Who can beat a shardbearer and keep their shards

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, Longshot97 said:

Awakeners

Suffer from a lack of bodily enhancements. Awakened material could easily be destroyed by a Shardblade, and it would take a lot of force to shatter Shardplate. This is where comparable levels of Investiture again plays a role. The God King, for example, easily outstrips any Shardbearer, and would emerge victorious without breaking a sweat.

Conclusion: How much Breath?

Simply Awaken Lifeless bugs that would climb onto the Shardbearer, through their eye slits and gouge out their eyes. Other bugs can crawl into their mouth, bite their neck to open their veins or even try to crack their gems, if equipped with diamond tipped mandibles. Sure, you sacrify dozens of Breaths but you have a force that can't be stopped. 

[Returned]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Sure, you sacrify dozens of Breaths but you have a force that can't be stopped. 

It doesn't even have to be that expensive. We see in an Adolin chapter that dedicated rope attacks to trip a Shardbearer are effective enough to be worth attempting. A self-moving rope could do the same, perhaps more effectively, even potentially dodging strikes from a Blade (though that sounds like a tricky Command). A strong enough material might even be able to crack the Plate.

But any Awakened object that can compress or shape itself to fit through the eye slit could potentially get inside the armor and kill or blind the Shardbearer, or possibly find and pry out the gemstones that power the armor. You could probably get most of the Breaths back afterwards in that case.

Edited February 20 by Returned

[Treamayne]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Simply Awaken Lifeless bugs that would climb onto the Shardbearer, through their eye slits and gouge out their eyes. Other bugs can crawl into their mouth, bite their neck to open their veins or even try to crack their gems, if equipped with diamond tipped mandibles. Sure, you sacrify dozens of Breaths but you have a force that can't be stopped. 

The Koreans have a proverb for that:

Spoiler

• Mogi bogo, Kal bbaegi
• 모기 보고 칼 빼기
• To see a mosquito and draw (summon) your sword
  • Used for somebody overreacting to a minor problem (not necessarily this case)

 

[Duxredux he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Simply Awaken Lifeless bugs that would climb onto the Shardbearer, through their eye slits and gouge out their eyes. Other bugs can crawl into their mouth, bite their neck to open their veins or even try to crack their gems, if equipped with diamond tipped mandibles. Sure, you sacrify dozens of Breaths but you have a force that can't be stopped. 

Nah, there's ways to deal with them. What you're describing basically is done naturally and more effectively by the Sleepless, and they were certainly scared of something coming to get the Dawnshard that they couldn't handle. Now granted, some of that fear may have been due to the Dawnshard's effect of protecting itself, but still. You're describing some complicated maneuvers for something that literally has the brains of a beetle. Now Vasher's squirrel showed surprising intelligence, but I'm not sure how far down the intellectual scale that goes. It could work.

There isn't much of a precedence for what you describe IRL because some more recent defenses developed for entomological warfare (yes, there's a term for insect based attacks) are simply things like the insect repellent DEET to deter a mosquito or hornet swarm from even attacking the target. Drone swarms that need communication and processing likely can be taken out with EMPs or simple EM emitters, neither of which would deter undead bugs. So I had to look elsewhere and science fiction nanodrones I think are closer to the concept and can be defended against via incendiary attacks. You need mass to dissipate heat effectively and the very nature of a swarm made of small constituents means that individuals will get to lethal temperatures quite quickly compared to someone wearing Plate. Some insects can survive wildfires, but they do so by flying away, going underground, or burrowing into wet, rotten wood that insulates them. An unprepared Shardbearer won't handle it well and will likely die, but if they have support staff, then oil can be dumped and ignited even in the most primitive Cosmere culture we've seen so far (barring something like the Simple Rules of Threnody complicating things). If further tech like a weaponized heating fabrial, F-Brass, Division, a flame thrower, etc. is available then while you likely can't ever fully kill a Sleepless as that requires killing every last hordeling, you can pretty well repel their attacks.

If anyone wants to explore defenses against the Awakened insect gambit or the more effective Sleepless, then we can spin up a thread titled "How to Stop a Sleepless Invasion" which may be relevant in later books.

Spoiler

Questioner

Will there be a major part in the story for the Sleepless?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but much later on.

Questioner

What means later on?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, they have a major role in the science fiction Mistborn trilogy, but that's pretty far off. So they will be very important very much later on.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

Edited February 20 by Duxredux
clarity

[Trusk'our he/him]

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Elantrians

Access to way more Investiture in the right circumstances, and even outside those circumstances (at least theoretically). Versatility is also a factor. Elantrians have no direct improvements to durability or strength, but this can be overcome.

