Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 Shardblades are a physical manifestation of a spren, but are they able to be pushed/pulled on with allomancy? I keep going back and forth trying to decide if you could. If you could, What would be the difference between a live blade and a dead one, if any? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 19 minutes ago, Pineap-spider said: Shardblades are a physical manifestation of a spren, but are they able to be pushed/pulled on with allomancy? I keep going back and forth trying to decide if you could. If you could, What would be the difference between a live blade and a dead one, if any? Investiture resists investiture. Everything that is invested would be hard to push with Allomancy. The more invested something is, the harder it is to push it. Shardblades, living or dead, are highly invested and they would be really, really hard to push. You would need to wield the full power of the Well of Ascension or use duralumin with a really strong steelpush - both options aren't possible for your average Mistborn. They are however metals - god metals - and a dead blade would be a little easier to be pushed than a living one, but still too invested to make any difference. WoBs: Spoiler Questioner Could you use steel or iron to Push or Pull off Shardblades or Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson Anything that's Invested resists, the more Invested it is the more it resists. Questioner Okay, so you could technically-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner --if it was not charged? Brandon Sanderson Well-- Certain objects just have more Investiture and are more purely of the Investiture. A Shardblade's going to be really hard, but it's possible, it's just going to be really, really hard. Even more hard than an absolutely full Feruchemical metalmind because the Shardblade is being created directly out of the Investiture, it's basically all Investiture, it's not a metal that is Invested. It's going to be real hard. Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016) Spoiler Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) Spoiler Questioner Would Allomancy affect Shardplate or Shardblades? Brandon Sanderson It cannot affected Shardblades. Well, "cannot" is a strong word. Things with innate investiture are much more difficult to affect with any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard, for instance-- Szeth is not able to bind people, or Lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same Allomancy would not be able to Push on it without some help. Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it. Questioner I was just wondering if it's actually metal. Brandon Sanderson Oh yes. It is metal-ish... it is metal enough for Allomancy to work on it. Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014) Spoiler Questioner I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. Brandon Sanderson It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is. Questioner Is that gonna be the answer for all of these? Brandon Sanderson Probably! Questioner How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on... Questioner Not in a person. Brandon Sanderson Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things. Questioner How about a metalmind that is full? Brandon Sanderson That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard. Questioner #2 A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish? Brandon Sanderson Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah. Questioner So that'd be the same for Shardplate too? Brandon Sanderson Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder. Questioner A Half-shard? Brandon Sanderson A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate. Questioner Nightblood? I imagine that being hard. Brandon Sanderson Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade. Questioner Far beyond metal inside a person? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is. Questioner If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier. Questioner That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless? Brandon Sanderson A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite. Questioner A soulstamped piece of metal? Brandon Sanderson A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp. Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider Posted January 17 Author Report Share Posted January 17 6 hours ago, alder24 said: Investiture resists investiture. Everything that is invested would be hard to push with Allomancy. The more invested something is, the harder it is to push it. Shardblades, living or dead, are highly invested and they would be really, really hard to push. You would need to wield the full power of the Well of Ascension or use duralumin with a really strong steelpush - both options aren't possible for your average Mistborn. They are however metals - god metals - and a dead blade would be a little easier to be pushed than a living one, but still too invested to make any difference. WoBs: Hide contents Questioner Could you use steel or iron to Push or Pull off Shardblades or Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson Anything that's Invested resists, the more Invested it is the more it resists. Questioner Okay, so you could technically-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner --if it was not charged? Brandon Sanderson Well-- Certain objects just have more Investiture and are more purely of the Investiture. A Shardblade's going to be really hard, but it's possible, it's just going to be really, really hard. Even more hard than an absolutely full Feruchemical metalmind because the Shardblade is being created directly out of the Investiture, it's basically all Investiture, it's not a metal that is Invested. It's going to be real hard. Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016) Hide contents Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) Hide contents Questioner Would Allomancy affect Shardplate or Shardblades? Brandon Sanderson It cannot affected Shardblades. Well, "cannot" is a strong word. Things with innate investiture are much more difficult to affect with any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard, for instance-- Szeth is not able to bind people, or Lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same Allomancy would not be able to Push on it without some help. Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it. Questioner I was just wondering if it's actually metal. Brandon Sanderson Oh yes. It is metal-ish... it is metal enough for Allomancy to work on it. Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014) Hide contents Questioner I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. Brandon Sanderson It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is. Questioner Is that gonna be the answer for all of these? Brandon Sanderson Probably! Questioner How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on... Questioner Not in a person. Brandon Sanderson Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things. Questioner How about a metalmind that is full? Brandon Sanderson That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard. Questioner #2 A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish? Brandon Sanderson Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah. Questioner So that'd be the same for Shardplate too? Brandon Sanderson Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder. Questioner A Half-shard? Brandon Sanderson A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate. Questioner Nightblood? I imagine that being hard. Brandon Sanderson Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade. Questioner Far beyond metal inside a person? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is. Questioner If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier. Questioner That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless? Brandon Sanderson A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite. Questioner A soulstamped piece of metal? Brandon Sanderson A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp. Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014) that's really useful, thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidlit Man he/him Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) It makes me wonder if some sort of super powered steel-pusher, with multiple Hemalurgic spikes would be able to affect them at all, of if it still would be practically impossible Edited January 20 by Voidlit Man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 17 hours ago, Voidlit Man said: It makes me wonder if some sort of super powered steel-pusher, with multiple Hemalurgic spikes would be able to affect them at all, of if it still would be practically impossible Same here, though I imagine that Lord Ruler, Bands of Mourning, or A-duralumin with an entire stomach full of steel/iron levels of power would be necessary to even nudge one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux he/him Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 alder24's second WoB answers this. No idea if this is the upper or lower bound for moving Shardblades and Plate, but if you have sufficient power to move a planet, modify genetics on a global scale, change large scale topography, and become a Sliver just by holding the power, then yes, you can also Push Shardblades. I guess that level of granularity is useful where you can squish a single Shardbearer and not have to resort to throwing a mountain at them or yeet their planet into the sun, but you probably have bigger items on your agenda at that point. Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Duxredux said: alder24's second WoB answers this. No idea if this is the upper or lower bound for moving Shardblades and Plate, but if you have sufficient power to move a planet, modify genetics on a global scale, change large scale topography, and become a Sliver just by holding the power, then yes, you can also Push Shardblades. I guess that level of granularity is useful where you can squish a single Shardbearer and not have to resort to throwing a mountain at them or yeet their planet into the sun, but you probably have bigger items on your agenda at that point. Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) The third WoB made it sound like it would be easier than moving a mountain or requiring the Well of Ascension. It would still be very, very hard but maybe someone with Rashek's level of Investiture could do it with a determined Flaring push or with duralumin thrown into the mix (plus, this WoB's from 2014, not 2012, and it directly from Brandon himself, so it may be more trustworthy). Quote Questioner Would Allomancy affect Shardplate or Shardblades? Brandon Sanderson It cannot affected Shardblades. Well, "cannot" is a strong word. Things with innate investiture are much more difficult to affect with any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard, for instance-- Szeth is not able to bind people, or Lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same Allomancy would not be able to Push on it without some help. Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it. Questioner I was just wondering if it's actually metal. Brandon Sanderson Oh yes. It is metal-ish... it is metal enough for Allomancy to work on it. Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 10 hours ago, Trusk'our said: The third WoB made it sound like it would be easier than moving a mountain or requiring the Well of Ascension. It would still be very, very hard but maybe someone with Rashek's level of Investiture could do it with a determined Flaring push or with duralumin thrown into the mix (plus, this WoB's from 2014, not 2012, and it directly from Brandon himself, so it may be more trustworthy). Per WoB from 2016, pushing Shardblade is beyond the power of anyone we have seen up to that point. So Rashek would not be strong enough, nor would Wax with Bands. I suspect this also means even with Duralumin these would not be strong enough. Spoiler Questioner Are Shardblades Allomantically pushable? Brandon Sanderson By someone who has more power than anyone you've seen so far, yes. Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) 3 hours ago, therunner said: Per WoB from 2016, pushing Shardblade is beyond the power of anyone we have seen up to that point. So Rashek would not be strong enough, nor would Wax with Bands. I suspect this also means even with Duralumin these would not be strong enough. Hide contents Questioner Are Shardblades Allomantically pushable? Brandon Sanderson By someone who has more power than anyone you've seen so far, yes. Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016) I really think you are over-estimating this WoB. Brandon really does like misleading verbiage It says "somebody with more power" - not "somebody and all power they can access" Because the former is already false as Sazed is already a Shard and he somebody we have seen I really doubt that he is implying Sazed could not affect plate or blade This WoB is just after Bands of Mourning release - close enough that I doubt Sanderson is implying that you could not use the Bands and be effective, as he would not yet expect most of his audience to have "seen" that in the book yet. All that said, taken literally, it would imply that of the people with access to A-Steel or A-Iron by 2016 (Vin, Kelsier, Rashek, Inquisitors, Wax) none of them could have accomplished it without shenanigans (such as compounding). Unknown if Duralumin was factored in, but I would agree that a Duralumin Push is probably not enough on it's own (though a Duralumin Push by Rashek or an Inquisitor that has Hemalurigically enhanced Steel may do it). Edited January 21 by Treamayne SPAG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 (edited) 23 hours ago, Treamayne said: I really think you are over-estimating this WoB. Not really, I am just literally quoting what the WoB says. Quote Brandon really does like misleading verbiage True, however here he simply answer a direct question. "Are Shardblades allomatically pushable?" "Yes, by someone with more power than anyone you have seen so far". There is no attempt to mislead, it is a direct answer to direct question, with a bit of additional information. Misleading answer would be saying "Yes, by someone you have seen." and meaning literal Shard, when that is clearly not what the questioner meant. Quote It says "somebody with more power" - not "somebody and all power they can access" Because the former is already false as Sazed is already a Shard and he somebody we have seen I really doubt that he is implying Sazed could not affect plate or blade Sazed is not Allomancer, he is at first Feruchemist, then Shard. Hence, he is not part of the question at all since he is not using Allomancy, and so the answer is not false because of his existence as a Shard. Quote This WoB is just after Bands of Mourning release - close enough that I doubt Sanderson is implying that you could not use the Bands and be effective, as he would not yet expect most of his audience to have "seen" that in the book yet. Bands make you a counterfeit Fullborn, you won't be as powerful as Rashek was (as he made himself into one using WoA). Rashek > Bands. Hence, wielder of Bands won't be able to affect Shardblade. Quote All that said, taken literally, it would imply that of the people with access to A-Steel or A-Iron by 2016 (Vin, Kelsier, Rashek, Inquisitors, Wax) none of them could have accomplished it without shenanigans (such as compounding). Unknown if Duralumin was factored in, but I would agree that a Duralumin Push is probably not enough on it's own (though a Duralumin Push by Rashek or an Inquisitor that has Hemalurigically enhanced Steel may do it). Yes, that is basically what I said, though I would add that I don't think Duralumin would be enough even in Rashek. Also regarding Bands, they are less Invested than a Shardblade, hence I doubt they can provide enough power to Push something more Invested then themselves. Edited January 22 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux he/him Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 (edited) 21 hours ago, therunner said: Quote It says "somebody with more power" - not "somebody and all power they can access" Because the former is already false as Sazed is already a Shard and he somebody we have seen I really doubt that he is implying Sazed could not affect plate or blade Sazed is not Allomancer, he is at first Feruchemist, then Shard. Hence, he is not part of the question at all since he is not using Allomancy, and so the answer is not false because of his existence as a Shard. ...Seriously? What about Vin as a Mistborn holding the power at the Well of Ascension? Vin as Preservation moving the whole planet? Unless the planet was moved via Allomancy, can we agree that the strongest Steelpush that we have seen thus far is Vin flattening Kredik Shaw? We've seen a Mistborn in the process of Ascending to Preservation Push a fortress into the dirt. That earlier WoB where Brandon said that a Mistborn holding the full power of the Well of Ascension could Push Shardblades? We've seen that scenario, just without a Shardblade on Scadrial and Vin decided to give up the power rather than utilize it. We've definitely seen someone with the proper powerset and access to sufficient raw Investiture to Push a Shardblade on screen back in Era 1 without even touching Era 2, it just wasn't relevant. Considering if you stuff enough Allomantic metal in a very weak Mistborn you can do crazy stuff like outrun electricity with Duralumin-enhanced Bendalloy, I'm not prepared to say that it's impossible for a Mistborn to Push a Shardblade with Duralumin and an 10 kilo bag of steel bearings in their gut, but after a certain scale it becomes impractical. Duralumin doesn't allow for that much finesse and it takes time to swallow that much metal, assuming you can suppress the gag reflex of having that much weight in your stomach. It's also mostly pointless if you finally get this setup to work, rip the Shardblade out of the Shardbearer's hands with a Push, it automatically gets dismissed, and they just resummon it while you've Pushed yourself to the next city. Pushing Plate might be more useful and likely has a lower power requirement. Edited January 23 by Duxredux clarity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Yes, I agree with @Duxredux. We've seen people holding power that can push on a Shardblade. I think a Mistborn with a stomach full of steel and duralumin can push on it (Wayne outran electricity), additional Hemalurgic spikes would help, or being Rashek would help even more. But just because it's possible doesn't mean it's useful. Burning the entire reserve of steel just to push on a Shardblade that can be resummoned immediately is pointless and a Mistborn will simply be killed without any steel. However there are no Mistborn anymore, so it just leaves Hemalurgist as the only people that can do it and Hemalurgy is forbidden for now. Simply speaking, there we've seen people that have the power to push on a Shardblade, an average Mistborn, possibly with the need of additional power enhancements, with ridiculous amounts of steel and duralumin would likely be able to do that, but that's simply too impractical and it really won't help in a real fight. The same