Are we missing more red eyes in Roshar?

[Dofurion]

I recently posted a post on Cosmere Reddit with this same title, hoping to see what they thought about the following anecdote:

"You see, a few years ago, talking to some friends, we came to the conclusion that yellow eyes were the rarest type of eyes among Roshar's light eyes. Because this would be the genetic heritage of the Bondsmiths, and given their historical behavior, it is highly unlikely that they would have left much of an impact on the Rosharian gene pool.

After reviewing that conversation, I realized something theoretically. So there should be many more people with red Lighteyes on Roshar since they would be descendants of the Dustbringers and the Lightweavers. Where are those people?"

But it did not receive the type of interaction I expected, since I did not correctly calculate how many people were aware of the mechanism by which the lighteyes were generated in Roshar. My intention was to see what they thought about it: If it was Brandon's mistake or, on the contrary, if it gave us information about Roshar's past, at least during the Hierocracy.

I'm posting it here again to see what you think. And in this case, I'm going to place the sources xD

Quote

Argent

When a Surgebinder's eye color changes when they Surgebind or have a Blade [out], is the color of their eyes corresponding to their Order? So Windrunners would do blue, and then--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

So each Order gets a different eye color?

Brandon Sanderson

Each Order does indeed have an eye color representation.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

My question has to do with the color of Shallan's eyes currently, because we've noticed over the books that Kaladin's eyes, as he's continued to use his Surge, changed to lighter and lighter blue. Whereas one could argue that Shallan is farther in her Ideals than Kaladin is, yet her eyes have not changed at all.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, 'cause they were already light.

Questioner

'Cause they were already light? So it only affects lightness or darkness in the eyes, not necessarily any other color?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not like it is-- It's not like it's saying "Light minus 50%".

Questioner

It's not like Honor is blue and--

Brandon Sanderson

No. It is not. It is just kind of the way that the changes the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically... That's not to say that all lighteyes that's where they came from. There are some that are natural mutations.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

On the eye colors on Roshar, there are some weird ones, like orange and yellow. Are those there for a specific reason, or are they just--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. The whole eye color thing is kinda based a little bit on the Knights Radiant, the eyes changing is involved there. What's normal eye colors to them, it's just normal to them. It's not weird to see violet eyes and things like that. But it would be weird to us.

Questioner

Did the eyes have to do with the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

I recently posted a post on Cosmere Reddit with this same title, hoping to see what they thought about the following anecdote:

"You see, a few years ago, talking to some friends, we came to the conclusion that yellow eyes were the rarest type of eyes among Roshar's light eyes. Because this would be the genetic heritage of the Bondsmiths, and given their historical behavior, it is highly unlikely that they would have left much of an impact on the Rosharian gene pool.

After reviewing that conversation, I realized something theoretically. So there should be many more people with red Lighteyes on Roshar since they would be descendants of the Dustbringers and the Lightweavers. Where are those people?"

But it did not receive the type of interaction I expected, since I did not correctly calculate how many people were aware of the mechanism by which the lighteyes were generated in Roshar. My intention was to see what they thought about it: If it was Brandon's mistake or, on the contrary, if it gave us information about Roshar's past, at least during the Hierocracy.

I'm posting it here again to see what you think. And in this case, I'm going to place the sources xD

What are you trying to say? That red lighteyes are missing at all? I don't really remember which eye colors were mentioned, I think there were blue, violet and orange for sure, but even if red didn't appear on pages, they probably still are out there among the population, more or less in equal numbers as other colors (except for yellow, good catch). 

Lightweavers and Dustbringers' colors are different shades of red, those two would give two different lighteyes colors - wouldn't Lightweaver's color be more brownish than red? Garnets are their gemstones, Moash's eyes were dark brown, turned tan when bonded with Shards - maybe with a Lightweaver's blade.

Looking through the appearances of Notable lighteyes, most of them are lacking descriptions of their eye color at all. Just because people with those eye colors weren't mentioned (can't remember tbf) doesn't mean they aren't there. Yellow color was mentioned a few times.

