Exhaustive analysis of the information available regarding Voidbinding and its possible mechanical behavior

Dofurion · January 20

Well, you see, I open this entry because I am one of those who likes to theorize a lot about the possibilities and limits of the magical systems of the fantasy series and stories that I read. And within the Cosmere cosmology, none has given me as many headaches as voidbinding. And in an effort to collect all the information available from said system, I think I have ended up creating a very feasible scheme and I want you to take a look at it.
I would also like you to forgive any grammatical or spelling mistakes, since English is not my main language.

We know from WoB's that the voidspren's can give access to it, as can the Unmade, but no matter how hard the Fused themselves tried, none of them have been willing to form a Nahel (as seen in RoW). Here I wonder, aren't they looking at it from the wrong point of view? voidspren's, unlike other types of spren, may find it impossible to form an oath in the same way as a Rosharian spren.
My proposal is that in this case to access voidbinding it is through the passions. Now, I know that thinking that Odium is telling the truth is somewhat debatable (although Brandon has already said that it is 50/50[1][2]), let's keep in mind that spren are formed and change according to culture. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think that a system related to them has to do with passions, this being an important cultural sign of the Fused.

How exactly would a bond with a Voidspren work?

Well, if a human felt passionate enough about something to attract a True Voidspren (remembering that they do have reason in the physical realm), it would offer him access to voidbinding in exchange for consuming his "passion." An operation that in practice would be very similar to the Luhel of the Lumar spores, that is, the voidspren would absorb the "passion" excessively and offers the benefit of a voidsurge and the potency depends on the level to which it is willing to reach (the 10 levels mentioned by Kriss).

The control of the "voidsurge's" (for lack of a better name) would be in the hands of the Sprens and not the humans. Being something like the reverse case of the Aviars in First of the Sun, this operation would solve several situations present in the books: That Moash, despite hypothetically having a connection of this type with Odium, does not present apparent benefits [All RoW]. That Renarin's visions occur against his will (in this case, Glys would be driving them), and only after having had one can he reproduce them intentionally [RoW chapter 54].

Another difference with Surgebinding, is that the fuel is Stormlight, in voidbinding they would be the deeper emotions (also known as Passions), and each of the skills would depend on consuming a specific emotion. And Voidlight would simply be a method of increasing those emotions enough to not be consumed. The corresponding emotions would be those expressed by Navani on this page:

Screenshot2024-01-20at00-41-51Navani2.jpg(JPEGImagen6681024pxeles)-Escalado(72).png.27eacf9176e628a5849da7731e698973.png

Also, on a more realmatic level, it would be the opposite of the spren/radiant relationship, since in the latter, the spren identifies a crack in the person's soul[3], and proceeds to fill it with itself, a spren void would exacerbate said crack to The user limit. Likewise, it also gives us a symmetry, where Surgebending is binding to surges (Spren are living Surges), voidbinding is binding to the void, or rather the Voidbringers (Human beings with a lot of emotion to consume)

Quote

Humans are weapons. We singers revere Passion, do we not? How can we throw away such an excellent channeling of it?
—Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days

Summarizing. Voidbinding is a system of magic where Voidspren are attracted to passions strong enough to attract their attention. The bond created is not as firm as a radiant bond; its fuel is emotion, which could consume it until it leaves the human. Without it, definitely (the voidlight would serve more than anything as a crutch so that this does not happen), and most likely the abilities it grants will be more than anything cognitive, as and if a being from the physical realm is linked to one from the cognitive realm in order to manipulate things in the physical. The most logical thing would be that the opposite is also possible: a being from the cognitive realm is linked to one from the physical realm in order to manipulate things in the cognitive realm.

Renarin and Glys (Bonding with a Corrupted Sprens)

Our only practical case does not seem to present any of the characteristics that I have exposed, right? Well, this would be because at first Glys was already a Spren belonging to Honor and Cultivation; he was already within the oath system. From everything I propose, it may be that although he consumes part of Renarin's soul when giving them the visions, he would also be replacing said soul with himself, as all the other radiant Spren do. And more specifically, Glys would be consuming the sadness lingering in him to give him access to the equivalent of Illumination.

