a god metal alloy of Lerasium. 12 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I'd also like some other world to discover Hemalurgy, either accidentally or not, but I don't think we will get that, purely because there are so many interesting magic systems and worlds that need to be explored. Well, we've most likely seen Hemalurgy being used on Roshar, by Ghostbloods, but still on Roshar. There is also a Hemalurgist on Roshar, on pages somewhere before RoW. RoW I-5: Quote It was an old Alethi man in robes. He’d been killed with some kind of knife wound to the chest, and lay—his eyes open—on the ground. Blood on his lips. [...] I believe I’ve seen him before. A minor Alethi functionary, though his eyes are different now. Curious. Look at his fingers—tan skin with bands of lighter skin. He was wearing jewelry once.” Spoiler kalamitous_emoashions Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out. kalamitous_emoashions But it's there? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Raddatatta In Rhythm of War, Lift came up to the body of Gereh, who had been killed with a messy wound to the chest. Did Mraize kill him with a spike? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! Raddatatta And a followup to that, Gereh's rings were gone. Would it be possible to spike someone to take their Feruchemical power and then use a metalmind keyed to their Identity? Brandon Sanderson This is theoretically possible. Footnote: Brandon has previously said that a spike made from a Feruchemist will "probably" provide enough Identity to use their metalminds, though it won't always. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Well, we've most likely seen Hemalurgy being used on Roshar, by Ghostbloods, but still on Roshar. There is also a Hemalurgist on Roshar, on pages somewhere before RoW. RoW I-5: Quote It was an old Alethi man in robes. He’d been killed with some kind of knife wound to the chest, and lay—his eyes open—on the ground. Blood on his lips. [...] I believe I’ve seen him before. A minor Alethi functionary, though his eyes are different now. Curious. Look at his fingers—tan skin with bands of lighter skin. He was wearing jewelry once.” I did not pick up on this. Thank you! Interesting his eyes are different now. Brandon has mentioned there being something to the lighteyes but I have no idea if we have any more information than that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 11 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I did not pick up on this. Thank you! Interesting his eyes are different now. Brandon has mentioned there being something to the lighteyes but I have no idea if we have any more information than that. It's probably some change of appearance some worldhoppers are using to blend with the local population. At least that's what I think is happening because a Feruchemist from Scadrial living in Alethkar on Roshar would not have Epicanthic folds and thus he would look very Shin-like and be easily recognisable. They need to change their appearance somehow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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