Shard influence on Scadrial (other than Ruin/Preservation) aka Cazzi Religion has to do with Ambition/Threnody theory

[Benkinsky they/them]

Hello! A topic that I'm quite interested in is Ancient (pre-Rashek) Scadrial. There are a few bits and pieces that we know, and I wonder if those are going to become relevant in the future. I wanted to open this thread to collect both a) knowledge we already have and especially b) theories based on that. So for starters, here's a few facts.

Scadrial is one of only two planets we have seen that were not there before the Shattering. Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation together, as were the Humans on it (after the Yolish Blueprint, basically). Rashek's Ascension put a huge change to how Culture developed on Scadrial, including the almost-elimination of all the ancient Religions that Sazed documented. As of Mistborn Era 2, Rashek's Ascension was about 1300 years ago. The First Desolation and Oathpact are both over 6000 years old (or like 10 000? I'm not sure about that rn), and Era 2 is shortly after KWT. From what I can piece together, that means there were over 6000 years of history on Scadrial that we know almost nothing about. "But Benkinsky, that was before The Final Empire, and that's already 300 years back and Scadrial has moved on." I hear you say, Strawman that you are. So here's a few reminders for why we should be interested in this time:

• Ancient Terris could become more relevant still now that Terris Culture is more intermingled with the rest of Scadrial.
• Trell/Autonomy was in some way connected to one of the Religions of Ancient Scadrial. It was apprently deliberately created by Autonomy to be there for them to co-opt once she'd need to.
• We know that in this pre-Rashek time, Scadrial was visited by multiple other shards (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e9386). We even have confirmation that Odium has influence on scadrial (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6141)

 

I wonder what else will happen relating to these visits that we have already seen hints for. Yes, the Religions Sazed documented already served a plot purpose by letting him rebuild Scadrial after the Catacendre, buuut like with Trellagism, I assume some of them might have future implications too. I would like to hear what you guys think which Shards might have an interest in Scadrial and why. We already know Autonomy was concerned about Scadrials technological development, but what about others? Let's look at a few religions we know and shards they might correspond to.

Ambition:

I'll start with the one religion that interests me the most: Cazzi(sm). "The Cazzi are a people familiar with death, and death chants are among their beliefs. These chants are believed by the Cazzi to help free the spirits of the dead from their corpses, allowing them to return to the "mountain of souls"." Death is part of multiple shardic influences - not just Hemalurgy. I'm thinking especially of Shades. While there is so far no proof of Death chants having magic properties, we know from RoW that tones can play a big role in some magic interactions, and we have seen multiple instances of people returning to life after death. The most prominent ones are maybe the Returned and Lifeless, both of which happens with Endowments Investiture. But we also have Nazh saying something like "you can't just become a shade. There are important Rites to that." a Death Chant that helps "free the spirits of the dead from their corpses", doesn't that sound an awful lot like a Rite for a person who died and becomes a shade? hmm? hmmmm? There could be some sort of command in the chants too.

The Lord Ruler modeled the lives of the Skaa after the Cazzi. The Skaa were scared to go into the Mists because of the Mistwraiths. The people of the Forest of Hell are scared to go into the forest because of the Shades. Mistwraiths are weird not-dead creatures, amalgamations of body parts. Mountains of body, in a way.

I think the Cazzi religion is connected to whatever Threnody was like pre-Evil, and these death chants are an offspring of that culture or have the same root. Ambition must surely have been interested in the CREATION OF A PLANET BY TWO SHARDS, right? That's ambitious as hell.

Tin helmet on: Maybe the Cazzi religion even tells us a bit about the evil. The "Mountain of souls" as some sort of spiritual concept for a magical entity, one that gets out of hand after Ambition dies, and that's what the Evil is?

 

Endowment or Virtuosity

Two ancient religions, Dadradah and Astalsi are "branches of the same ancient religion", and Dadradah especially is "influenced by Nalthian ideas (...) but doesn't originate there". https://wob.coppermind.net/events/389-munchen-signing/#e12673 ; https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e10923. These religions are concerned with (Dadradah) artistic expression and (Astalsi) Bad Luck and colours respectively. This leads me to think of two different shards, and the mention of Bad Luck sounds like some variation on Fortune. Two reasons why I think these religions might be more than just religions, and have something to do with actual realmatic concepts and/or shards.

