AlastorBM He Posted July 6 Report Share Posted July 6 2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: I thought of the thrill as consuming your fear, guilt, and other negative emotions you may experience while fighting. Exchange for amplifying the positive emotions of fighting, your sense of power, your desire to compete, to prove yourself stronger, etc. Good point! I did a little more research on coppermind to make sure, I don't have the details 100% fresh. I am referring more to the effect of giving one emotion for another or giving an emotion for a capacity/ability, I thought about it with this quote in mind, and taking into account the passions. Quote dvoraen "To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade? Brandon Sanderson Not always. But usually. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 11 hours ago, AlastorBM said: Good point! I did a little more research on coppermind to make sure, I don't have the details 100% fresh. I am referring more to the effect of giving one emotion for another or giving an emotion for a capacity/ability, I thought about it with this quote in mind, and taking into account the passions. It does seem that the unmade or connected to taking away emotion or at least negative emotion. We see this more than just thrill, but also with the heart of the revel. And I believe there even a death rattle that refers to it. Given that the unmade are associated with void binding it does suggest that there could be a connection 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused Posted July 7 Report Share Posted July 7 Hi, all! It’s been a long time. The OP raises issues near and dear to my heart – how Voidbinding works as a magic system. The OP makes some excellent points. I’d like to try to put them into my own context. My 2019 magic theory posits each Shard accesses Investiture through a unique “primal force” or “fundamental law.” This unique means of accessing Investiture distinguishes Shards from one another and reflects the Connection made by each Vessel to its Shard at the Shattering. We know, for example, that Honor grants access to Investiture through bonds and Ruin through acts of entropy. I believe Odium is a cosmere repulsive force that grants access to Investiture by breaking Connections. I discuss this in my magic theory and in the post, “Is Odium Repulsive?”: On 9/18/2019 at 9:55 PM, Confused said: My theory defines magic systems by how magic users access their Investiture. Odium “takes your pain” by breaking your Connection to who or what causes the pain. (“I’m not to blame...It wasn’t my fault.”) Odium’s assault on Dalinar at Thaylen Field left Dalinar “Alone. So alone.” The Broken One’s Investiture fills the broken Connections. The loss of these Connections leaves you numb, adrift in an emotional void. Breaking Connections is the perfect metaphor for the Shard of Hate. People turn to hate when they lose their Connections to other people and things. Odium-affected people turn inward, feel alone, and blame others for their misfortunes. At that point, someone could demagogue them up a bit, Connect with them strongly enough they’ll follow, and create some pretext to inflame them to hateful violence. With that context, let’s look at again at the OP: On 1/19/2024 at 10:24 PM, Dofurion said: My proposal is that in this case to access voidbinding it is through the passions.... Well, if a human felt passionate enough about something to attract a True Voidspren (remembering that they do have reason in the physical realm), it would offer him access to voidbinding in exchange for consuming his "passion." We agree that intense passion attracts Voidspren. Intense emotion attracts Roshar’s “natural” (pre-Shattering) spren as well. I also agree that Voidspren “consume” passion, but ONLY IF by “passion” you mean the Connection that forms between a person and what they feel passion for. IMO, passion is simply a form of Connection imprinted on the Spiritual aspect of people and/or objects. Viewed this way, Voidspren operate on similar principles to Radiantspren. Radiantspren fill “cracks” in their Radiant’s Spiritual aspect, strengthening their bond and increasing Radiant power levels. Voidspren (I theorize) callous over, mask, or eat away at the passion-inducing Connection. A deeply felt “Passion” will have the strongest Connection and the greatest resistance to breaking. The effort will require more Voidspren Investiture, all of which attaches itself to the Voidbinder’s Spiritual aspect. As the breaking continues, more Voidspren Investiture invades the Voidbinder, and the Voidbinder’s power levels increase. Voidspren Investiture brings the Voidbinder a Connection to Odium through which Voidlight continually flows. I believe the Fused perform their magic by breaking Connections – the Surges. A better description for Voidbinding might be “Surge-breaking.” The Fused break their gravity Connection to fly, their abrasion Connection to glide, and their progression Connection to speed carapace growth. The Fused dis-Connect and re-Connect each Surge with the same skill and precision as Kaladin adjusts his lashings. All Rosharans IMO perceive the cosmere’s “powers of creation” as Surges. Gravity, abrasion, progression, and other Surges are Connections in the collective Rosharan consciousness. IMO, there are no “Void Surges” or “Radiant Surges,” only Surges. The two magic systems rely on a different means of accessing Investiture to manipulate Surges. FWIW, I think Shard Splinters are Roshar’s Focus. Radiantspren, Voidspren, pre-Shattering “natural” spren, the Unmade, and Honorblades all shape and channel their Shard’s Investiture to the person or object that uses or is affected by these entities. On 1/19/2024 at 10:24 PM, Dofurion said: The control of the "voidsurge's" (for lack of a better name) would be in the hands of the Sprens and not the humans. Being something like the reverse case of the Aviars in First of the Sun, this operation would solve several situations present in the books: That Moash, despite hypothetically having a connection of this type with Odium, does not present apparent benefits [All RoW]. That Renarin's visions occur against his will (in this case, Glys would be driving them), and only after having had one can he reproduce them intentionally [RoW chapter 54]. IMO, as Focuses, all Radiantspren and Voidspren control their magic user’s access to Investiture and what their magic user can do with that power. Moash hasn’t been granted powers yet (I wouldn’t trust Moash with power either), but Odium does deliver what Moash most wants – nihilistic numbness. I’ve long argued Renarin is as much a Surgebinder as Kaladin. Glys may be a Voidspren, but Renarin accesses both Honor and Odium through the Radiant bond fueled by Stormlight. Some of Renarin’s powers do come from Odium, but since Renarin accesses those powers through the Radiant bond, IMO he is a Surgebinder. On 1/19/2024 at 10:24 PM, Dofurion said: Another difference with Surgebinding, is that the fuel is Stormlight, in voidbinding they would be the deeper emotions (also known as Passions), and each of the skills would depend on consuming a specific emotion. And Voidlight would simply be a method of increasing those emotions enough to not be consumed. Again, I think Passion, emotion, feelings are all Connections. Brandon says Connections are not Investiture. There’s nothing to “consume” as fuel. IMO, “fuel” is magical energy. Voidbinding’s magical energy is Voidlight, just as Stormlight fuels Surgebinding. Voidlight’s energy constantly flows into the Voidbinder through their Connection to Odium. Odium’s Connection widens as other Connections break. That allows more Voidlight to flow, with more powerful magical effects. But this is just my view. As with all things cosmere, there are as many paradigms as posters. Nice job, Dofurion! Best to you all in this hottest summer! C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted July 8 Report Share Posted July 8 (edited) On 7/7/2024 at 2:44 PM, Confused said: Hi, all! It’s been a long time. The OP raises issues near and dear to my heart – how Voidbinding works as a magic system. The OP makes some excellent points. I’d like to try to put them into my own context. My 2019 magic theory posits each Shard accesses Investiture through a unique “primal force” or “fundamental law.” This unique means of accessing Investiture distinguishes Shards from one another and reflects the Connection made by each Vessel to its Shard at the Shattering. We know, for example, that Honor grants access to Investiture through bonds and Ruin through acts of entropy. I believe Odium is a cosmere repulsive force that grants access to Investiture by breaking Connections. I discuss this in my magic theory and in the post, “Is Odium Repulsive?”: Breaking Connections is the perfect metaphor for the Shard of Hate. People turn to hate when they lose their Connections to other people and things. Odium-affected people turn inward, feel alone, and blame others for their misfortunes. At that point, someone could demagogue them up a bit, Connect with them strongly enough they’ll follow, and create some pretext to inflame them to hateful violence. With that context, let’s look at again at the OP: We agree that intense passion attracts Voidspren. Intense emotion attracts Roshar’s “natural” (pre-Shattering) spren as well. I also agree that Voidspren “consume” passion, but ONLY IF by “passion” you mean the Connection that forms between a person and what they feel passion for. IMO, passion is simply a form of Connection imprinted on the