Awakening Hemalurgic spikes

[ScadrianTank he/him]

The Set's method of creating spikes non-lethally — potentially even completely synthetically — focuses on expanding the pool of conventional Metalborn.
The method I propose here attempts to bypass one of the fundamental limitations of Hemalurgy — that a spike can grant only one power. I theorize that it can be achieved by transforming a piece of a soul trapped in a spike into a kind of spren via Awakening.

The core of this idea stems from the belief that while a spike can only transplant a single piece of spiritweb, so long as that piece is singular it can grant multiple benefits.  For example, if one stole a spren bond, they would still be able to use both Surges that the bond grants.

The simplest approach to Awakening a spike would be more like a lock from the Ghostbloods hideout — a spike with a conditional off switch. Awaken a regular spike with a Command ~similar to "I Respect those who protect Scadrial." The idea here is that if the recipient of the spike believes that they are using the power granted to oppose Scadrial or hear its command phrase — Respect in this case — the spike would either go inert or destroy itself.

The more interesting approach would be to create a spike of several powers and attributes and Awaken it to be a spren. Since we would be transplanting a whole spren instead of a mishmash of Identities and souls, I theorize that a spike like that can grant multiple benefits. Given that the spike would be at least partially self-aware, you can give it commands and command codes like to a Lifeless, autonomy to revoke some or all of its benefits, and potentially mess with the bearer's soul like Aux does in TSM. It feels intuitive to me that a spike like that would grant either an Allomantic power and a spiritual attribute (like mental fortitude) or one Allomantic and one Feruchemical power. They seem balanced, for lack of a better word. Ruin's body as a spike, Preservation's soul as a power, and an attribute as a mind feel right to me. Just as Ruin's power, Preservation's power, and their combined power seem to fit well together.

I would start with a nicrosil or atium spike and a Command ~like: "I live to Protect Scadrial and empower my bearer to do the same" and go from there.

Immediate problems and challenges:
1. Figuring out a Command that works
2. Sourcing enough Investiture for Awakening
3. Figuring out the correct metal for a spike
4. Figuring out a correct bind point for a spike
5. Figuring out how to transfer different attributes and powers to a single spike
6. Creating an entity that's closer to Vivena's blade than a full spren, because it seems that a full being without their own, even limited, body can drive the user insane FAST
7. Even if that spike grants benefits, there is a possibility that they would be different from usual, in a regular Surge → Fused Surge type of way, because in a sense we are corrupting Ruin's art with Endowment's Investiture.
8. A Rosharan spren is made of a lot of Investiture, so the result might be limited by the spike's capacity for Investiture. Not that it stopped Nightblood

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

I theorize that it can be achieved by transforming a piece of a soul trapped in a spike into a kind of spren via Awakening.

It is extremely difficult to Awaken a Spike, and there are likely to be many unintended side effects - WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

Alright, thanks. Last question for me tonight - so, when a Hemalurgic spike steals something, then it's storing Investiture in it, yeah? So could you - could you do something with that Investiture? Like... say I'm on Nalthis, and just theoretically, I use a Hemalurgic spike to steal a lot of Breath - can I use that Investiture to Awaken something? Could I Awaken the spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That... you'd need a lot of Investiture to Awaken a spike.

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

Because it's already charged up with something else?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

Quote

clyguy

Could you Awaken a Hemalurgic spike and put it in somebody, and would that have crazy effects?

Brandon Sanderson

That would have crazy effects. And it would be very hard.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Remember, a Spike is metal, so you already need to be Ninth Heightening or more, and it would require many more breaths than Nightblood needed, because it is already invested. If you were trying to replicate a spren, then that is even harder.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Remember, a Spike is metal, so you already need to be Ninth Heightening or more, and it would require many more breaths than Nightblood needed, because it is already invested.

Scadrians have an Awakened Steelmind in TSM. So we only have to wait a few centuries, I suppose.

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Scadrians have an Awakened Steelmind in TSM. So we only have to wait a few centuries, I suppose.