Screenshot2024-01-20at01-56-23Glyphs_Index-TheCoppermind.png.fa320cf897378fe1dcadae39ef847d08.png

alder24 · January 20

9 hours ago, Dofurion said:

We know from WoB's that the voidspren's can give access to it, as can the Unmade, but no matter how hard the Fused themselves tried, none of them have been willing to form a Nahel (as seen in RoW). Here I wonder, aren't they looking at it from the wrong point of view? voidspren's, unlike other types of spren, may find it impossible to form an oath in the same way as a Rosharian spren.

A note here. The native "Honor" part in the Surgebinding isn't the Oaths and Ideal it's just the bond between a spren and a person. The Oaths and Ideals were made by Ishar - during one of the first Desolations "wild Surgebinders" were starting to appear after spren tried to mimic Honorblades. Ishar bound them and structured them in the Orders of Knight Radiants and made Oaths and progression of Ideals a core component of every Order, to limit the destructive power of Surgebinders. WoR ch 42 epigraphs:

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

Voidspren are fully capable of forming a Nahel Bond - we see them doing this with Singers and granting them forms of power. We've even seen Voidspren forming a Nahel Bond with humans during the OB Battle of Thaylen Field. This is a Nahel Bond, just like a Radiant bond, but it doesn't grant Singers that much power compared to a Radiant bond.

Spoiler

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Overall it's a very interesting theory. I like the connection to emotions and passions because of the prefix "Void," just like the word "Surge" refers to the powers of creation. It makes sense that Voidbinding will do something with emotions. We have little to no information about Voidbinding so it's hard to say about validity of your theory. The best we have is a strong suggestion that Renarin does Voidbinding, using Stormlight to power different abilities than those in Surgebinding is close to Voidbinding, Voidbinding usually originates from Unmades, but not always, lastly that it has been touched in the past but not fully explored. Not a lot.

Is there temporal symmetry in between the Surge-binding and void-binding charts, from the front and back covers of The Way of Kings? As in, Surgebinding is a re-emerging system of the past, vs Voidbinding being a newly emerging system that will fully exist in the future?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can assume that Voidbinding has not been fully explored, but that parts of it have been looked into in the past. So I wouldn't say that temporal symmetry fully holds.

General Reddit 2019 (Aug. 3, 2019)

bmcclure7 · January 25

On 1/20/2024 at 12:24 AM, Dofurion said:

Well, you see, I open this entry because I am one of those who likes to theorize a lot about the possibilities and limits of the magical systems of the fantasy series and stories that I read. And within the Cosmere cosmology, none has given me as many headaches as voidbinding. And in an effort to collect all the information available from said system, I think I have ended up creating a very feasible scheme and I want you to take a look at it.
I would also like you to forgive any grammatical or spelling mistakes, since English is not my main language.

We know from WoB's that the voidspren's can give access to it, as can the Unmade, but no matter how hard the Fused themselves tried, none of them have been willing to form a Nahel (as seen in RoW). Here I wonder, aren't they looking at it from the wrong point of view? voidspren's, unlike other types of spren, may find it impossible to form an oath in the same way as a Rosharian spren.
My proposal is that in this case to access voidbinding it is through the passions. Now, I know that thinking that Odium is telling the truth is somewhat debatable (although Brandon has already said that it is 50/50[1][2]), let's keep in mind that spren are formed and change according to culture. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think that a system related to them has to do with passions, this being an important cultural sign of the Fused.

How exactly would a bond with a Voidspren work?

Well, if a human felt passionate enough about something to attract a True Voidspren (remembering that they do have reason in the physical realm), it would offer him access to voidbinding in exchange for consuming his "passion." An operation that in practice would be very similar to the Luhel of the Lumar spores, that is, the voidspren would absorb the "passion" excessively and offers the benefit of a voidsurge and the potency depends on the level to which it is willing to reach (the 10 levels mentioned by Kriss).

The control of the "voidsurge's" (for lack of a better name) would be in the hands of the Sprens and not the humans. Being something like the reverse case of the Aviars in First of the Sun, this operation would solve several situations present in the books: That Moash, despite hypothetically having a connection of this type with Odium, does not present apparent benefits [All RoW]. That Renarin's visions occur against his will (in this case, Glys would be driving them), and only after having had one can he reproduce them intentionally [RoW chapter 54].