• Endowment, though she doesn't seem like the type to be overly concerned with the rest of the Cosmere. Of course, that's now. Maybe during the early centuries she was still looking around, and that ancient religion might have been based on what Endowment got up to post-Shattering, with Austrism, Dadradah and Astalsi all stemming from this. the destinction between specific shades of colour has relevance on Nalthis for those of certain Hightenings. I wonder what the ancient religion was concerned about.
• Virtuosity. For similar reasons. Why Colour and Art appear in Warbreaker a lot, Virtuosity is the artist shard. Virtuosity definitely seems like the kind of shard who didn't settle for a long time post-Shattering (Adonalsiums, that is), and roaming around to see different places is an artsy thing to do. I would not be surprised if this ancient religion that Dadradah and Astalsi are branches of has something to do with Virtuosity

 

Whimsy

I'm blanking here. We know that the Set knew about Whimsy's existence, and if i recall correctly then someone noticed that while Wayne is walking around Elendel and whistling a certain tune that comes naturally to him and he has never heard before or something like that, the word whimsical is used multiple times to describe him and how he feels. if anyone knows more or could remind me what exactly the Set know? I don't really know where to go with this but it certainly seems like Whimsy is more likely to appear somewhere down the line than any of the married Rosharan or Selish shards, who were busy with each other probably.

 

Odium

We have confirmation that Odium specifically has some influence on Scadrial. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6141. Kelsier has an irrational hatred of nobles, that could be connected. I remember while reading thinking to myself "it's weird that Ruin looses his grip on the Koloss and Steel Inquisitors when they go into bloodlust" until I read SA and met The Thrill/Nergaoul. Very similar. At first, i figured that because Odium was the shard of Passion/Hatred, that meant that this area was his domain and that's why Ruin loses power there, but that's not really how it works. Still, emotional allomancy is important for hemalurgic constructs.

Maybe Odium sowed a few seeds on Scadrial? Preservation and Ruin were so busy with each other that they might have missed something, maybe not something as big as an Unmade but something lesser. Something for Odium's influence to push Scadrial in a conflict-ridden direction? I mean, either it would lead to a future foe for Odiums spacefaring conquerer army, which is great, orr it could even lead to another warring planet for Odium to recruit from once he was done on Roshar?

 

Cultivation

I doubt that Cultivation was busy with other planets when she and Honor went to Roshar, which already existed and was, for some reason, already important to Adonalsium. Then again, Cultivation is exactly the sort of intent that would lead someone to planet seeds early on for future use, like Autonomy did. Plant seeds, you say? Interesting choice of words.

"HaDah is a religion from Classical Scadrial, and has been extinct for a thousand years. HaDah is a religion in the south which worships an agricultural god. Sazed gives Jed a HaDah funeral after learning from Teur that he was killed by the Deepness. The HaDah funeral ceremony involves taking a branch and driving it into the bottom of the grave next to the corpse's head, such that once the grave is full, only the tip of the branch breaches the surface."

That's all we know about HaDah, and I personally doubt that it's one of the likelier religions to become relevant, buuuut if it did I bet it would be because of Cultivation.

 

 

 

We know Odium and atleast one other shard have had some influence or interest in Ancient Scadrial. That could just be Autonomy, who is also confirmed, but I think it won't be. The combination of the ONLY (so far) shard-made planet soon after the Shattering paired with two shards who are VERY busy with each other definitely invited some attention. What do you think, who else might have had an interest in Scadrial, and in what way?

[Treamayne]

Good summary, thank you

2 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

The combination of the ONLY (so far) shard-made planet

Depends on definitions - but Autonomy either made Taldain as it is tidally locked, or moved things around to create that configuration. Endowment might not have "made" Nalthis - but she made the inhabitants. 

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Is there like a Cosmere-significant reason why, on Scadrial, the Investiture is hereditary, but that that doesn't really seem to be the case on any of the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is, but it has to do more with the fact that on Scadrial, human beings were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. And most of the Cosmere worlds you've seen don't have that same sort of aspect. It is the case on Nalthis, but it's not the case on Roshar, it's not the case on Taldain, it's not the case on Sel. And so because of that instance, that's how I'm kind of working, that changed the way people interact with magic directly. But there is some wiggle room there for me. But that's your answer, that's the actual... there's.. I'm not hiding anything there, there is wiggle room. What I'm saying is don't extrapolate that that has to happen every time that the Shards were directly involved in the creation...

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Excerpt from the White Sand (Omnibus) Ars Arcanum:

Spoiler

Despite the benefit of the stars, we Elisians are still missing huge parts of the puzzle. From what I have observed, there are at least three evidences that show other unseen forces are at work.

First, the astronomer Djodjen observed moons orbiting Ridos's Eye and learned of stable and unstable orbits.The Eye is in a stable orbit around the Dayside sun (AisDa), but Taldain is not. It's stuck in an unstable orbit Djodjen refers to as Wombear's Saddle - if you place a marble in a saddle, it will roll one way or the other. Taldain, however, is pulled along by the Eye instead of rolling off into a stable orbit. For Taldain to stay locked this way requires an outside force we don't understand yet.

Second, both Dayside and Darkside base the measurement of one "day" upon the orbital period of the moon. The particulate cloud that envelops the Eye on Darkside pulses once every seven days, to the second. Is it a coincidence that the time between pulses and seven of the moon's orbital periods match up exactly? It's almost as if it was engineered this way.