Edited February 3 by alder24

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

Also, there are a few times where we see that Red eyes are immediately thought if a voidbringer. So in the thousand years since the last desolation, Red eyes were probably thought to be evil as the radiants weren’t there to be examples of good red eyes. So the only connection was to avoid ringers and Res eyes. In a thousand years, the decrease in popularity easily could have cause a weeding out in that gene, making it extremely rare, or even gone.

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

…Yellow color was mentioned a few times.

Curiously, the conversation arose as a result of the color change of Elhokar's eyes, which canonically went from being Yellow to Green.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

What are you trying to say? That red lighteyes are missing at all? I don't really remember which eye colors were mentioned, I think there were blue, violet and orange for sure, but even if red didn't appear on pages, they probably still are out there among the population, more or less in equal numbers as other colors (except for yellow, good catch).

In principle, I ask this because, at least in the world construction that Brandon proposed, the Red Eyes were, in the first instance, the antagonists (at least from the Vorin perspective). So if that is the case, how would that affect the descendants of Radiant who actually have that eye color in an era dominated by religion?

Quote

Questioner

I almost have a little bit of trouble understanding the difference between the Lighteyed and the darker...How did you come up with it?

Brandon Sanderson

I wanted to have some kind of racism in the books that was removed from the racism we have in our world, so I could talk about it in a more isolated way related to the books; and so, having it based on eye color made sense because the Voidbringers have these glowing red eyes and the Heralds have these bright eyes. So, this idea of eye color being related to your level of nobility, which is not true, but it entered the culture and became the form of racism and prejudice that they use.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Quote

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lighteyes

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Lightweavers and Dustbringers' colors are different shades of red, those two would give two different lighteyes colors - wouldn't Lightweaver's color be more brownish than red? Garnets are their gemstones, Moash's eyes were dark brown, turned tan when bonded with Shards - maybe with a Lightweaver's blade.

According to the information we have, the colors of the orders imitate the color of their corresponding polestone. And since Brandon already canonized the color garnet as "dark red tending towards violet" I don't think it's the brown type; I think it's more likely that Moash got a Shardblade corresponding to a Stoneward.

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Curiously, the conversation arose as a result of the color change of Elhokar's eyes, which canonically went from being Yellow to Green.

Interesing. I wonder why.

40 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

In principle, I ask this because, at least in the world construction that Brandon proposed, the Red Eyes were, in the first instance, the antagonists (at least from the Vorin perspective). So if that is the case, how would that affect the descendants of Radiant who actually have that eye color in an era dominated by religion?

OK I get it. Yeah, it's possible that there might be some racism and discrimination against people with red eyes. However, as the WoB you've posted said, the glowing red eyes, eyes that were completely red were a sign of Voidbringers, not just with red iris. People believed that red eyes were just a legend, nothing more. WoR ch 78:

Quote

Shallan reached out to check the Parshendi’s eye color. Did they have lighteyes and dark, like humans? She lifted the eyelid.
The eye beneath was completely red.
She screamed, jumping back, pulling her hand up to her chest. The soldiers cursed, looking around, and Dalinar’s Shardblade appeared in his hand a few seconds later.
“Red eyes,” Shallan whispered. “It’s happening.”
“The red eyes are just a legend.”
“Jasnah had an entire notebook of references to this, Brightlord,” Shallan said, shivering. “The Voidbringers are here. Time is short.”

I think there is enough to suggest that there was no widespread discrimination against Lighteyes with red irises, there might be some bullying happening on an individual level, but I wouldn't expect people with red irises to "go extinct" - especially that at least half of Roshar isn't influenced by Vorinism. But even under Vorinism I doubt people would be concerned by red irises.

40 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

According to the information we have, the colors of the orders imitate the color of their corresponding polestone. And since Brandon already canonized the color garnet as "dark red tending towards violet" I don't think it's the brown type; I think it's more likely that Moash got a Shardblade corresponding to a Stoneward.