Another difference with Surgebinding, is that the fuel is Stormlight, in voidbinding they would be the deeper emotions (also known as Passions), and each of the skills would depend on consuming a specific emotion. And Voidlight would simply be a method of increasing those emotions enough to not be consumed. The corresponding emotions would be those expressed by Navani on this page:

Also, on a more realmatic level, it would be the opposite of the spren/radiant relationship, since in the latter, the spren identifies a crack in the person's soul[3], and proceeds to fill it with itself, a spren void would exacerbate said crack to The user limit. Likewise, it also gives us a symmetry, where Surgebending is binding to surges (Spren are living Surges), voidbinding is binding to the void, or rather the Voidbringers (Human beings with a lot of emotion to consume)

Summarizing. Voidbinding is a system of magic where Voidspren are attracted to passions strong enough to attract their attention. The bond created is not as firm as a radiant bond; its fuel is emotion, which could consume it until it leaves the human. Without it, definitely (the voidlight would serve more than anything as a crutch so that this does not happen), and most likely the abilities it grants will be more than anything cognitive, as and if a being from the physical realm is linked to one from the cognitive realm in order to manipulate things in the physical. The most logical thing would be that the opposite is also possible: a being from the cognitive realm is linked to one from the physical realm in order to manipulate things in the cognitive realm.

Renarin and Glys (Bonding with a Corrupted Sprens)

Our only practical case does not seem to present any of the characteristics that I have exposed, right? Well, this would be because at first Glys was already a Spren belonging to Honor and Cultivation; he was already within the oath system. From everything I propose, it may be that although he consumes part of Renarin's soul when giving them the visions, he would also be replacing said soul with himself, as all the other radiant Spren do. And more specifically, Glys would be consuming the sadness lingering in him to give him access to the equivalent of Illumination.

I never thought to draw a connection between the passions and This particular fabril. But indeed it could be some kind of foreshadowing. I suspect that Each void Spren We'll correspond To one of these emotions.

With perhaps the everstorm or some other force Not yet seen serving as the 10th

Dofurion · January 27

On 1/20/2024 at 12:45 PM, alder24 said:

A note here. The native "Honor" part in the Surgebinding isn't the Oaths and Ideal it's just the bond between a spren and a person. The Oaths and Ideals were made by Ishar - during one of the first Desolations "wild Surgebinders" were starting to appear after spren tried to mimic Honorblades. Ishar bound them and structured them in the Orders of Knight Radiants and made Oaths and progression of Ideals a core component of every Order, to limit the destructive power of Surgebinders. WoR ch 42 epigraphs:

Thanks for that clarification. While I was writing, I also remembered that point, but I didn't know how to include it.

On 1/20/2024 at 12:45 PM, alder24 said:

Voidspren are fully capable of forming a Nahel Bond - we see them doing this with Singers and granting them forms of power. We've even seen Voidspren forming a Nahel Bond with humans during the OB Battle of Thaylen Field. This is a Nahel Bond, just like a Radiant bond, but it doesn't grant Singers that much power compared to a Radiant bond.

Yes, at all times. When I was referring to Nahel it meant radiant bond; it is more than anything out of habit, but I do understand that any union of a physical being and a cognitive one falls within that category. Now we must take into account that, regarding voidsprens there is something strange involved given the following WoB (at least as far as humans are concerned):

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)
Can anyone other than a Parshendi bond a Voidspren? Like, can a human bond a Voidspren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
That is theoretically possible but humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222/#e5637

On 1/25/2024 at 1:57 PM, bmcclure7 said:

I never thought to draw a connection between the passions and This particular fabril. But indeed it could be some kind of foreshadowing. I suspect that Each void Spren We'll correspond To one of these emotions.

With perhaps the everstorm or some other force Not yet seen serving as the 10th

Honestly, that part was the idea of a friend who, as he was doing a rereading, had it fresh and showed it to me as soon as I told him my scheme.

alder24 · January 27

10 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Yes, at all times. When I was referring to Nahel it meant radiant bond; it is more than anything out of habit

I think that because Radiants were formalized by Ishar, no other spren than a True Spren of 10 kinds can form a Radiant Bond. A corrupted True Spren is the closest we have to this and that's only because they were a True Spren thus they are bound into Radiant Bond. But others can still form a Nahel Bond, strong enough to grant Surges (even different pairs of Surges), just like True Spren were doing before Radiant Orders were established. Even Lesser Spren can theoretically bond with humans.