Spiritual aspect of people and/or objects. Viewed this way, Voidspren operate on similar principles to Radiantspren. Radiantspren fill “cracks” in their Radiant’s Spiritual aspect, strengthening their bond and increasing Radiant power levels. Voidspren (I theorize) callous over, mask, or eat away at the passion-inducing Connection. A deeply felt “Passion” will have the strongest Connection and the greatest resistance to breaking. The effort will require more Voidspren Investiture, all of which attaches itself to the Voidbinder’s Spiritual aspect. As the breaking continues, more Voidspren Investiture invades the Voidbinder, and the Voidbinder’s power levels increase. Voidspren Investiture brings the Voidbinder a Connection to Odium through which Voidlight continually flows. I believe the Fused perform their magic by breaking Connections – the Surges. A better description for Voidbinding might be “Surge-breaking.” The Fused break their gravity Connection to fly, their abrasion Connection to glide, and their progression Connection to speed carapace growth. The Fused dis-Connect and re-Connect each Surge with the same skill and precision as Kaladin adjusts his lashings. All Rosharans IMO perceive the cosmere’s “powers of creation” as Surges. Gravity, abrasion, progression, and other Surges are Connections in the collective Rosharan consciousness. IMO, there are no “Void Surges” or “Radiant Surges,” only Surges. The two magic systems rely on a different means of accessing Investiture to manipulate Surges. FWIW, I think Shard Splinters are Roshar’s Focus. Radiantspren, Voidspren, pre-Shattering “natural” spren, the Unmade, and Honorblades all shape and channel their Shard’s Investiture to the person or object that uses or is affected by these entities. IMO, as Focuses, all Radiantspren and Voidspren control their magic user’s access to Investiture and what their magic user can do with that power. Moash hasn’t been granted powers yet (I wouldn’t trust Moash with power either), but Odium does deliver what Moash most wants – nihilistic numbness. I’ve long argued Renarin is as much a Surgebinder as Kaladin. Glys may be a Voidspren, but Renarin accesses both Honor and Odium through the Radiant bond fueled by Stormlight. Some of Renarin’s powers do come from Odium, but since Renarin accesses those powers through the Radiant bond, IMO he is a Surgebinder. Again, I think Passion, emotion, feelings are all Connections. Brandon says Connections are not Investiture. There’s nothing to “consume” as fuel. IMO, “fuel” is magical energy. Voidbinding’s magical energy is Voidlight, just as Stormlight fuels Surgebinding. Voidlight’s energy constantly flows into the Voidbinder through their Connection to Odium. Odium’s Connection widens as other Connections break. That allows more Voidlight to flow, with more powerful magical effects. But this is just my view. As with all things cosmere, there are as many paradigms as posters. Nice job, Dofurion! Best to you all in this hottest summer! C. Very interesting I would like to bring up some few points. 1. It’s not necessarily that the powers themselves are feuded by passion, but rather the spren are fueled by passion and intern grant investiture to those who feed them. We know spren feed off of human thoughts of them. So if voidspren Represents passions, then people feeling passion could theoretically feed them. 2. I’m not convinced that emotions equals passions exactly mainly because of what is discussed in the preview chapters. Spoiler When the religion of the passions (it’s actually more of a superstition) in the preview chapters the passions are described as not so much emotion as desires. So I’m not sure a void spren would necessarily be attracted to the same thing as an emotional spree. it could easily be that. For example a glory spren could be attracted to the emotion or thoughts of glory, whereas avoid could be attracted to desire for glory. Anger spread could be attracted to the emotion of anger or as a void sprain could be attracted to the desires for vengeance. 3. This idea of surges breaking connection is interesting but I’m not not sure how well it holds up. I don’t see how Renren illumination breaks any kind of connection. Yet what he’s doing is clearly using a void binding power as a surge. 4. The fused are not void binders. They have pacifically said to be surge binders. And they show no talent to see the future, which is a key component of void binding. (interesting enough I do believe that Regals are void binding since they use void Spren, and we know that at least one form can see the future) Edited July 8 by bmcclure7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused Posted July 8 Report Share Posted July 8 Thanks for the response, @bmcclure7! Apologies in advance for my long-windedness as I cycle through your comments. 