Yes, the colors of Radiants are shown to us on the WoK Front Endsheet showing us glyphs of Radiant Orders and surges. Dustbringers have a clearly red color, Lightweavers have a very dark red, in my opinion it's more brown than red. Also the first ever mention of garnets in WoK describes them as "deep violet" - which doesn't fit to the color of the Lightweavers glyph. I just want to point out that those two are two clearly different colors. 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 vs 

 

Edited February 3 by alder24

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Quote

Shallan reached out to check the Parshendi’s eye color. Did they have lighteyes and dark, like humans? She lifted the eyelid.
The eye beneath was completely red.
She screamed, jumping back, pulling her hand up to her chest. The soldiers cursed, looking around, and Dalinar’s Shardblade appeared in his hand a few seconds later.
“Red eyes,” Shallan whispered. “It’s happening.”
“The red eyes are just a legend.”
“Jasnah had an entire notebook of references to this, Brightlord,” Shallan said, shivering. “The Voidbringers are here. Time is short.”

I think there is enough to suggest that there was no widespread discrimination against Lighteyes with red irises, there might be some bullying happening on an individual level, but I wouldn't expect people with red irises to "go extinct" - especially that at least half of Roshar isn't influenced by Vorinism. But even under Vorinism I doubt people would be concerned by red irises.

The recreance happened far before this scene, indeed, I feel your quote furthers the point that red lighteyes are not prominent enough to be broadly known of in society or else Shallan wouldn't have been surprised that the singer had red eyes. Further, the evidence is there that to historic scholars, red eyes were in fact associated with the voidbringers. Even while the Knights Radiant were around, the reputations of the orders of the Dustbringers and Lightweavers likely wouldn't have helped the case of light-eyed humans, as the Dustbringers were considered the most dangerous and reckless of the orders(right?) and the Lightweavers were naturally masters of deception, both of which, while put to good use, are easily misunderstood by the general populace.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Also, there are a few times where we see that Red eyes are immediately thought if a voidbringer. So in the thousand years since the last desolation, Red eyes were probably thought to be evil as the radiants weren’t there to be examples of good red eyes. So the only connection was to avoid ringers and Res eyes. In a thousand years, the decrease in popularity easily could have cause a weeding out in that gene, making it extremely rare, or even gone.

4 hours ago, Dofurion said:

According to the information we have, the colors of the orders imitate the color of their corresponding polestone. And since Brandon already canonized the color garnet as "dark red tending towards violet" I don't think it's the brown type; I think it's more likely that Moash got a Shardblade corresponding to a Stoneward.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Dustbringers have a clearly red color, Lightweavers have a very dark red, in my opinion it's more brown than red. Also the first ever mention of garnets in WoK describes them as "deep violet" - which doesn't fit to the color of the Lightweavers glyph. I just want to point out that those two are two clearly different colors.

Lightweavers have already been shown that thier Radiant Eye Shade is Violet:

Spoiler

Coppermind:

Quote

It is unclear where he gets the nickname Red from. He is tall and has light violet eyes. Before becoming a Lightweaver he is a darkeyed.

RoW Ch 39:

Quote

Red had been the first to respond among the Radiants she’d sent for. “His name’s Dabbid,” Red explained, peeking into the room with the prisoner. “Doesn’t talk. I don’t think he’s right in the head. Well, pardon, most Windrunners ain’t right in the head. They act like some kind of cult to Stormblessed, Brightness, pardon that, but they do that. This one’s extra odd though. I think he was one of the old ones, from Bridge Four. Gaz could tell you. He’s got a history with them.”

“Do you see a spren?” Navani asked.

Red’s eyes unfocused, and he seemed to be staring into the distance. He had light violet eyes now, though he’d been a darkeyes before joining the Lightweavers. Like others of his order, he could peer into Shadesmar.

“Don’t think so,” he said.

“That’s not a terribly encouraging answer, Radiant.”

 

It could be as simple as "Garnet" having multiple versions because the pole-stone does - or it could be that the Shardblade color is the "true" garnet and the (light)eyes are the "light" version (that edges toward the violet).