Spoiler

heridfel

There are different kinds of spren that bond with people and it appears they’re based on a concept. Is it possible to have a concept which would make a Nahel bond that gives two Surges that don’t align to one of the Radiant orders?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, uh...this is a theoretical possibility that has not happened yet.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

Spoiler

Fantasy Faction

Could any type of spren bond with a person (even if the results wouldn't be a Knight Radiant)? Or only the ones associated with a branch of the Knights?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh, that's an excellent question. This is something theoretically possible for a lesser spren to achieve.

Fantasy Faction interview (March 24, 2014)

10 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Now we must take into account that, regarding voidsprens there is something strange involved given the following WoB (at least as far as humans are concerned):

Humans don't have a gemheart, that's why, and they are a weak vessel for emotions (per Odium's words, OB ch 57). It took decades of preparations and the presence of one of the Unmade that rioted people's emotions to allow Voidspren to bond with humans. I think this example during the Battle of Thaylen Field, combined with the WoB about Voidbinding usually originating with Unmades, might be a form of Voidbinding, or be very close to it.

bmcclure7 · January 27

20 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Thanks for that clarification. While I was writing, I also remembered that point, but I didn't know how to include it.

Yes, at all times. When I was referring to Nahel it meant radiant bond; it is more than anything out of habit, but I do understand that any union of a physical being and a cognitive one falls within that category. Now we must take into account that, regarding voidsprens there is something strange involved given the following WoB (at least as far as humans are concerned):

Honestly, that part was the idea of a friend who, as he was doing a rereading, had it fresh and showed it to me as soon as I told him my scheme.

If you follow the connection all the way out that would make

Voidsmiths :love

voidwatchers: hate

voidruners : joy

Voidweavers: sadness

Voidshapers: anger

Dofurion · January 29

On 1/27/2024 at 6:04 PM, bmcclure7 said:

If you follow the connection all the way out that would make

Voidsmiths :love

voidwatchers: hate

voidruners : joy

Voidweavers: sadness

Voidshapers: anger

I don't particularly relate it to orders, but rather to powers. That is to say:

void-"Adhesion" [Sapphire-Joy]
void-Gravitation [Smokestone-Trust]
void-Division [Ruby-Fear]
void-Abrasion [Diamond-Surprise]
void-Progression [Emerald-Hate]
void-Illumination [Garnet-Sadness]
void-Transformation [Zircon-Disgust]
void-Transport [Amethyst-Anger]
void-Cohesion [Topaz-Anticipation]
void-Tension [Heliodor-Love]

bmcclure7 · January 30

21 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I don't particularly relate it to orders, but rather to powers. That is to say:

void-"Adhesion" [Sapphire-Joy]

void-Gravitation [Smokestone-Trust]

void-Division [Ruby-Fear]

void-Abrasion [Diamond-Surprise]

void-Progression [Emerald-Hate]

void-Illumination [Garnet-Sadness]

void-Transformation [Zircon-Disgust]

void-Transport [Amethyst-Anger]

void-Cohesion [Topaz-Anticipation]

void-Tension [Heliodor-Love]

As was mainly think of the orders because its shaped just like the charts

Benkinsky · June 13

We've seen spren for some of the emotions in that chart. Fearspren, Angerspren, Anticipationspren... I assume the others exist too.

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I wanted to find one to add onto. I'm rereading SA atm, and in OB when Leshwi decides to keep Moash around after he killed her, she asks something like "what is your passion?", to which he quickly sais "Vengeance". Something like that, I don't recall her exact phrasing. I thought it was interesting that it happened so shortly after Moash defended the Parshmen crew pulling the cart and being whipped. He acted similarly to Kaladin in Bridge Four for a moment, similar to where Kaladin started becoming a Radiant - but for Moash, the anger at the mistreatment was stronger than the desire to protect those mistreated. Something something parallels. And then that question about "what passion?", which we know is both a very Odium thing AND a cultural/religious thing in some human cultures on Roshar.

Idk about the theory that there will be a set of words/oaths for Voidbindings, I mean, Oaths are honors deal, but i could imagine that "finding your passion" is an important thing in human cultures since they brought that with them from Ashyn, where Odium was still Humankind's god.

We know that Voidbinding is "a cousin to the Old Magic", and we know from the Old Magic that it works by giving you thing a and taking/making thing b happen in return. A curse and a boon. I could imagine that the "cousin" thing comes from the fact that Voidbinding works similarly. The glimpses we have into what voidbinding could be have to do with the Unmade, and a few other people. I feel like they often involve some kind of trade like that

Moash has his pain and emotions taken away.