16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: 1. It’s not necessarily that the powers themselves are feuded by passion, but rather the sprint or fueled by passion and intern grant investiture to those who feed them. We know spren feed off of human thoughts of them. So if voidspren Represents passions, then people feeling passion could theoretically feed them. Neither the “powers” nor the spren is “fueled by passion.” Spren are living ideas. All spren, including pre-Shattering “natural” spren, ARE attracted to people with the right temperament or who feel the right emotion. That temperament or emotion must be compatible with the idea the spren personifies. But spren do NOT “feed off of human thoughts.” Radiants, for example, become MORE like their spren as they progress through their oaths, not less. That seems contrary to the idea of “feeding” spren, which should diminish the compatible “human thoughts” the spren purportedly feeds on. Likewise, angerspren, fearspren and other “natural” spren appear when people feel the corresponding emotion; but these spren don’t take away any part of that emotion. Instead, the spren disappear when the person stops feeling that emotion, since there’s nothing to attract spren at that point. Voidspren do take away passion, but as my post states, for different mechanical reasons than what the OP and you posit. Passion and other emotions are Connections not made from Investiture. There is simply nothing there to feed on, no source of energy to make spren do anything. 16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: 2. I’m not convinced that emotions equals passions exactly mainly because of what is discussed in the preview chapters. It doesn’t matter whether “emotions equals passions exactly” or whether they are “desires” or some other motivation or attachment. Emotions, passions, and desires are ALL Connections. People feel these things for someone or something else. Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections and “raw Investiture.” Connections resemble our universe’s “quantum connections” and are not themselves Investiture. Spiritual aspects thus differ only as to their Connections. Each change in Connection changes that Spiritual aspect. IMO, Connections alone carry the information that defines every cosmere person and object. They are the cosmere’s information carriers. 16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: 3. This idea of surges breaking connection is interesting but I’m not not sure how well it holds up. I don’t see how Renren illumination breaks any kind of connection. Yet what he’s doing is clearly using a void binding power as a surge. Preliminarily, I think it's irrelevant that “surges break connection.” They can and do. My point, rather, is that breaking Connections is how Odium magic users access Odium’s Investiture. This is no different than Honor magic users accessing Honor’s Investiture through bonds, and Ruin magic users accessing Ruin’s Investiture through acts of entropy. At least three WoBs establish the “means of access to Investiture” theory of Shard uniqueness: “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” “Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing.” I agree that Renarin does not break a Connection to illuminate. That’s because, IMO, Renarin is a Surgebinder in all ways. His Radiant bond with Glys gives him full access to Honor’s Investiture – Stormlight – to fuel his magic. He does not need to break a Connection to access Odium’s Investiture because he only uses Honor’s Investiture. This is an important point: Radiantspren are NOT only from Honor. Most Radiantspren are combinations of Honor and Cultivation. Yet, except for Lift who uses Lifelight, all Radiants fuel their magic with Stormlight even when the magical effects (like progression) flow in part from Cultivation. It is the same with Glys, who combines Honor and Odium. That enables Renarin to use Stormlight to achieve a magical effect that flows from Odium. Again, “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” 16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: 4. The fused are not void binders. They have pacifically said to be surge binders. And they show no talent to see the future, which is a key component of void binding. (interesting enough I do believe that Regals are void binding since they use void Spren, and we know that at least one form can see the future) I have not checked any new WoBs or other cosmere commentary for a while. Is there now something that says the Fused are “said to be surge binders”? I know many believe the Fused have “hacked” Surgebinding for their powers. I don’t accept that. Surgebinders and Voidbinders both manipulate the Surges to achieve their magical effects. IMO, they do so in different ways based on the source of their Investiture and how they access it. The Fused do not use Stormlight or the Radiant bond to achieve their magic and, hence, are not Surgebinders (hacked or otherwise). But I’m happy to revise my view if you can cite to me something that says Fused are Surgebinders. Again, thanks for the response! Regards! C. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted July 8 Report Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Confused said: Thanks for the response, @bmcclure7! Apologies in advance for my long-windedness as I cycle through your comments. Neither the “powers” nor the spren is “fueled by passion.” Spren are living ideas. All spren, including pre-Shattering “natural” spren, ARE attracted to people with the right temperament or who feel the right emotion. That temperament or emotion must be compatible with the idea the spren personifies. But spren do NOT “feed off of human thoughts.” Radiants, for example, become MORE like their spren as they progress through their oaths, not less. That seems contrary to the idea of “feeding” spren, which should diminish the compatible “human thoughts” the spren purportedly feeds on. Likewise, angerspren, fearspren and other “natural” spren appear when people feel the corresponding emotion; but these spren don’t take away any part of that emotion. Instead, the spren disappear when the person stops feeling that emotion, since there’s nothing to attract spren at that point. Voidspren do take away passion, but as my post states, for different mechanical reasons than what the OP and you posit. Passion and other emotions are Connections not made from Investiture. There is simply nothing there to feed on, no source of energy to make spren do anything. It doesn’t matter whether “emotions equals passions exactly” or whether they are “desires” or some other motivation or attachment. Emotions, passions, and desires are ALL Connections. People feel these things for someone or something else. Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections and “raw Investiture.” Connections resemble our universe’s “quantum connections” and are not themselves Investiture. Spiritual aspects thus differ only as to their Connections. Each change in Connection changes that Spiritual aspect. IMO, Connections alone carry the information that defines every cosmere person and object. They are the cosmere’s information carriers. Preliminarily, I think it's irrelevant that “surges break connection.” They can and do. My point, rather, is that breaking Connections is how Odium magic users access Odium’s Investiture. This is no different than Honor magic users accessing Honor’s Investiture through bonds, and Ruin magic users accessing Ruin’s Investiture through acts of entropy. At least three WoBs establish the “means of access to Investiture” theory of Shard uniqueness: “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” “Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing.” I agree that Renarin does not break a Connection to illuminate. That’s because, IMO, Renarin is a Surgebinder in all ways. His Radiant bond with Glys gives him full access to Honor’s Investiture – Stormlight – to fuel his magic. He does not need to break a Connection to access Odium’s Investiture because he only uses Honor’s Investiture. This is an important point: Radiantspren are NOT only from Honor. Most Radiantspren are combinations of Honor and Cultivation. Yet, except for Lift who uses Lifelight, all Radiants fuel their magic with Stormlight even when the magical effects (like progression) flow in part from Cultivation. It is the same with Glys, who combines Honor and Odium. That enables Renarin to use Stormlight to achieve a magical effect that flows from Odium. Again, “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” I have not checked any new WoBs or other cosmere commentary for a while. Is there now something that says the Fused are “said to be surge binders”? I know many believe the Fused have “hacked” Surgebinding for their powers. I don’t accept that. Surgebinders and Voidbinders both manipulate the Surges to achieve their magical effects. IMO, they do so in different ways based on the source of their Investiture and how they access it. The Fused do not use Stormlight or the Radiant bond to achieve their magic and, hence, are not Surgebinders (hacked or otherwise). But I’m happy to revise my view if you can cite to me something that says Fused are Surgebinders. Again, thanks for the response! Regards! C. A. Fused are surge binders. 1.“I don’t know who that is,” Navani said. She is bad. Terrible. Few Fused are as … frightening to me as she is. She’s trying to change me. So far, she changed only the portion of me that suppresses Surgebinding, reversing it so it affects Radiants instead of Fused. But she intends to go further. Much further. 