goes with pushing on a Shardplate - you won't kill anybody by pushing on their Shardplate (unless they aren't Radiant and they stand on the edge of a cliff like Eshonai in WoR) so it's simply a waste of resources to even try to push on Shards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 (edited) 17 hours ago, Duxredux said: ...Seriously? What about Vin as a Mistborn holding the power at the Well of Ascension? Vin as Preservation moving the whole planet? Unless the planet was moved via Allomancy, can we agree that the strongest Steelpush that we have seen thus far is Vin flattening Kredik Shaw? We've seen a Mistborn in the process of Ascending to Preservation Push a fortress into the dirt. That earlier WoB where Brandon said that a Mistborn holding the full power of the Well of Ascension could Push Shardblades? We've seen that scenario, just without a Shardblade on Scadrial and Vin decided to give up the power rather than utilize it. Vin was Ascending. She was not capable of it without that. Shards are well, Shards. She was at that point regenerating just from holding all those Mists, just like Radiant would. She was no longer running just on Allomancy. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: We've seen people holding power that can push on a Shardblade. That sentence literally contradicts the WoB, so I will take author's word over yours. Quote Questioner Are Shardblades Allomantically pushable? Brandon Sanderson By someone who has more power than anyone you've seen so far, yes. Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016) Not sure how much clearer it can be. Shardblades are more Invested than literally anything on Scadrial, short of pure Godmetals (possibly, Concious entities are more difficult to affect than innert matter, so Shardblades as living bodies will be more difficult than just Tavanavastium/Koravellium). However, clearly I won't convince anyone. Edited January 23 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 (edited) 34 minutes ago, therunner said: That sentence literally contradicts the WoB. Quote Questioner Are Shardblades Allomantically pushable? Brandon Sanderson By someone who has more power than anyone you've seen so far, yes. Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016) Not sure how much clearer it can be. It means it's wrong. Both Rashek and Vin, while holding the full power of the Well, and later Vin when she was Ascending, were powerful enough to push on a Shardblade, per this WoB: Spoiler Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) This is contradictory to the WoB you've posted, because we've seen people holding and using the power of the Well, thus your WoB is simply incorrect. Another WoB said "Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it," which means that now it's only a matter of discussing how strong it needs to be. And there is this WoB: Spoiler Questioner Would a Mistborn be able to push and pull on a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson That's an excellent question. The answer is, it would be very hard. In Mistborn, anything that's pushing on certain metals, particularly infused metals, gets progressively harder the more Investiture they've got in them. And Shardblades tend to be very highly Invested; they'd be very difficult to push on. If you got the right Allomancer, they could push on it. But I would say, in most cases, no. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) "the right Allomancer," which can narrow it down to something like Elend/Rashek's levels of power with duralumin of course, because they are at the very top of the Allomantic strength spectrum. I simply disagree with this WoB because there are many other WoBs claiming something different. I agree a normal Mistborn won't be able to push on a Shardblade unless he swallows a truckload of steel, a Coinshot has no chances of doing that alone. But Rashek with the power of the Well can, Raskek without it would be able to do it, he can use F-nicrosil to strengthen his steel pushes (if it works like most metalminds), he can use duralumin and a lot of steel. It's not practical or useful, but possible. This question was asked a lot of times, each time Brandon gave a slightly different answer. The general answer is that it's really hard, but possible in the right circumstances, and because there are more WoBs which specify what kind of power is needed, I think there is enough to say that your WoB is mistaken about not seeing anybody with that kind of power. Edit: And we've already seen Vin pulling on a god metal twice in Era 1. Yes, it was an Atium alloy, not alive, not as invested as a Shardblade, but it's still a god metal, it should have been hard. Yet it was possible. This might suggest that pushing on a Shardblade isn't that hard as you think. TFE ch 30: Quote She didn’t bother to grab it from the place she had tucked it at her waist. She burned steel, Pushing it out into the air in front of her. Then, she immediately burned iron and yanked on the bead of atium. The vial shattered, the bead heading back toward Vin. She caught it in her mouth, swallowing the lump and forcing it down. Edited January 23 by alder24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 On 1/23/2024 at 11:26 AM, alder24 said: Edit: And we've already seen Vin pulling on a god metal twice in Era 1. Yes, it was an Atium alloy, not alive, not as invested as a Shardblade, but it's still a god metal, it should have been hard. Yet it was possible. This might suggest that pushing on a Shardblade isn't that hard as you think. TFE ch 30: I agree with everything else you've said here, but personally I think this is an example of something which is probably a minor mistake in the book: impure Atium being pushable/pullable like a base metal. We already know many of the modern Cosmere details weren't exactly worked out back then: Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young? Brandon Sanderson They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy. I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin. The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation. For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) and I think that if he made an edited "2.0" of Mistborn to fix some stuff, he'd add a line about how Atium is very hard, or impossible, to push or pull, and then delete all references to using allomancy on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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