Renarin has no control over his visions.

Balat seems to be in pain or something when he isn't hurting something smaller. It calms him.

Nergaoul/the Thrill grants you serenity and clarity, but you basically lose yourself to the battle.

Ashertmarn is similar.

I'm wondering whether the "void" is Voidbinding isn't a term for a thing you manipulate, like "surge" is, but something internal. A Voidbinder has a void, and feeds it. or draws from it. Maybe that void differs depending on the person, and that's those passions you seek.

Rather than losing your powers because you break your oaths, you would lose them if you lose your passion. If Moash lost his hatred for the lighteyes, or Renarin lost his fear of not fitting in OR being what people expect of him (though Renarin is a special case here too), stuff like that.

Treamayne · June 13

1 hour ago, Benkinsky said:

i could imagine that "finding your passion" is an important thing in human cultures since they brought that with them from Ashyn, where Odium was still Humankind's god.

Can you source this? It seems more like Fanon or personal theory. I can find no evidence that the Passions originated on Ashyn and WoB says they are not directly related to Odium (and barely related tangentially). Also, the Passions were (at least partially) inspired by emotion Spren (which did not exist on Ashyn):

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

About the Passions. Are they related to Odium, or is there something bigger cosmere-wide?

Brandon Sanderson

They are related to traditions from the past that were Odium-influenced. I wouldn't saa-- So, they are technically related to Odium in that sort of method. More in a roundabout way, though.
Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

Quote

Botanica

We know that the Passions are a religion or a set of superstitions from Thaylenah. But what are the "Passions" exactly? Are they a group of Gods who represent various kinds of "Passion" worshipped by the Thaylen people? If not, are those "Passions" simply a set of ideals believed by the Thaylen people? Are there any connections between Thaylen Passions and Alethi Thrill?

Brandon Sanderson

The Passions could be called a religion, but there are those among the Thaylens (and to a lesser extent, other peoples) who would argue that it's more a philosophy. Or a companion religion. Much like Shinto and/or Confucianism co-exist in some places with Buddhism.

However, there is not formalized theology, despite various thinkers and gurus expressing their thoughts on the matter. The central idea is that Passion equates to Action, and the cosmic belief that wanting something draws it to you. This idea is reinforced by the spren, obviously.

Phantine

Ah, so basically some people treat it as a fundamental way of life, and some people just treat it as The Secret?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can see it as a Rosharan version of the Law of Attraction, though some people have taken it further into a more religious fundamental.
Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 12, 2016)

ScavellTane · June 13

I'm of a mind that the term Voidbinding is what the Ancient Singers first termed the Human-Spren Bond before Ishar and Honor usurped the mechanism for the Radiants as Surgebinding.

bmcclure7 · June 13

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Can you source this? It seems more like Fanon or personal theory. I can find no evidence that the Passions originated on Ashyn and WoB says they are not directly related to Odium (and barely related tangentially). Also, the Passions were (at least partially) inspired by emotion Spren (which did not exist on Ashyn):

Reveal hidden contents

Sa5 spoilers

Spoiler

Actually, in the previews chapters hoid tells, kal that the passions are a remnant of odium’s religion. So there is a connection. it also mentions the fact that according to the passions, if your passions are powerful enough you gain the ability to see into the cognitive realm, which sounds an awfully like the beginning of a spren bond So it’s at least highly possible that the religion is connected to void spren and void binding

Edited June 13 by bmcclure7

Treamayne · June 13

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

SA5 Spoilers

Spoiler

Actually, if you read the preview chapters, hoid specifically, says that the passions are remnants of the Odium religion. So there is a connection

Please spoiler tag your Preview material

bmcclure7 · June 13

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Please spoiler tag your Preview material

How do I do that exactly?

got your message thanks.

@dofurion been thinking about possible void orders based on fabril

void version of edge dancers: combinations of the emotions, hate and surprise, maybe a rage order?

light Weaver Hate and sadness. Envy? What are your thoughts? Do you have any ideas for the other orders?

Edited June 13 by bmcclure7

Benkinsky · June 14

22 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I can find no evidence that the Passions originated on Ashyn and WoB says they are not directly related to Odium (and barely related tangentially).