Third, Djodjen's observations of the moons orbiting the Eye demonstrate the peculiarity of the orbit of Taldain's moon. As Taldain orbits the sun, the moon's orbit should gradually change, and yet it does not. Like clockwork, the moon is in the same place in the sky at First Hour in Kezare, for example, no matter the day, month or year.

 

 

[Benkinsky they/them]

Something to add to the Cazzi part specifically. u/Kingsdaughter613 pointed out on Reddit that the names of the planets in the Threnody system (Threnody, Elegy, Monody and even the moon Coronach) are names for death laments, a poem for the dead and a funeral song respectively. Which matches with the idea of Death chants well.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

As of Mistborn Era 2, Rashek's Ascension was about 1300 years ago. The First Desolation and Oathpact are both over 6000 years old (or like 10 000? I'm not sure about that rn), and Era 2 is shortly after KWT.

Rashek's Ascension was around 1373 years ago (1025+348, when Wayne died). The First Desolation was 7000 years ago, but that's in Rosharan years. 1 Rosharan year is 1.1 Earth/Scadrial year, so the First Desolation was 7700 years before SA. However we know that between the Shattering and Aharietiam, there was around 6000 years, between Aharietiam and WoK there was 4500 years - so since the Shattering there has been around 11000 years. But the timeline might have changed since then.

RoW ch 80:

Quote

"The singers first put Jezrien into a gemstone. They think they are clever, discovering they can trap us in those. It only took them seven thousand years."

 

Spoiler

Peter Ahlstrom

The Rosharan year is 1.10 Earth years. The Rosharan hour is a little bit shorter.

name_here

Let me guess: it's 50 minutes.

E: no, just checked on calculator, apparently it's 57.816 minutes.

Peter Ahlstrom

But it's 50 Rosharan minutes. 

Miscellaneous 2014 (March 20, 2014)

 

Spoiler

leftinspace

Can you tell me how long it was from the Shattering of Adonalsium to the prelude of The Way of Kings when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

Current timeline, which I have NOT canonized, is around 6,000 years... I have not finished with my outline document yet.

[...]

Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)

 

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

From what I can piece together, that means there were over 6000 years of history on Scadrial that we know almost nothing about.

More like ~9000.

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Ambition:

I'll start with the one religion that interests me the most: Cazzi(sm). "The Cazzi are a people familiar with death, and death chants are among their beliefs. These chants are believed by the Cazzi to help free the spirits of the dead from their corpses, allowing them to return to the "mountain of souls"." Death is part of multiple shardic influences - not just Hemalurgy. I'm thinking especially of Shades. While there is so far no proof of Death chants having magic properties, we know from RoW that tones can play a big role in some magic interactions, and we have seen multiple instances of people returning to life after death. The most prominent ones are maybe the Returned and Lifeless, both of which happens with Endowments Investiture. But we also have Nazh saying something like "you can't just become a shade. There are important Rites to that." a Death Chant that helps "free the spirits of the dead from their corpses", doesn't that sound an awful lot like a Rite for a person who died and becomes a shade? hmm? hmmmm? There could be some sort of command in the chants too.

The Lord Ruler modeled the lives of the Skaa after the Cazzi. The Skaa were scared to go into the Mists because of the Mistwraiths. The people of the Forest of Hell are scared to go into the forest because of the Shades. Mistwraiths are weird not-dead creatures, amalgamations of body parts. Mountains of body, in a way.

I think the Cazzi religion is connected to whatever Threnody was like pre-Evil, and these death chants are an offspring of that culture or have the same root. Ambition must surely have been interested in the CREATION OF A PLANET BY TWO SHARDS, right? That's ambitious as hell.

Tin helmet on: Maybe the Cazzi religion even tells us a bit about the evil. The "Mountain of souls" as some sort of spiritual concept for a magical entity, one that gets out of hand after Ambition dies, and that's what the Evil is?

I think that would be very unlikely because of the timeline. Ambition was a second Shard to be Splintered, right after Devotion and Dominion. It happened AT LEAST 7700 years before WoK - before the First Desolation, when Odium was already trapped on Roshar. That means that Ambition's last window to "visit" Scadrial was at least ~6400 years before Rashek's Ascension. That's a very, very far in the past. 

Moreover that "culture of death" on Threnody is a direct result of Splintering of Ambition and the battle between Ambition, Mercy and Odium that raged there. Ambition was mortally wounded there, which sent chunks of her Investiture raining down on the entire system and Threnody itself. It affected Threnodites which resulted in them having a "seed of Shade" in their soul. Shades are heavily implied to be a result of Splintering of Ambition. That means that before Ambition was Splintered, there would be no prominent "culture of death" on Threnody. All of this is because Ambition was Splintered.