Which then imples that Dustbringers (Ruby), as an eye shade might "lighten" to pink or rose (or a similar shade) - both of which allow for a very difinitive difference from Voidbringer Red.

Edited February 3 by Treamayne
Clarity

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said:

The recreance happened far before this scene, indeed, I feel your quote furthers the point that red lighteyes are not prominent enough to be broadly known of in society or else Shallan wouldn't have been surprised that the singer had red eyes.

Shallan is not surprised by "red eyes," she recognised Voidbringer's red eyes, which are completely red. Not just irises but the entire eye is red. That's a big difference between common Ligtheyes with red irises.

14 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said:

the Dustbringers were considered the most dangerous and reckless of the orders(right?)

No. Their powers were the most destructive but they weren't considered to be reckless. The core idea of Dustbringers is about self-mastery and responsibility. Dustbringers were associated with Voidbringers because their names sounded similar. That's why they wanted to be called Releasers. WoR ch 36 epigraphs:

Quote

"And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers.” They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies."

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Dustbringer

I will seek self-mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

 

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Lightweavers have already been shown that thier Radiant Eye Shade is Violet:

Good to know but it doesn't really fit the glyph's color. And shouldn't violet be Willshaper's color? Their glyph is violet and their polestone is amethyst, or would they be more purple than violet? Still, very similar colors. 

Edited February 4 by alder24

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good to know but it doesn't really fit the glyph's color. And shouldn't violet be Willshaper's color? Their glyph is violet and their polestone is amethyst, or would they be more purple than violet? Still, very similar colors. 

I think that all the colors are similar enough that shades can be misconstrued. Especially if the Eye Shade is a reduced K-value of the true order shade (IIRC by Rhythm of War Kaladin's blue shade is described as a lighter shade of blue than it was back in WoK/WoR). This is true in real life as well, for example - what one person calls Puce another would call Mauve. That's why the Pantone pallettes are so heavily used in the Sign industry (I grew up working in a sign shop). 

Here's one of the "violet" Pantone pallettes, to illustrate:

Spoiler

All of those are shades of Voilet (steps in the K value) - of which Amethyst is included.

So, for example, Lightweavers might be somewhere on this chart (best I could find in a quick search - shades of purple with the red value stepped - note PMS = Pantone (color) Match System)

Spoiler

So, it could be as simple as (made up example) Lightweavers being PMS 2582 and Willshapers being B880FF - but people just call both shades "violet."

Edited February 4 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Dofurion]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

So, it could be as simple as (made up example) Lightweavers being PMS 2582 and Willshapers being B880FF - but people just call both shades "violet."

Taking it out of the color of its glyphs they would be:

• Lightweavers #6c011d
• Willshapers #672861

And increasing its illumination to 80%, assuming that it is the standard in lighteyes, would give us something like this:

• Lightweavers #fe9ab5
• Willshapers #e2b6de

vs

Honestly, if they can pass for the same type of color, but we still have the elephant in the room, which is the Dustbringers.

• #b02d2c glyph color
• #ebadad (80%L)

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Which then imples that Dustbringers (Ruby), as an eye shade might "lighten" to pink or rose (or a similar shade) - both of which allow for a very difinitive difference from Voidbringer Red.

We still have to see why the existence of any pink lighteyes is not mentioned. And we know that in Roshar there is a nuance for the color Pink.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:44 AM, alder24 said:

Shallan is not surprised by "red eyes," she recognised Voidbringer's red eyes, which are completely red. Not just irises but the entire eye is red. That's a big difference between common Ligtheyes with red irises.

I'm a little confused why you're making this assumption, but it seems plausible, if unsupported.

On 2/4/2024 at 7:44 AM, alder24 said:

No. Their powers were the most destructive but they weren't considered to be reckless. The core idea of Dustbringers is about self-mastery and responsibility. Dustbringers were associated with Voidbringers because their names sounded similar. That's why they wanted to be called Releasers. WoR ch 36 epigraphs:

They were definitely considered dangerous by the uninformed. They seem like the supers from the Incredibles universe honestly. Also, association with the voidbringers doesn't do anything to help them be more accepted.