2.These ones—called the makay-im, or “Those Ones of the Depths”—had access to one of her same Surges: the ability to turn stone into a liquid. 3. said—best not to lie until she had to. “Nine brands of Fused,” Raboniel said. “Nine Surges. You know of the Surges?” “The innate forces by which all life, all reality, are connected. Gravitation. Transportation. Transformation. But … I thought there were ten?” “That is human talk,” Raboniel 4.“They claim a tenth, of Honor alone. Adhesion is not a true Surge, but a lie that was presented to us as one. True Surges are of both Honor and Cultivation—Cultivation for life, Honor to make the Surge into natural law. Things must fall to the ground, so they created Surges to make it happen.” “And the Surge of these ones?” Venli asked, gesturing toward the Deepest Ones. “Cohesion,” Raboniel said. “The Surge of Axial Connection—the Surge that binds the smallest pieces of all objects to one another. The Surge that holds us together. The makay-im can meld their essence into the essences of 5.“The Radiants each have two Surges,” Venli said. “The Fused each have one. So are the Radiants more powerful?” “Powerful? Is it better to have more abilities, or to have one ability handled expertly? We of the Fused know our Surge with an intimacy a Radiant will never know. Humans. They 6. You will probably read the above passages quote the wob about the Rosharian considering any form of power to be a surge. However Raboniel isn’t your typical Rosharian and she makes it clear in the passages, I quoted that she has a very strict standard for what is and is not surge binding. And clearly she considers herself to be a surge binder. 7. I don’t have a copy of the other way of Kings so I can’t copy paste quotes. However, I’m sure you’re familiar with the passage where clearly states the heart void binding is seeing the future. None of the fused have the ability to see the future. So how could they be void binders. B. Spren Eating thoughts Again, I can’t copy this on my phone so you’ll have to look it up in your own book however syl when asked on the topic of what Spen clearly says that they eat the thoughts people have thinking about. Edited July 8 by bmcclure7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted July 9 Report Share Posted July 9 On 7/7/2024 at 9:44 PM, Confused said: I believe Odium is a cosmere repulsive force that grants access to Investiture by breaking Connections. I discuss this in my magic theory and in the post, “Is Odium Repulsive?”: I don't see this. Odium is about emotions, about Passion - it loves conflict. Odium needs Connection, he has his own Connections to all Fused, to Dalinar, to Moash etc. He can't act without proper Connection, as seen when he tries to torture Kaladin, he needs Moash's Connection to Kaladin to sent him visions (which wasn't broken at all). Every Fused is Connected to Odium and gets their power directly from him. Connections are always needed. RoW ch 15: Quote These enemies of yours though, I think they’re too strong for that. They’ve lasted thousands of years already, and seem Connected to Odium to feed directly on his power. RoW I-4: Quote “Could you show him anything?” I HAVEN’T THE CONNECTION TO HIM. Odium considered, humming softly to a rhythm. I SEE A WAY. THERE ARE HOLES IN HIS SOUL. SOMEONE COULD GET IN. SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HIM, SOMEONE CONNECTED TO HIM. SOMEONE WHO FEELS AS HE DOES. “I will do it.” PERHAPS. YOU COULD INFLUENCE HIM IN SMALL WAYS ONLY. PERHAPS EACH NIGHT, WHEN HE SLUMBERS … HE THINKS OF YOU STILL, AND THERE IS MORE. A CONNECTION BECAUSE OF YOUR PAST, YOUR SHARED DREAMS. ANY BOND SUCH AS THAT CAN BE MANIPULATED The loss of Connection doesn't leave you numb, it gives you extreme pain because a part of your soul is ripped out - only after that agony there is emptiness. This would be something that everyone affected would have felt, if emotions were Connections and Odium was breaking them. RoW ch 105: Quote What? Teft stood stunned as Moash pulled a strange dagger from his belt and slammed it down—right where Phendorana was kneeling. She looked up with surprise and took the knife straight in the forehead. Then she screamed. Teft leaped for her, howling, watching in horror as she shrank, writhing as Moash’s dagger pinned her to the floor. Her essence burned, flaring outward like an explosion. Something ripped inside Teft. Something deeper than his own heart. A part of his soul, his being, was torn away. He collapsed immediately, falling near the white spot in the sand that was all that remained of Phendorana. No. No … It hurt so much. Agony like a sudden terrible stillness. Nothingness. Emptiness. RoW ch 111: Quote Ishar touched