Right, but the Awakened Steelmind does not mean it was awakened with Breath's using Nalthian Awakening. WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

 So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening?
Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken,

Awakening will eventually come to mean Sentient through investiture, such that it can follow commands. Most likely, the Awakened Steelmind is a Steelmind with supplementary Nicrosil Investiture allowing it to perform as a rudimentary AI.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I theorize that it can be achieved by transforming a piece of a soul trapped in a spike into a kind of spren via Awakening.

As said before, a Hemalurgic spike would resist being Awakened. Anything invested resists being invested.

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The core of this idea stems from the belief that while a spike can only transplant a single piece of spiritweb, so long as that piece is singular it can grant multiple benefits.  For example, if one stole a spren bond, they would still be able to use both Surges that the bond grants.

A bond stolen by a spike can be broken by a spren. To get Surgebinding powers via Hemalurgy you would need to spike connection out of the Radiant and spike the power out of the Spren. And because spren grants two powers at once, you have the same problem as with stealing powers from a Mistborn - 1 spike for 1 power only. 

Spoiler

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

But going back to the core of this idea, it's not true. You've seen in TLM, a single spike can collect multiple spirit webs at once. Set was making a single spike out of 20-30 people. But they were able to make it grant only 1 power for a short time. The problem with stealing from different people is identity contamination - each fragment has a different identity and it doesn't mix well with others. The second one was that they were stealing raw investiture, possibly hard-coded to different powers - what powers lay in your genes is determined at birth, thus it's hard-coded into your Preservation's fragment, likely even if you don't have enough to actually be Snapped. You would need to code this investiture to a specific power - so you are on the right track. However it's possible to use one spike to steal multiple powers and to grant multiple powers - at least that's been theorized. Identity is the biggest issue here. 

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Aerlion

Is it possible to use Hemalurgic spikes to steal multiple attributes from the same person?

Brandon Sanderson

No. At least, this isn't thought to be possible

General Signed Books 2018 (March 20, 2018)

 

Spoiler

PrncRny (paraphrased)

How and when is the type of Misting you become determined? Can you tell what type of Misting you are before you Snap?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's determined at birth. The cosmere by combining 3 aspects of self. Your physical self, mental self, and spiritual self. The spiritual self is tied to the Investiture of the world that you come from. When an Allomancer snaps, a piece of their soul is broken and some of that power leaks into them, giving them their abilities.

Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)

 

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The simplest approach to Awakening a spike would be more like a lock from the Ghostbloods hideout — a spike with a conditional off switch. Awaken a regular spike with a Command ~similar to "I Respect those who protect Scadrial." The idea here is that if the recipient of the spike believes that they are using the power granted to oppose Scadrial or hear its command phrase — Respect in this case — the spike would either go inert or destroy itself.

The "Respect me" was not an Awakening Command. This was just a security phrase that can change. We don't know what was the Command for Awakening the lock but it partially resembles Lifeless as you can change what is the security phrase. It's some advanced Awakening and I doubt what you proposed as the Command to actually be a Command because it doesn't really mean anything. 

And how can an Awakened object destroy itself?

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The more interesting approach would be to create a spike of several powers and attributes and Awaken it to be a spren. Since we would be transplanting a whole spren instead of a mishmash of Identities and souls, I theorize that a spike like that can grant multiple benefits. Given that the spike would be at least partially self-aware, you can give it commands and command codes like to a Lifeless, autonomy to revoke some or all of its benefits, and potentially mess with the bearer's soul like Aux does in TSM. It feels intuitive to me that a spike like that would grant either an Allomantic power and a spiritual attribute (like mental fortitude) or one Allomantic and one Feruchemical power. They seem balanced, for lack of a better word. Ruin's body as a spike, Preservation's soul as a power, and an attribute as a mind feel right to me. Just as Ruin's power, Preservation's power, and their combined power seem to fit well together.

Making a spren out of a spike is ridiculously expensive. You would likely still need to get rid of all of those different identities, because they will influence the entity and you would still need to steal powers you want this spren to give you. But in general it can work, but it's a very overengineered solution to something that can be partially achieved by blanking identities of your donors. Coding it to specific powers is another problem. 