Quote

Questioner

Do the Dustbringers have a propensity toward evilness?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them evil, but certain members of the Knights Radiant would say they're on the edge, and did not get along with them. Let's just say Skybreakers have not gotten along with Dustbringers, even though they are very near each other in a lot of ways.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

I think the only options are that the shades are lighter and get mistaken (eyes are small after all) or they were persecuted and mostly disappeared from the population.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

I'm a little confused why you're making this assumption, but it seems plausible, if unsupported.

Because the quote said "The eye beneath was completely red."

13 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

They were definitely considered dangerous by the uninformed. They seem like the supers from the Incredibles universe honestly. Also, association with the voidbringers doesn't do anything to help them be more accepted.

Quote

Questioner

Do the Dustbringers have a propensity toward evilness?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them evil, but certain members of the Knights Radiant would say they're on the edge, and did not get along with them. Let's just say Skybreakers have not gotten along with Dustbringers, even though they are very near each other in a lot of ways.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Skybreakers famously didn't get along with Windrunners too. Dustbringers are known for breaking things apart because they want to know what's inside and how they work, that could make them "on the edge" in the eyes of certain Radiants - certain, not all. 

OB ch 27:

Quote

“Well,” Shallan whispered, “she’s annoying.”
“Mmm…” Pattern said. “It will be worse when she starts destroying things.”
“Destroying?”
“Dustbringer,” Pattern said. “Her spren … mmm … they like to break what is around them. They want to know what is inside.”

I've searched through WoK (1), WoR (1), OB (6) and RoW (4) mentions of Dustbringers - the WoR epigraph quoted earlier and this one from OB are the only sources of our information about how people in the past perceived Dustbringers. I refute your claim that Dustbringers were the most dangerous and reckless of Radiant Orders, or were perceived as such. Instead I argue people feared their destructive powers (and their powers were one of the most destructive), they mistook them for Voidbringers because of their similar sounding names, lastly their personality and urge to break things apart didn't help at all. The difference is small but in my mind important to point out. There is no proof that they were considered to be the most reckless of all orders. In reality Dustbringers were the very opposite - they worked to achieve full control over themselves and their powers. 

After the Recreance every Radiant Order was named as traitors and all of them were associated with Voidbringers. The idea that red Lighteyes were persecuted because Dustbringers before the Recreance were somewhat misjudged for Voidbringers doesn't work for me. This would apply to every Order and every eye color after the Recreance. That can't be the reason for absence of red eyes - if such absence even is a thing. I also don't know if people of the past would have made this connection between red and Dustbringers as the knowledge about Radiants in general faded really fast after the Recreance, so it's possible this would have been forgotten as well.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

After the Recreance every Radiant Order was named as traitors and all of them were associated with Voidbringers.

We do know that lighteyes had to have seeped into the general population before the recreance, or else lighteyes would be associated with the voidbringers as well, and would not be in power at any point. This by no means is affirming that red/pink lighteyes don't exist because of prejudice, as there could be plenty of different reasons, however, I do think it's still worth considering, though, since I have not seen any indication that Alethi social structure has changed drastically (other than ardents loosing some power, big time) since the recreance.

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

We do know that lighteyes had to have seeped into the general population before the recreance, or else lighteyes would be associated with the voidbringers as well, and would not be in power at any point.

Actually we don't know that. As seen by Kaladin's example, even when they are Radiants, their eyes slowly fade back to their original color when they don't summon their Shardblades for some time. I don't remember if non-Radiant lighteyes were even mentioned in Dalinar's visions but he was constantly surprised by seeing darkeyes in the position of power. 

28 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

since I have not seen any indication that Alethi social structure has changed drastically (other than ardents loosing some power, big time) since the recreance.

You mean they haven't changed for 2000 years? I say it's impossible for them not to change drastically in that time.