Odium's_Shard Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Odium must SURELY have a secret weapon up his sleeve. he has already Shattered two Shards working in unison, all on his (perhaps with Bavadiin's help), and so knows how it's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 well we don't know that Aona and Skai were working together they might have been fighting each other and Odium took them both out when they were too busy fighting each other to stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Maybe thats what he intended to do with Preservation and Ruin. But if you sign up to Windrunner's theory of Complement Shards like I do, they must have been working together (or at least be a pair of Shards) to form a balance magic (ChayShan). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightReader she/her Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Just because Dominion and Devotion are complements (assuming that theory is correct) who at some time worked together and created a balance magic, it doesn't mean they continued to work together, or were still working together when Odium came. Preservation and Ruin are a perfect example of that. Feruchemy still existed long after the two had stopped working together and started fighting each other. The same could be true of Dominion, Devotion and the ChayShan. In fact, I would take the religious split on Sel as evidence of this. The Jindo religion of balance coming from some the idea of the two sides working together, then the split among the disciples over unity via dominion or devotion. Anyways, the two things - shards being complements and creating a balance magic together and them fighting and opposing each other- are not mutually exclusive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Just because Dominion and Devotion are complements (assuming that theory is correct) who at some time worked together and created a balance magic, it doesn't mean they continued to work together, or were still working together when Odium came. I think this is a tiny bit of a misconception. Shards don't consciously work to create magic systems. KAIMIPONOOn a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?) BRANDON SANDERSON Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works. Source I think of it this way. It's like mixing chemicals together. Which ones react isn't because of whether or not they choose to react, their chemical properties define if reactions occur, and if they do occur what effects will take place. Shards and planets react in the same way, sometimes their properties don't allow for a reaction and sometimes they do. To fall back on Ruin and Preservation, their Shardic properties allowed the two to react with each other. Preservation didn't call up Ruin one day and go, "Yo dude I got this sick idea for a new magic system, come on over and we'll work it out." As a matter of fact Ruin and Preservation were fighting even before humanity existed, and thus before Feruchemy existed. However, if you look at Roshar, Cultivation, Honor and Odium don't seem to have balance magics. Their properties aren't right for a reaction to create a balance magic. It's not that they decided not to, it just wasn't possible. (I think a Shard will react with any planet it's on, the effects just vary depending on the way the Shard works with the Realmetics of the Shardworld.) Does that make sense? However, I think it's very likely that a fall out between Devotion and Dominion caused the rift in Shu-Keseg. It's an excellent idea. I wish we knew if Odium was responsible for it. Edited April 2, 2012 by Windrunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightReader she/her Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 I was under the impression that Preservation and Ruin did make a conscious choice to work together to create life on Scadrial though, and so Feruchemy would be a natural consequence of that interaction. I suppose I'll have to go look for a reference on that. Anyways I figured Devotion and Dominion would have a similar story, working together to create life, resulting in the existence of a balance magic. Then again, we don't actually know for sure that life on Sel was created by those Shards or if it was there when they arrived. As for Cultivation, Honor, and Odium, isn't the standing theory that people on Roshar came there from a different Shardworld? The Tranquiline Halls being a reference to Honor's former planet? There was no working together to create life among those Shards. Is this turning out to be a completely new theory? That balance magics occur when two shards work together to create life on a planet. I suppose that may or may not fit with your shard complements theory. Perhaps shards have to be complements in order to work together in the first place. I'll have to do some reading and referencing and thinking about that. We've certainly strayed from the topic of Shardic future sight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 They worked together conciously to create humanity, because they needed 'Harmony' as such to be able to 'create', which involves Preservation and Ruin. However, the fact that they are in such close proximity, like with Windrunner's examples in chemicals, throws out results whether they like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 I still do not see where Preservations foresight was all that good. Other than figuring it would take a creature of both Ruin and Preservation to end the conflict, almost everything else went to pot. 1. The prophecies were completely hijacked by Ruin to tempt someone into releasing him. If Preservation had decent foresight, why create the prophecies at all? 2. Preservation's pawn was fairly well controlled by Ruin for most of the trilogy. It was Ruin's mistake in killing Elend that caused his downfall. 