Conclusion: Can and will mop the floor with Shardbearers. Bit of a glass cannon, but no contest really.

Yeah, I suppose that's true; just because you can learn computer programming doesn't mean you will, especially when you probably live in a magical city that provides most of what you need.

Also, Elantrians do receive a natural enhancement to speed, strength, and intelligence. The Prologue tells us this.

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Mistborn

Less overall Investiture, but access to highly dangerous flavors of it. Not nearly as much of a glass cannon, though little helps against a Shardblade.

Conclusion: Skill and environment depending, a Mistborn would at least pose a challenge.

Agreed; Mistborn are a lot less Invested overall, but their abilities are dangerous and versatile. Pewter, iron, steel, duralumin, and Bendalloy would go a long way in a fight, even against a full Shardbearer.

I'd still give the edge to a Shardbearer in a straight up fight though, as Plate is tough, and Shardblades will give the Shardbearer a sizable advantage in almost any melee encounter.

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Full Feruchemist

No directly offensive forms of Investiture. Against an opponent in strength-and-speed-boosting armor, as well as a sword that cuts through anything, I think Feruchemists would struggle. Maybe with enough Investiture, they could survive, but finding ways of winning would be a test of ingenuity.

Conclusion: Potential access to comparable levels of Investiture. At comparable levels, has a greater chance of victory. Otherwise, chances of survival are improved.

Eh, Full Feruchemists aren't very Investiture rich, not unless their Compounding.

However, like Mistborn, their powers are quite dangerous with enough preparation; strength, weight, health, and most importantly, physical speed, are going to be their main weapons, and with enough Stored ahead of time I could defiantly see a Feruchemist beating a Shardbearer, though I think they'd have to Store enough attributes to pull a victory that I doubt they'd win by default (except maybe when counting physical speed. That's just busted in general, and is their real key to any victory against a Shardbearer).

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Fullborn

No contest.

Conclusion: No.

Yup 

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Awakeners

Suffer from a lack of bodily enhancements. Awakened material could easily be destroyed by a Shardblade, and it would take a lot of force to shatter Shardplate. This is where comparable levels of Investiture again plays a role. The God King, for example, easily outstrips any Shardbearer, and would emerge victorious without breaking a sweat.

Conclusion: How much Breath?

Hmmm, I don't think that this is entirely accurate; Vasher uses Awakened clothing and ropes to increase his strength dramatically, which means you can get a lot of physical strength as an Awakener, albeit in a less conventional way.

Additionally, even if you don't have enough Breath to Awaken metal, you can still place stationary Breaths in it, which should at the very least make it resistant to Shardblades. A creative Awakener could use this to their advantage in a fight.

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Sand Masters

Hmm... Sand Masters don't technically have much Investiture. However, measuring the amount of Invested sand they have on hand, as well on their innate capacity for Sand Mastery, may suffice in this regard.

Conclusion: More raw power, more likely to survive. Skill obviously plays a role, but raw force is necessary to shatter Plate. However, the eyeslits do exist.

Sand Masters have easily replenishable sand tentacles that can stab through people. Despite their relatively low amount of Investiture, I'd think that their powerset would be one of the best to kill Shardbears. Just grapple them, pin them down, and stab through the eye slit or wriggle sand through any cracks in the armor to crush/stab them to death.

Or, barring that, throw big rocks at them with your sand ribbons till they die and evade their attempts to get close by using ribbons to escape.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Nah, there's ways to deal with them. What you're describing basically is done naturally and more effectively by the Sleepless

I'm not talking about Sleepless, as you know. There is a big difference between Sleepless and normal insects, one is multifunctionality (they have Larkin Hordlings, they can simply Leech Stormlight out of their plates), other is that Hordlings are both alive and quite large. Smaller, Earth-like insects would do the job far more effectively and unnoticeably until a Shardbearer sees them crawling into their eye slits. At this point it’s too late.

13 hours ago, Duxredux said:

You're describing some complicated maneuvers for something that literally has the brains of a beetle. Now Vasher's squirrel showed surprising intelligence, but I'm not sure how far down the intellectual scale that goes. It could work.

I'm not asking those insects to do something that they aren't already doing naturally, just find an opening (eye slit) and eat their eyes. Basically hunt their prey, which is defined by Awakener’s simple Commands. That is not very complicated, insects are capable of doing stuff like this. 