Even more - that culture would be even less developed before the smaller continent with Shades was even discovered. It's hard to put a date on that in relation to Cosmere, but we know the story of Silence in the Forests of Hell happened a few generations after the continent was just discovered - Silence's grandmother was one of the first Forescouts who set their foot on this land. At most that's around 60, maybe 70 years before Silence's story takes place (assuming her grandmother was in her 20s when she landed in the Forests).

We also know that Shadows for Silence happened after Mistborn Era 1 and also after Warbreaker, which takes place only a few generations before WoK - let's say around 100 years before WoK. That means that the Forests of Hell were discovered more or less in the same time when Warbreaker is happening, which is around 200 years AFTER Catacendre, ~1100 after Rashek's Ascension. And only after the Forests of Hell were discovered, this "culture of death" would become so prominent on Threnody - sure it might have been there before it in some lesser way, after all Ambition was wounded there, but only when they first contacted Shades it would have become so grand. 

For me that timeline simply doesn't work. Additionally, not every death related rite is associated with Ambition - Listeners sing songs when they are dying and they have no Connection to Ambition, Marsh became the incarnation of Death itself, which is spreading across Cosmere. Death is a part of EVERY Shard, even Preservation - he accompanied deceased souls into the Beyond. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order?

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO.

• Elantris
• The Emperor’s Soul
• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive
• Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law)
• Sixth of the Dusk
• Future Mistborn trilogy

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans?

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

LewsTherinTelescope

Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it does.  The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening.  We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Orrin

I've always wondered how the Threnodites are so well known. Beyond shades, we don't see powers there. How are they so well-traveled?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple of things going on here. One is: there are ways on and off Threnody, and any of the planets that you can get on and off without needing FTL do spread through the cosmere pretty well.

The other thing is: the event that created Threnody as it's known in the cosmere (which is the death of Ambition) has wide-reaching ramifications. It's a very famous place in the same way that most people know the Bikini Islands when they might not otherwise know it, if that makes any sense. It's the source of something that has had great implications for the entirety of the cosmere.

Halloween Livestream (Oct. 31, 2023)

 

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Whimsy

I'm blanking here. We know that the Set knew about Whimsy's existence, and if i recall correctly then someone noticed that while Wayne is walking around Elendel and whistling a certain tune that comes naturally to him and he has never heard before or something like that, the word whimsical is used multiple times to describe him and how he feels. if anyone knows more or could remind me what exactly the Set know? I don't really know where to go with this but it certainly seems like Whimsy is more likely to appear somewhere down the line than any of the married Rosharan or Selish shards, who were busy with each other probably.

I don't think we have anything to say about Whimsy. It's not a stretch to claim that once you become Cosmere aware, it's easy to learn names of all Shards and their general characteristics - that's why Set knew about Whimsy. And that's the only thing we know about Whimsy on Scadrial. TLM ch 35:

Quote

“Unless I prove to her that we’re worth saving,” she [Telsin] explained, turning to survey the city. As before, she didn’t seem to care that she had her back to him. “Autonomy is … odd. She respects those who are bold, strong, able to survive on their own. But she also wants them to obey her. I suppose that is the irony of godhood. Half the time, being ‘autonomous’ means following her plan. And there’s no Whimsy to her—that’s a different god."

 

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

I remember while reading thinking to myself "it's weird that Ruin looses his grip on the Koloss and Steel Inquisitors when they go into bloodlust" until I read SA and met The Thrill/Nergaoul.

That's specifically because of a nature of realms and emotions. The power to control Hemalurgic constructs is emotional Allomancy, it's a pressure put on emotions that allows others to control spiked. But this control grows weaker when a person is experiencing extreme emotions - like Koloss blood frenzy. Emotions are also a reason for Snapping - only someone who experienced extreme emotions could have been Snapped and Mists were doing just that, making those emotions. Emotions are heavily connected to the soul. It's not because of Odium. Thrill is just using the same mechanism we saw on Scadrial, but this is just the nature of Cosmere.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010)

 

Spoiler

RoboChrist

Did Kelsier really hear Preservation's voice telling him to Survive when he was in the pits of Hathsin? Or was it Ruin pretending to be Preservation?

If it was Preservation, does that mean Kelsier died in the pits? Or were there special circumstances that allowed Kelsier to hear Preservation's voice without dying?

Brandon Sanderson

Special things often happen in the cosmere when someone is very close to death, or undergoing intense pain (either physical or emotional.) Barriers between the realms weaken.

I can confirm that the Kelsier who left the pits was not a Cognitive Shadow.

Phantine

Could he have become a Shadow using the pits if he died immediately after snapping?

Brandon Sanderson

Possibly.

General Reddit 2017 (Aug. 28, 2017)

 

Regarding Odium, it's interesting to point out that Odium was keeping an eye on Scadrial. He was expecting Ruin to implode, thus he would not bother with attacking those Shards if he weren't imprisoned on Roshar. His influence on Scadrial might have been seeded there in preparation for his attack in far future, but once he was imprisoned he might have abandoned whatever he was doing there. Now that Harmony successfully merged two Shards, he might be dusting off his past plans.