3. The main thing that kept Ruin from ultimate power was that he could not find his body. This had nothing to do with the prophecies 4. Preservations ultimate purpose is directly opposite to all of the deaths that took place under TLR. 5. Preservation created the mists that Ruin then corrupted to create a reason to resort to the prophecies. 6. Even before the Alendi's death, his status had already caused war to run rampant. Because of Preservation's "foresight", the planet was moved from its goldilocks zone to one that was inhospitable to life. The remain population was placed under a millenium of oppression and genocide. A thousand years of cultural and technological advances were lost or hidden. That is the equivalent of going from Rome to William the Conqueror. The people had to be genetically changed to even allow their survival through the disaster that was Preservation's plan. If anything, Preservation's goal was reached inspite of most of its actions. Preservations very name means basicailly staying at the status quo. Why would something that had a goal of remaining the same have a powerful ability to see into the future? Cultivation on the other hand has a reason to have powerful foresight as it's goal is growth, not remaining the same. Odium could be double edged. Like someone said, it could entail the revenge aspect. More likely to me, is "blind hatred". Its hatred would be so intense that it wouldn't even care about the future, only the present. That might explain why it killed Devotion-its direct opposite, Honor-something that often prevents hatred from taking over, and Dominion-good rule is generally antagonistic to hatred. I have to disagree with most of this. Preservation was fighting against Ruin the entire time. Both of them were playing the long game, relative to human time-scales. Both of them could presumably see into the future to some extent. Given how balanced the game was, Preservation had to lose some pawns in order to get to check-mate. The best chess players set up situations so that even if a key piece gets taken, they still have a victory condition. That's how I see Preservation's setup: He moved pieces around, essentially blindfolded (e.g. from the very distant past) and still managed to get a win condition, even against Ruin playing with his full cognitive powers. Not even stalemate: checkmate. Vin was taken? Marsh freed her. The prophecies were corrupted? The corruptions were short-sighted, the Kandra had backups, and the most important bits made it through unscathed. The mists were corrupted? They figured out a way around it by the end. Basically, you describe some of the short-term losses Preservation experienced/considered acceptable as a build-up to a much bigger win. Sure, if Preservation had had his way completely untrammeled, the world wouldn't have been blighted (although it wouldn't have improved much from feudalism either...), but with Ruin around and more powerful, not blighting the world just wasn't an option. It was going to happen one way or another. Better, from the view of Preservation, to go the way that ultimately has life survive the experience "essentially" unchanged. Also, I think you are underestimating the prophecies and overestimating Ruin's modifications. I managed to guess that Sazed was the Hero of Ages even before the book HoA came out, from what I was able to glean from FE and WoA. There are many other prophecies that survived, such as the Kandra prophecy that the Hero of Ages would come to the Kandra Homeland and bring an Army of Allomancer's with him that would save them all. (For those who don't get it: Sazed went to the Kandra homeland and protected the Atium from Ruin long enough for Elend to come. He gave Elend the Atium, which was in turn distributed to all the Seers, who then protected the Homeland and burned the Atium long enough for Ruin to not get it. This also gave Vin motivation to kill Ruin and Sazed the option to take up both powers. Ding! Prophecy preserved and fulfilled.) Also, TLR, with just a hint of Preservations power, told the Kandra about the need to remove their Blessings, which was very much a prophecy, and very much a part of the longer game between the two powers. In short, despite setbacks, Preservation definitely managed the deeper game. That's all we are claiming! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormfather Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 so this thread was linked to in the Stormlight forms, and I had some thoughts on it. Specifically on Odium. so the Shards have future sight to one degree or another, and the real question is how much does Odium have, right? To me it seems like Odium has a great deal simply because he is able to see what will keep a world in chaos, in the Elantris world he knew what would shut down the magic system and also get rid of his opposite. The other one he took out, Dominion, seems like a natural one to take out as well because, for me, it brings to mind great power. Someone that is able to control things is stronger than that thing. So if Odium could take out a strong shard, then there are fewer people to worry about stopping him. To me it seems like the natural opposite of Odium would be Devotion, and thus his chief rival that would be able to undo whatever he has planned but Dominion would be about an equal threat. Also Brandon has said that Sel was the most Cosmere aware of the worlds, so they would be the ones noticing what he is doing. To me this means that the people were exploring the cosmere, but it also means that the shards are noticing what he was/is up to. So why not take them out and go unnoticed in his plans? I think he hasn't worried about Scadrial for two reasons, 1- Ruin and Preservation were keeping each other busy and thus not a threat to him and 2- even if they did come after him, he is probably more powerful than them since they were putting their essence in metals/mist. They were effectively taking themselves out for him through their bickering. It is also possible that he couldn't find them because of what they did to their bodies. Now that Sazed has formed them into Harmony, it seems like Odium is more likely to take them out. This brings up two new issues for Odium: 1- Does he really need to worry about them? His plans may be so far gone that Harmony is unlikely to change anything. 