Ah, I didn't meant to imply there was definitive evidence. I meant to say something similar to the first WoB you quoted. My line of thinkin was

All humans on Roshar (except for the Iri) are descendants of the ones from the Ashyn exodus.
some humans follow something called the Passions. Which is also what Odium calls hismelf an a word the Fused use a lot.
Odium used to be the god of humanity on Ashyn.
Bet there's a connection. Might be the key

Something like that

Treamayne · June 14

46 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Odium used to be the god of humanity on Ashyn.

But this is also not definitive. We know that Odium manipulated Ishar into destroying Ashyn, and we know that the Singers believe the Humans worshipped Odium - but only because Odium showed up near Roshar shortly after they did. I have not read (and will not read) any Preview material, but from Canon sources so far, there is no evidence that Ashynites actually worshipped Odium (and WoB implies we will not get that answer until we get Herald flashbacks in the back-half of SA).

Spoiler

<edited for length and relevance>

Edited June 14 by Treamayne
SPAG

bmcclure7 · June 14

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But this is also not definitive. We know that Odium manipulated Ishar into destroying Ashyn, and we know that the Singers believe the Humans worshipped Odium - but only because Odium showed up near Roshar shortly after they did. I have not read (and will not read) any Preview material, but from Canon sources so far, there is no evidence that Ashynites actually worshipped Odium (and WoB implies we will not get that answer until we get Herald flashbacks in the back-half of SA).

Reveal hidden contents

<edited for length and relevance>

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the ancient chronologies are wrong and you won't get the actual answers until the Heralds themselves explain it in their flashback sequences in the back five.

Questioner

You've said that the Heralds came over from Ashyn.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay. How old were they then?

Brandon Sanderson

Younger than they were when they became Heralds.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

What is implied by the books is that the Passions were the Singer religion worshipping Odium during the desolations (after their "mutual betrayal" with the Spren) and that humans fighting for Odium also worshipped the Passions back in the Shadowdays before Aharietiam.

Well, we have plenty of evidence that the passions are connected to odium I don’t know why you think that they are connected to the singers? None of the singers follow the passions. And none of them are void binders so it wouldn’t make sense for them to. The only people that we see follow, the passions are humans. So it makes sense that it is a human origin. Especially since we know that they were humans that followed odium both before and after the first desolation.

Treamayne · June 14

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

The only people that we see follow, the passions are humans.

Uh. . . too many references to quote them all, but here are a few from Oathbringer:

Spoiler

Ch 54:
- “Little human,” the [Regal] said with a foreign accent, “you are passionate and interesting.”
- “My companions spared you,” [Leshwi] said to him. . . “Why would I destroy that which had such passion?
I-12:
- Thaylen Singers follow the Passions
- She was instructed to speak of “Passion” and emotion more often than she had in Alethkar. . . “The day now belongs to your Passion,” she continued to Command.
Ch 115:
- “These have the wrong Passion,” [the Fused] said. “The ones who attacked Kholinar did so gladly.”
Ch 120:
- He tossed the pouch aside. “You failed to obey the Word of Passion. . . [Venli] shouted, “I choose!” He nodded, evidently impressed by her Passion,
Ch 121:
- [Leswi] hummed to a rhythm he associated with being pleased. “Your passion does you credit.”
Ch 122:
- “Khen, you were freed from your slavery,” Moash said. “Your assault on the palace earned you the Passion of Mercy.”

Note: This conjecture is made without Preview Material, and no desire for spoilers in response

Most (if not all) Fused follow the Passions. Many modern Singers do as well (including Khen, who was an Alethi Parshman, not a Thaylen Parshman). It's implied that almost all Singers followed the Passions in the shadowdays (except the Lost Legion, who became the Listeners).

I would not be surprised if the Passions were originally Odium's twist on the Singer's hearing of emotion rhythms when he first started trying to get Humans and Singers to War before/during the early Desolations.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Especially since we know that they were humans that followed odium both before and after the first desolation.

Again, can you support this with Canon references? AFAIK this is theory, not Canon.

+Oltux72 · June 15

On 6/13/2024 at 4:32 PM, ScavellTane said:

I'm of a mind that the term Voidbinding is what the Ancient Singers first termed the Human-Spren Bond before Ishar and Honor usurped the mechanism for the Radiants as Surgebinding.

What then is Renarin doing?

ScavellTane · June 15

Its more a difference/change in naming conventions over the millenniums rather than a difference in magical mechanisms.