Spoiler

Double

Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list?

Brandon Sanderson

He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Cultivation

I doubt that Cultivation was busy with other planets when she and Honor went to Roshar, which already existed and was, for some reason, already important to Adonalsium.

She was interested in other planets, she visited Ashyn (it's in the same system but still it's something):

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

The combination of the ONLY (so far) shard-made planet soon after the Shattering

Well, Nalthis was created relatively recently, so recently that it doesn't have fossils yet. It was implied that Nalthis, or at least humanity on Nalthis was created directly by Endowment when she settled in the system:

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there like a Cosmere-significant reason why, on Scadrial, the Investiture is hereditary, but that that doesn't really seem to be the case on any of the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there is, but it has to do more with the fact that on Scadrial, human beings were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. And most of the Cosmere worlds you've seen don't have that same sort of aspect. It is the case on Nalthis, but it's not the case on Roshar, it's not the case on Taldain, it's not the case on Sel. And so because of that instance, that's how I'm kind of working, that changed the way people interact with magic directly. But there is some wiggle room there for me. But that's your answer, that's the actual... there's.. I'm not hiding anything there, there is wiggle room. What I'm saying is don't extrapolate that that has to happen every time that the Shards were directly involved in the creation...

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

 

Overall this was a very interesting read and I think you're onto something, drawing proper Connections between religions and Shards. It's worth looking more into it. Good job.

Edited February 15 by alder24

[Koloss17 She/They]

43 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Something to add to the Cazzi part specifically. u/Kingsdaughter613 pointed out on Reddit that the names of the planets in the Threnody system (Threnody, Elegy, Monody and even the moon Coronach) are names for death laments, a poem for the dead and a funeral song respectively. Which matches with the idea of Death chants well.

Fun fact! @Kingsdaughter613 is on the shard! She isn't as active as she is on Reddit, but she exists!

I also wonder how the Iriali and the Long Trail fit into it. Obviously we don't know of the origin of the Iriali or the religion, but it is interesting. Though I frankly don't know how much you are counting the newer influences to the planet.

 

However, I will note that Dominion and Devotion likely had some sort of influence, if indirect, on Scadrial. We know that for the longest time, there was some form of cosmerelogical trade between Scadrial and Taldain or Sel. There was a great but ultimately unfounded theory a while back on the Lord Ruler's can stashes being a valuable trade commodity. Ultimately, I think the abundance of metals and atium were the valuable trade goods. Hoid mentioned in SH that Ruin's Perpendicularity was a major trade hub up until Kelsier ruined (ha) it. And past that, there's also the Ire, which undoubtedly interacted with Scadrial before trying to take Preservation.

Through similar means, Autonomy has been hovering around Scadrial for a long time. Obviously she spent time meddling post Catacendre, but they are also almost certainly responsible for original Trellagism.

Edited February 15 by Koloss17

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Through similar means, Autonomy has been hovering around Scadrial for a long time. Obviously she spent time meddling post Catacendre, but they are also almost certainly responsible for original Trellagism.

Yes, that was the premise in the beginning of the OP - "we know Autonomy did this with Trell, so i think other Shards did this too"

12 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Ultimately, I think the abundance of metals and atium were the valuable trade goods. Hoid mentioned in SH that Ruin's Perpendicularity was a major trade hub up until Kelsier ruined (ha) it.

Don't forget Felt - one reason why he was "able" to move to Roshar was because his job as Venture's spy allowed him to know about Ruin's perpendicularity and the trade that was going on there. WoBs

Spoiler

Quote

Khyrindor (edited to relevance

Was Felt cosmere-aware during Era 1?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Khyrindor

Was he directly involved in the interplanetary trade through the Pits?

Brandon Sanderson

He was involved. Whether directly is the right term or not I will not say.

Khyrindor

And is he part of the Seventeenth Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

He has been a member of various different groups and had various different motivations over the years. I would not put him, right now, as a member of the Seventeenth Shard.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Quote

Avery Hinks

Is there a canonical reason why Vasher and Vivenna changed their names to Zahel and Azure on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it kind of comes into the fact that Vasher has gone through a bunch of name changes and there are a couple of answers to this. One is, in the Cosmere, like in a lot of like fantasy worlds, names and identity are just a pretty big deal, part of how the magic works is how you view yourself, and I like, in that instance, indicating that time has passed and the character has adopted a new name and things like this, it's just that's a thing.

You've also probably noticed that behind the scenes in the Cosmere there are lots of different groups vying for control and power and things like this, and so going under a pseudonym's actually a pretty good idea. I guess an alias, they're not writing books, it's not pseudonyms, you know what I mean, going under an alias's generally a pretty good idea for just if you don't want attention from the wrong people.