2- Can he take on Harmony? Harmony now has the power of two shards, this makes him a larger threat than a single shard. But back to the original thing of Odium. I think he can see far into the future to know what he needs to do to bring about his plans, but the difference is he is looking long term and may not be focused on the short term issues. It doesn't seem like he has gone after Hoid much, though I may be completely wrong, and I don't think Hoid would be able to take on someone with the power of a shard. This could play into being a good thing because while Odium is patient and seems to know what he is doing, he also seems to ignore the short term in favor of being patient. Thus he may give ground, and end up giving so much ground that he looses in the long run. But it would probably be a long, hard battle because he would have a VERY through plan. Anyway, just some random thoughts on Odium. I could be wrong, but I thought I would bounce it off some of yall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingKong Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Does a Shard's Intent determines whether its holder can see into the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 As described by Honor quoted above, the shattered window analogy, it seems they can all see possible futures. Whether or not they can determine the actual future depends on several factors; one being their Intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 UPDATE: We've got confirmation on the basics of this: Source: (Paraphrase) Q: When Honor speaks of his inability to see the future, he likens it to a shattering window. Is this related to the fact that in the not-too-distant future, he himself will be splintered? Or is it more a matter of Intent; e.g., Cultivation (and Preservation?) is geared toward future development, whereas Honor is geared toward current behavior. A: This is not related to his impending splintering, it is a matter of differing Intents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 Nice one Chaos! I personally believed Odium left Scadrial alone because there was nothing for him to really do there for millenia. Ruin was imprisoned for what might as well have been forever, and Preservation was all but mindless. Scadrial had made itself the way he wanted it to be, there was no one there to challenge him there. Now that Sazed is there, who knows what odium will do. One one hand Sazed has two Shards, and Odium has only one. However Ruin and Preservation aren't full powered Shards. Ruin put himself into the creation of life on Scadrial, and Preservation did the same only more so. It's possible that Sazed may not be all that much stronger then Odium. I think that Odium hasn't done much of anything that would tie up his powers, or he has followed his intent so closely that power hasn't "been expended in a way he was hesitant to do". If Odium corrupts the creatures that other Shards have made, to become the Voidbringers, rather then making his own, he could still be near or at full power. Regardless, if Brandon ever writes a conflux book, Scadrial better be ready as well. Three things.First, Sanderson has said that Harmony is the most powerful being in the Cosmere. It is unlikely that Rayse could defeat him. Second, isn't Rayse trapped on his own planet? I realize that the whole Desolation thing might throw that off but... Third, could we start calling Odium by his Shardholder's name, Rayse? We do that for Sazed, why not Rayse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 It's been a full three years since that post, Stormgate. If there's something new to contribute, this long in the future, it's time to make a new topic. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 It's been a full three years since that post, Stormgate. If there's something new to contribute, this long in the future, it's time to make a new topic. Thanks! He probably accidentally followed a link to this topc through the "similar topics" links sometimes at the bottom of the page. I know that's tripped me up before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph-Naught he/him Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Something that interested me in reading Shadows of Self is that Harmony tells Wax very specific information about how technological advancement was supposed to go, saying something along the lines of they should've had the radio a century ago and have no interest in aviation which he finds troubling. Ruin may not have been as adept at seeing the future as Preservation but I am thinking that holding both Ruin and Preservation has given Sazed a more complete view of how the future can or will unfold than Odium or other shards - his worry about the people's disinterest in aviation made me think he's already a bit aware of the events that may unfold in the third Mistborn trilogy and is trying to push the people of Scadrial towards that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Or he's just using Southern Scadrial's advancement as an estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Or he's just using Southern Scadrial's advancement as an estimate. I find that unlikely, as allomantic machines surely changed the flow of technological advancement. Edited February 9, 2016 by DreamEternal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Or someone (or something) is actively holding back Scadrial's technological progress. Edited February 9, 2016 by EagleOfTheForestPath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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