But it would be like Nightblood or Vivenne's sword, not Lifeless. Not additional commands can be given to them, you need to imprint them during the Awakening process. And if you're using Breaths for this - Endowment's investiture - then this mixing of investiture would likely corrupt and change the way powers are manifested, which is another problem. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Say you have a Feruchemist who pours Identity into a metalmind. Then subsequently loses that mind, and then is later Awakened? Would that mind retain the personality of--

*Everyone laughs, Scottish man says "it's 11 o'clock at night, give the man a break!"*

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so they store Identity—which I haven't told you what it does--

Questioner

Yep. We don't know.

Brandon Sanderson

And then you Awaken it, and then you want to know if it has the personality of the person?

Questioner

Yeah, or if it's able to communicate in any way.

Brandon Sanderson

Um, if-- how much Awakened is it? Is it Nightblood-level Awakened? Or is it just regular Awakened?

Questioner

Sure let's say Nightblood-level.

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood-level. So it's-- so the Investiture has been granted sapience. And it's got Investiture from somebody else stuffed in it. I can foresee a scenario where that has an influence, but it's not going to be the personality of the person who stuffed it in. I can see some circumstances where they can-- where the Investiture of the object can make use of that in some way, but...

Oh boy, that was a weird one.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I would start with a nicrosil or atium spike and a Command ~like: "I live to Protect Scadrial and empower my bearer to do the same" and go from there.

That Command actually means something and I like it. However it more or less means it will only give you powers if you're using them to protect Scadrial, which is very vague at best. But why" I"? Just "live" as "you-the-spike live." Vasher doesn't Awaken Lifeless with "I Awaken," it's just "Awaken to my Breath" - you're Commanding the entity and investiture, not yourself.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But going back to the core of this idea, it's not true. You've seen in TLM, a single spike can collect multiple spirit webs at once. Set was making a single spike out of 20-30 people. But they were able to make it grant only 1 power for a short time. The problem with stealing from different people is identity contamination - each fragment has a different identity and it doesn't mix well with others. The second one was that they were stealing raw investiture, possibly hard-coded to different powers - what powers lay in your genes is determined at birth, thus it's hard-coded into your Preservation's fragment, likely even if you don't have enough to actually be Snapped. You would need to code this investiture to a specific power - so you are on the right track.

I wrote an entire post on that, thanks... Identity contamination might be the cause of the problem for the Set. The only time it's explicitly mentioned in the book is by Marsh in relation to why the Set can't Compound. Their main problem was as you mentioned — they expected raw Investiture to grant power without shaping or coding it in some way. Regardless, the Set's method has no relation to what I'm talking about because they are taking the same thing multiple times from different sources in the same spike. I need to have different parts of the spirit web, which are stolen with different metals, into a single spike.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

. But in general it can work, but it's a very overengineered solution to something that can be partially achieved by blanking identities of your donors.

Again, Identity is not the issue here. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And how can an Awakened object destroy itself?

If an origami can walk it can tear itself in half. I assumed that if an entity can grant a power, it can take it away or destroy its contents.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I doubt what you proposed as the Command to actually be a Command because it doesn't really mean anything. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But why" I"? Just "live" as "you-the-spike live." Vasher doesn't Awaken Lifeless with "I Awaken," it's just "Awaken to my Breath" - you're Commanding the entity and investiture, not yourself.

Good points, I suck at phrasing.

[alder24]

31 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Regardless, the Set's method has no relation to what I'm talking about because they are taking the same thing multiple times from different sources in the same spike. I need to have different parts of the spirit web, which are stolen with different metals, into a single spike.

Then it's easier to take a single spike and charge it with multiple powers from different people or steal multiple powers at once. Even if we don't know how to do it, it would be much easier to figure out than what you propose. 

32 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Again, Identity is not the issue here. 

It is, as per WoB identity can influence the entity created with Awakening. And when you're stealing powers drom different people, then you have a problem.

34 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

If an origami can walk it can tear itself in half. I assumed that if an entity can grant a power, it can take it away or destroy its contents.

Can you tear yourself in half by walking? No. At best you can make it deny powers if certain conditions are not met. Spren can't destroy themselves, they can't even change their "content." They are what they are and you need something external to destroy them, like Nightblood. They can deny powers, Syl did that to Kal in WoR.