his hand to his own chest, creating a line of light between him and Dalinar. “I will take this bond to the Stormfather. I will bear it myself. I sense … something odd in you. A Connection to Odium. He sees you as … as the one who will fight against him. This cannot be right. I will take that Connection as well.” Dalinar gasped, falling to his knees as something was torn from him—it felt as if his very soul was being ripped out. The Stormfather screamed: a terrifying, agonized sound, like lightning that warped and broke. OB ch 121: Quote Ash stopped in place as something ripped inside of her. Oh God. Oh, Adonalsium! What was that? What was that? Taln whimpered and collapsed, a puppet with cut strings. Ash stumbled, then sank to her knees. She wrapped her arms around herself, trembling. It wasn’t pain. It was something far, far worse. A loss, a hole inside of her, a piece of her soul being excised. Moash has given up his pain to Odium - yet his Connections to Kaladin are still intact, his emotions, pain and guilt returned two times during RoW. If Odium was breaking Connections/emotions, those Connections would not be able to be returned so rapidly. Breaking Connections is a painful and irreversible process. Once broken, they won't just return. All deadeyes also are the evidence of this. Every spren was hurt when BAM was imprisoned and this wound didn't heal. On 7/7/2024 at 9:44 PM, Confused said: We agree that intense passion attracts Voidspren. Intense emotion attracts Roshar’s “natural” (pre-Shattering) spren as well. I also agree that Voidspren “consume” passion, but ONLY IF by “passion” you mean the Connection that forms between a person and what they feel passion for. IMO, passion is simply a form of Connection imprinted on the Spiritual aspect of people and/or objects. Viewed this way, Voidspren operate on similar principles to Radiantspren. Radiantspren fill “cracks” in their Radiant’s Spiritual aspect, strengthening their bond and increasing Radiant power levels. Voidspren (I theorize) callous over, mask, or eat away at the passion-inducing Connection. A deeply felt “Passion” will have the strongest Connection and the greatest resistance to breaking. The effort will require more Voidspren Investiture, all of which attaches itself to the Voidbinder’s Spiritual aspect. As the breaking continues, more Voidspren Investiture invades the Voidbinder, and the Voidbinder’s power levels increase. Voidspren Investiture brings the Voidbinder a Connection to Odium through which Voidlight continually flows. But this doesn't happen. Emotions aren't consumed, they are enflamed. Voidlight is causing emotions to grow stronger, being passionate is making them stronger - Eshonai's emotions were stronger after she bonded with a Stormspren and she could hear Rhythms of Odium. However, unlike what Odium likes to claim, he's not all emotions, he's only negative emotions. Feelings like love, or care are absent from his power. This isn't because they are consumed, they are overshadowed by other emotions who are rioted to be stronger. I don't see any evidence that emotions are Connections, this seems far-fetched. RoW ch 83: Quote He claimed to be of all Passions, and yet where was the love she’d once felt? The love for her mother? Her sister? Her friends? For a while, she’d even forgotten her love for Demid, though it had helped to awaken her. Mistborn spoiler WoB: Spoiler MiToRo94 (paraphrased) This is a question about both The Stormlight Archive and the Mistborn series. Does The Thrill have anything to do with zinc, Rioters, or Allomancy in general? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) "They work on very similar principles." Their magic is based on similar ideas, and they do have a lot in common. A specific example would be that, "they both can affect different people to different extents and in slightly different ways. You can see that in how the Thrill affects Dalinar, and how burning zinc affects kandra differently than others on Scadrial. That is because kandra have pierced souls, so Allomancy affects them differently." Superstars Writing Seminar 2018 (Feb. 3, 2018) Spoiler Striker_EZ Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others? Brandon Sanderson This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) On 7/7/2024 at 9:44 PM, Confused said: I believe the Fused perform their magic by breaking Connections – the Surges. A better description for Voidbinding might be “Surge-breaking.” The Fused break their gravity Connection to fly, their abrasion Connection to glide, and their progression Connection to speed carapace growth. The Fused dis-Connect and re-Connect each Surge with the same skill and precision as Kaladin adjusts his lashings. Fused aren't Voidbinders, they are Surgebinders. Voidbinding was mostly not explored before. It usually comes from an Unmade. Spoiler Chaos You've recently said that Rosharans call everything Surgebinding. So my question is: does Khriss call what the Fused do "Surgebinding"? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Chaos Interesting. We still don't know what Voidbinding is, but we'll get there eventually, I'm sure. Brandon Sanderson You will. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) Spoiler TheFoxQR (paraphrased) Is there temporal symmetry in between the Surge-binding and void-binding charts, from the front and back covers of The Way of Kings? As in, Surgebinding is a re-emerging system of the past, vs Voidbinding being a newly emerging system that will fully exist in the future? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You can assume that Voidbinding has not been fully explored, but that parts of it have been looked into in the past. So I wouldn't say that temporal symmetry fully holds. General Reddit 2019 (Aug. 3, 2019) Spoiler dvoraen "To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade? Brandon Sanderson Not always. But usually. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) On 7/7/2024 at 9:44 PM, Confused said: All Rosharans IMO perceive the cosmere’s “powers of creation” as Surges. Gravity, abrasion, progression, and other Surges are Connections in the collective Rosharan consciousness. No, they are not. Yes, Surges are powers of creation, but they are not Connections. The access to those powers of creation is manifested by forming a bond, which is because of Honor's presence on Roshar. People don't perceive Surges as Connections, because most don't even know those exist. Spoiler Kimbobhi Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's? Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers. Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition. [...] YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Questioner It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere. Brandon Sanderson Depends on your definition of god. Questioner Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin Brandon Sanderson So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book. Questioner I was wondering how much- Brandon Sanderson But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place. [...] Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) On 7/7/2024 at 9:44 PM, Confused said: Moash hasn’t been granted powers yet (I wouldn’t trust Moash with power either), but Odium does deliver what Moash most wants – nihilistic numbness Moash is most likely influenced directly by one of the Unmades, he's not a Voidbinder. WoK ch 67 epigraphs: Quote Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-Gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! Sounds familiar? On 7/7/2024 at 9:44 PM, Confused said: I’ve long argued Renarin is as much a Surgebinder as Kaladin. Glys may be a Voidspren, but Renarin accesses both Honor and Odium through the Radiant bond fueled by Stormlight. Some of Renarin’s powers do come from Odium, but since Renarin accesses those powers through the Radiant bond, IMO he is a Surgebinder. Most likely Renarin is a Voidbinder, but we don't know for sure yet. However Glys is not a Voidspren, he's a corrupted/enlightened spren. Voidbinding is somewhat close to being able to power abilities other than Surgebinding with Stormlight. If Renarin is really a Voidbinder, we can see that no emotion of his was consumed to access his powers. He's emotionally as he should be. Spoiler Argent Voidbinding, and what Renarin does, we are still very confused about how much-- Brandon Sanderson I am happy that you are very confused about that, because I haven't explained it very much. Argent Ok. Brandon Sanderson And Renarin didn't figure it out very much. Argent And he hasn't figured out it much, yeah. And we're not even sure whether he's a Voidbinder. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent He's probably a Voidbinder, right. Then I'm not going to ask you that, because you're going to say RAFO. Brandon Sanderson Yup. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Spoiler Argent Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017) 16 hours ago, Confused said: Connections resemble our universe’s “quantum connections” and are not themselves Investiture. Just to nitpick the WoB, if Connections are more like a force, then they are made of something, because fundamental forces in our universe are carried by particles like photons or gluons - and those are matter and energy. So by this comparison, Connections are still investiture, just in a different form. But that's just nitpicking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.png.e7e0ed638a7b06e576ebeaddf77e75e8.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.