That said, I do have to balance this because, for instance, in Azure's case, you know, I picked something that Vivenna had, you know, blue had been associated with her in the previous book, so it's not a completely, that's partially for the reader's benefit, so it's easier for you to track who is who, just a little bit, and just a little bit easier to figure out who is who.

But if run into someone like Felt, right? Felt doesn't care. He's not hiding from anybody. Felt is, you know, he's more like "I moved from Nebraska to Texas," right? "And now I'm living in Texas." That's more how he views it a little bit. He's not a secret agent (ooh, big spoilers). Felt just, you know, he moved, so he goes by the same name. And that's, you'll see some of that as well. If someone's going by an alias, I'm doing it to indicate one of those two things, usually.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

From the Portfolio - if any were indicative of Sel, I would guess:

• The Bennet, and the holy need to make maps and charts could be tied to Dominion
• Valla, Devotion to leaders already dead. . . 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

12 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Something to add to the Cazzi part specifically. u/Kingsdaughter613 pointed out on Reddit that the names of the planets in the Threnody system (Threnody, Elegy, Monody and even the moon Coronach) are names for death laments, a poem for the dead and a funeral song respectively. Which matches with the idea of Death chants well.

BTW, I’m on here too. Hi!

[Benkinsky they/them]

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

BTW, I’m on here too. Hi!

Hi! I hadn't know, glad you were tagged! glad to have you here too

 

On 2/15/2024 at 3:04 PM, Treamayne said:

Yes, that was the premise in the beginning of the OP - "we know Autonomy did this with Trell, so i think other Shards did this too"

(...)

From the Portfolio - if any were indicative of Sel, I would guess:

• The Bennet, and the holy need to make maps and charts could be tied to Dominion
• Valla, Devotion to leaders already dead. . . 

1. yup

and 2. I hadn't paid attention to those, but yeah. This is a more superficial connection, but Kiin was a ship's captain - which are priests in the Truths of the Bennet. Wonder if Elantris 2 or 3 will show us that Kiin follows some sort of spiritual school or religion that is common among sailors. If so, we should return to this thread hehe

That said, from how I understand, the whole map-making thing is only really relevant on Sel since the Dor is in the cognitive Realm. I doubt that Devotion and Dominion intended for maps to be part of their magics, or atleast I would be surprised. That characteristic of selish magic is post-shard-death, I think. That said, Sazed would have loved to tell Shai about the Bennet, I bet.

The Valla, I think we might be misunderstanding something here. From how I understand it, we know that the religion continued to "thrive" (that is, survive during the Final Empire) for a bit even after the leaders were dead, not that dead leaders are necessarily part of its religious/spiritual teachings. Of course, we don't know yet WHY this religion was better at continuing its activity than others. Maybe the reason for that is something we'll learn about later, and could have something to do with another shard.

 

On 2/15/2024 at 2:39 PM, Koloss17 said:

 there's also the Ire, which undoubtedly interacted with Scadrial before trying to take Preservation.

Maybe Ire activity is part of what created the Truths of the Bennet? Less one of the shards and rather some old Elantrian (seeing how the Ire were already off-world during Elantris and Elantris is hundreds of years before TFE) doing some research on Scadrial, and becoming a holy figure. Which wouldn't be surprising with the glowing skin and magic abilities that Scadrians don't know. And "you should make good and accurate maps" is certainly the kind of mission I would give my mortal followers if I expect to come back to this planet from time to time and know that I need maps to be powerful there. Plus, ship captains are the kind of people you want for that job.

 

On 2/15/2024 at 2:02 PM, alder24 said:

Overall this was a very interesting read and I think you're onto something, drawing proper Connections between religions and Shards. It's worth looking more into it. Good job.

Thank you! And thank you for your very extensive research, those were a bunch of interesting WoBs i hadn't known. I still want to hold onto the Cazzi theory for now, though you make some very solid points. The window is small for Ambition to pop into Scadrial and meddle there, but it exists.

Do we have confirmation that Shades only appeared after the Evil or rather after the Death of Ambition? We know from Wabreaker that apparently Awakening wasn't even discovered for hundreds of years, so while it wasn't a thing humans did, the setup for it technically already existed. What I'm trying to say is that maybe Ambition had some designs for magic regarding Death Rites of Passage to become a cognitive shadow, and since she died and was splintered, those designs mutated and went haywire and that resulted in the Evil and the shades? I think it's odd that Shades are apprently only on that continent, wonder how similar the reason for that is to why on Sel magic differs by place. Localized chunks of investiture or something like that.

thanks for finding the Whimsy quote too, I agree that mentioning her by name means nothing. I mean, Ialai knew the names of some planets cause the Sons of Honor did, but that doesn't mean much either, so yeah.