I believe Renarin is Voidbinding in terms of definition, but Surgebinding in terms of mechanism.

Although with Renarin the infusion of a third "flavor(?)/layer(?)" of investiture into the Radiant bond seems to add Fortune to the underlying Surge combinations.

Spoiler

As Shallans bond with her 1 and a half spren seems to also imply.

Basically everything "magical" on Roshar is Surgebinding but if it involves Odium in anyway then its Voidbinding.

Edited June 15 by ScavellTane

Paliah · June 16

I wonder if Navani's glyphwards have a connection to the passions and voidbinding. Readers have noticed that her prayers seem to be answered when she burns a glyphward in a moment of intense emotion. This happens when she prays for justice in the Way of Kings.

SA5 spoilers:

Spoiler

And something similar occurs when she prays for Gavilar's death in the prologue to book 5.

bmcclure7 · June 17

On 6/14/2024 at 5:15 PM, Treamayne said:

Uh. . . too many references to quote them all, but here are a few from Oathbringer:

Reveal hidden contents

Ch 54:

“Little human,” the [Regal] said with a foreign accent, “you are passionate and interesting.”

“My companions spared you,” [Leshwi] said to him. . . “Why would I destroy that which had such passion?

I-12:

Thaylen Singers follow the Passions

She was instructed to speak of “Passion” and emotion more often than she had in Alethkar. . . “The day now belongs to your Passion,” she continued to Command.

Ch 115:

“These have the wrong Passion,” [the Fused] said. “The ones who attacked Kholinar did so gladly.”

Ch 120:

He tossed the pouch aside. “You failed to obey the Word of Passion. . . [Venli] shouted, “I choose!” He nodded, evidently impressed by her Passion,

Ch 121:

[Leswi] hummed to a rhythm he associated with being pleased. “Your passion does you credit.”

Ch 122:

“Khen, you were freed from your slavery,” Moash said. “Your assault on the palace earned you the Passion of Mercy.”

Note: This conjecture is made without Preview Material, and no desire for spoilers in response

Most (if not all) Fused follow the Passions. Many modern Singers do as well (including Khen, who was an Alethi Parshman, not a Thaylen Parshman). It's implied that almost all Singers followed the Passions in the shadowdays (except the Lost Legion, who became the Listeners).

I would not be surprised if the Passions were originally Odium's twist on the Singer's hearing of emotion rhythms when he first started trying to get Humans and Singers to War before/during the early Desolations.

Again, can you support this with Canon references? AFAIK this is theory, not Canon.

passion, but not Passions, just talking about having passion doesn’t make you a believer or follower of the Passions. That’s like assuming that just because someone uses the word faith a lot they must therefore be a Christian.

Edited June 17 by bmcclure7

Treamayne · June 17

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

passion, but not Passions, just talking about having passion doesn’t make you a believer or follower of the Passions. That’s like assuming that just because someone uses the word faith a lot they must therefore be a Christian.

I can understand that interpretation, and I agree to disagree. However, I think that when it is capital-P Passion - it is referencing the same thing as the Thaylen Passions (or at least a common root - otherwise that is far too much of a coincidence than Sanderson normally allows).

Edited June 18 by Treamayne
Clarity/SPAG

AlastorBM · July 5

It's fascinating, I always thought of voidbinding as something similar to the effects of nergaul, The Thrill. Let's say you give it your other emotions and in return it gives you this battle trance that makes you very dangerous and strong. Or on the other hand you give it your thirst for battle and in return it intensifies it a lot.

I remember something that voidbinding can come from the unmade but not always, I have to look for the correct WoB.

I have to read the whole thread, it's very good

bmcclure7 · July 6

14 hours ago, AlastorBM said:

It's fascinating, I always thought of voidbinding as something similar to the effects of nergaul, The Thrill. Let's say you give it your other emotions and in return it gives you this battle trance that makes you very dangerous and strong. Or on the other hand you give it your thirst for battle and in return it intensifies it a lot.

I remember something that voidbinding can come from the unmade but not always, I have to look for the correct WoB.

I have to read the whole thread, it's very good

I thought of the thrill as consuming your fear, guilt, and other negative emotions you may experience while fighting. Exchange for amplifying the positive emotions of fighting, your sense of power, your desire to compete, to prove yourself stronger, etc.

Exhaustive analysis of the information available regarding Voidbinding and its possible mechanical behavior

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