 

Sel / Scadrial certainly seems to be worth thinking about, both cause there might have been some trade there, two religions cooooould have something to do with Selish shards or atleast agents who are from that planet, aaaand cause investiture-scientists probably would discover parallels between their magic systems (cough cough read my AonDor Compounding theory cough cough).

On 2/15/2024 at 2:39 PM, Koloss17 said:

We know that for the longest time, there was some form of cosmerelogical trade between Scadrial and Taldain or Sel.

You don't happen to know where we got that info from? so we could check it again? Taldain would make sense since we already know Autonomy/Trell connections, but Sel would certainly be interesting.

[Treamayne]

I apologize for being unclear:

23 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

That said, from how I understand, the whole map-making thing is only really relevant on Sel since the Dor is in the cognitive Realm. I doubt that Devotion and Dominion intended for maps to be part of their magics, or atleast I would be surprised. That characteristic of selish magic is post-shard-death, I think. That said, Sazed would have loved to tell Shai about the Bennet, I bet.

I did not mean that making maps was part of the Manifestatoins of Investiture - I only meant that as far as we know so far, Dominion is about National Identity, Governance, etc. . . Making maps is  (at least partly) an expression of identifying and codifying "this part is this country and that part is that country."

Only mentioning because there could be a nebulous connection to Intent (after all Ancient Trelligism did not really have much "Autonomy" obviously visible)

23 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

The Valla, I think we might be misunderstanding something here. From how I understand it, we know that the religion continued to "thrive" (that is, survive during the Final Empire) for a bit even after the leaders were dead, not that dead leaders are necessarily part of its religious/spiritual teachings.

Ditto reason. I wasn;t so much focused on the "dead" as that they showed Devotion so strong, it continued after their leaders died. Again, just a possible nebulous connection based on Intent.

23 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

You don't happen to know where we got that info from? so we could check it again? Taldain would make sense since we already know Autonomy/Trell connections, but Sel would certainly be interesting.

Drifter in SH (Ch 2-1), Khriss in M:SH (Ch 3-2), Riino (Rii Oracle - who is Ire) stocking Scadrian canned food  (Oathbringer Ch 97)

Edited February 16 by Treamayne
SPAG/Trade Question

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Do we have confirmation that Shades only appeared after the Evil or rather after the Death of Ambition?

Shades existed in the Forests of Hell before the continent was discovered by the Foresouts - that was before the Evil appeared, after Ambition's death. The Forescouts stumbled on the continent full of Shades. Threnodites from the Homeland didn't turn into Shades after death. The Evil seems to be unrelated to Shades. TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

We know Threnodites turn into Shades because there is something very wrong with their soul. That wrongness was probably "seeded" into them when Ambition died.

Spoiler

Questioner

So the Threnodites are described as having a smokey shadow something to their soul; we don't really know what that is. Is it more similar to the black smoke that comes from Awakened objects in Yumi and Nightblood? Or is it more like Midnight Essence in Tress?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

 

A thing to consider - some religions on Scadrial might have been developed not because of some direct Shard intervention, but rather a natural pattern of human migration and voyage in Cosmere. Just people who move, travel and trade will spread their ideas and their religious beliefs to other places and some of the natives might have gotten inspired and organized a religion around those ideas, based on the same teachings that exist on other planets. This might grant a foreign Shard some influence on Scadrial overtime, but that might have been simply an accident, not a deliberate action. 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:52 AM, Benkinsky said:

HaDah is a religion from Classical Scadrial, and has been extinct for a thousand years. HaDah is a religion in the south which worships an agricultural god. Sazed gives Jed a HaDah funeral after learning from Teur that he was killed by the Deepness. The HaDah funeral ceremony involves taking a branch and driving it into the bottom of the grave next to the corpse's head, such that once the grave is full, only the tip of the branch breaches the surface."

That's all we know about HaDah, and I personally doubt that it's one of the likelier religions to become relevant, buuuut if it did I bet it would be because of Cultivation.

HaDah sounds more like a JinDo name. JinDo is also "famous" for the export of RaiDel peppers, and the funeral ritual could stem from ChayShan.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Lego Mistborn said:

HaDah sounds more like a JinDo name. JinDo is also "famous" for the export of RaiDel peppers, and the funeral ritual could stem from ChayShan.

Does it "sound" more JinDo, or "look" more JinDo? 

Keep in mind the Kandra also use the mid-word capitalization. Though, we do not know if any of the First Generation used that structure, as the only name we received was Haddek. 

Also, MaiPon uses the structure as well. 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

25 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Does it "sound" more JinDo, or "look" more JinDo? 

Keep in mind the Kandra also use the mid-word capitalization. Though, we do not know if any of the First Generation used that structure, as the only name we received was Haddek. 

Also, MaiPon uses the structure as well. 

I'm not about to go do a linguistic analysis to determine if it's JinDo or Kandra, but either way, it doesn't seem to suggest affiliation with Cultivation. Additionally, who's to say where this naming trend amongst the Kandra came from.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

[Sunlit Man]

Spoiler

The "mountain of souls" definitely sounds like the Evil:

Quote

"It's still there," he said. "On your homeworld. I’ve seen it. Well, the manifestations of it." Wild, unchained Investiture, come to life with its own alien will—forming mountain-sized figures with impossible, unnerving features and unknowable motivations. Threnody was not a place one visited to relax.

Quote

The planet is home to two separate continents. The larger of the two has been abandoned to something known as "the Evil," a force that even Nazh can speak of only in vague terms. A creeping darkness, a terrible force that consumed the entirety of the continent, feasting upon the souls of men. I do not know how much of this is metaphoric, and how much literal.

What if the reason shades don't form in the Homeland is because the Evil eats them all? In that case I think the Cazzi religion is more likely from "organic" Threnodite worldhoppers post-Ambition's Splintering than intentional Shardic seeding.

[Benkinsky they/them]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:32 PM, Treamayne said:

I did not mean that making maps was part of the Manifestatoins of Investiture - I only meant that as far as we know so far, Dominion is about National Identity, Governance, etc. . . Making maps is  (at least partly) an expression of identifying and codifying "this part is this country and that part is that country."

I see that. Mapping the world, exploring and giving names to everything, certainly aligns somewhat with Dominion. Man, now I'm remember the theory on Trell's Kandra being those creatures from Fjordell myth, that was such a cool theory.

 

On 2/19/2024 at 9:32 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What if the reason shades don't form in the Homeland is because the Evil eats them all?

Ohhh those are good quotes, thank you for finding those. I'll also add this one that @alder24 found:

On 2/16/2024 at 4:40 PM, alder24 said:

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

From what we've gathered, I can imagine something like this:

Whether by Ambitions design or just with how it developed, Threnodians are born with innate investiture similar to breath, just different. Ambition instead of Endowment. Regarding this difference, I'd imagine that rather than being "freely handed" their investiture, Ambition wants her humans to DO something with it. Just maybe not during life, necessarily. This investiture could become your Cognitive Shadow, and if you had good plans and aspirations, your cognitive shadow will be more inclined to do cool things after death. What that something that Ambition wants them to do is? No idea. [TSM:]

Spoiler

But with the Canticle-Shades we've seen one version of what an ambitious people with the help of their dead-but-not ancestors could be achieving. There is (or was) a lot more potential to Shades than just ScaryAAAhGhost

The primordial religion that later influences/becomes Cazzism forms around this. The passage into death becomes an important part of Threnodite culture. This post-death project is what the "mountain of souls" is either for, or is referred to as. Maybe the "Mountain of souls" is just the representation of afterlife, but also refers to an actual group/collection of Cognitive Shadows.

Now, there is one big problem: Ambition dies. Ripped apart, no mind to guide the power anymore, no singular power either. The Threnodites still get born with their "breath". Let's call it Light (which is funny, because you need Light to cast a shadow. Get it? Hehe). One chunk of Ambitions investiture gets imprinted with these beliefs, or merges with some shadows (see stormfather/Tanavast's CS), or SOMETHING else. That's not that unlikely, seeing how a widespread religion with a belief in an afterlife concept might very well manifest some version of that in the Cognitive Realm.

The plan is gone. Whatever the "mountain of souls" was supposed to achieve, it doesn't know that anymore. Uli Da did. But it either still remembers its directive OR gets that from the collective beliefs: Collect Cognitive Shadows. We've seen something very similar in Yuumi. The engineers behind the Father Machine are long dead, but it still does its job, fueling itself as it does: Collect spirits. (That's honestly so close that it almost discourages me from believing this theory, because it's so similar, but let's run with it.)

If Shades are the corrupted version of whatever Threnodites used to become before Ambitions death, that doesn't matter much for the mountain. It just collects. Amalgamates. More, and more, and more. For the project. For the project.

Honestly, the "mountain of souls" (or whatever that refers to) goes haywire after its boss gets killed and just amalgamates everything around it in both the physical and cognitive realm? That's evil. It could very well be The Evil.

On 2/19/2024 at 9:32 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In that case I think the Cazzi religion is more likely from "organic" Threnodite worldhoppers post-Ambition's Splintering than intentional Shardic seeding.

I'm going to be honest here, if something like that happened to me or my ancestors before we fled the planet and traveled somewhere else, I would also absolutely make sure my children and their children make sure to do the proper rites and rituals when someone dies. Whether you left pre-Evil and just believe that to be important, or post-Evil and are terrified of something like that happening again in your new home, you have good incentive to pass on your beliefs and practices. Sounds solid to me.

 

 

In an even crazier note, I also like that thought cause it could be another knot between Kelsier's story and Ambition/Threnody. There's already a lot of thoughts I have on that that I've written down in another post, so if you wanna, read that there

Edited March 14 by Benkinsky