13 hours ago, Duxredux said:

You need mass to dissipate heat effectively and the very nature of a hivemind swarm means that individual insects will get to lethal temperatures quite quickly compared to someone wearing Plate.

They are dead, they don't generate heat, they are cold, warmth won't harm them at all. You would need to burn them. The same goes for any chemical bug repellants - they are dead, this won't work on them well. 

13 hours ago, Duxredux said:

If anyone wants to explore defenses against the Awakened insect gambit or the more effective Sleepless, then we can spin up a thread titled "How to Stop a Sleepless Invasion" which may be relevant in later books

Judging by Masaka's behavior I think Sleepless won't become an invasive species in the future. But overall you raised some good points how to deal with Sleepless, however this isn't really for this topic.

And you made me realize, a Sleepless could beat the crap out of a Shardbearer any time they want. 

 

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Additionally, even if you don't have enough Breath to Awaken metal, you can still place stationary Breaths in it, which should at the very least make it resistant to Shardblades. A creative Awakener could use this to their advantage in a fight.

That's a good one. How could I miss that?

[Duxredux he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not talking about Sleepless, as you know. There is a big difference between Sleepless and normal insects, one is multifunctionality (they have Larkin Hordlings, they can simply Leech Stormlight out of their plates), other is that Hordlings are both alive and quite large. Smaller, Earth-like insects would do the job far more effectively and unnoticeably until a Shardbearer sees them crawling into their eye slits. At this point it’s too late.

I'm not asking those insects to do something that they aren't already doing naturally, just find an opening (eye slit) and eat their eyes. Basically hunt their prey, which is defined by Awakener’s simple Commands. That is not very complicated, insects are capable of doing stuff like this. 

Sigh. Examples please? Maybe they have different insects in your part of the world, but I can't think of insects that naturally eat the eyes of living animals or preferentially bite the jugular. I'm no entomologist, but when you say hunt their prey, don't know of any insect that actively tries to kill and bring down medium or large mammals, they usually go with more parasitic approaches by living off of small bites of blood, laying internal eggs, etc. because if they keep it alive that's another meal tomorrow. Sure, flying stinging insects like wasps or bees have been known to take down larger mammals, but that's usually from the poison of hundreds and hundreds of insects, not by severing arteries or veins (also do insect venoms even work if they're Lifeless? I'm assuming they would decay and stop producing). Also... why is it too late once they get to the visor? How fast are you expecting insects small enough to crawl through a visor to chew to something fatal? Can't the Shardbearer, I don't know, take off their helmet and glove, step back and have a subordinate pick or brush off these bugs or do it themselves? I can't help but feel like if there were insects this well suited for quickly killing humans through biting alone I'd have heard about them by now. Now capitalizing on the distraction of sending and biting insects flying into their visor, increasing your odds of cracking a section of Plate by using Awakened ropes to lob boulders or getting a killing shot, now that I can get behind. I wouldn't leave the task just to the bugs.

Also, sure it would look dorky put over the helmet of a Shardbearer, but surely you've heard of mosquito netting? 

I'm still saying Sleepless will do it better and more cheaply than blowing dozens or hundreds of Breaths, and stealth may not be an issue. Need I remind you of Hoid's pen? Someone who is paranoid, has plenty of layers of enhanced senses, and was specifically watching for the Sleepless still got duped, and then you really can have a hordeling specifically designed to fit through a visor slot and slice someone's jugular. They also can send a swarm of hundreds or thousands of jumping, crawling, flying insects that will be much easier to replace than dozens of Breaths. Don't forget that Skybreaker who got killed by a Sleepless, apparently outpacing their ability to heal or fly away.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They are dead, they don't generate heat, they are cold, warmth won't harm them at all. You would need to burn them. The same goes for any chemical bug repellants - they are dead, this won't work on them well. 

Oh, English, you imprecise language. Sometimes I really wish that less of the world had adopted such a poorly designed language even though it really is convenient for me as an American. I apologize if I had more ambiguity than I intended, but what part of "incendiary attack", "dumping oil and igniting it", or "flamethrower" implied that I wasn't planning on burning these bugs? Also, do you mind helping me understand why lethal temperatures to an insect won't cause them to be nonfunctioning whether or not they are powered by carbohydrates or a Breath? I assume the proteins in their body and striated muscles denaturing due to heat will make them stop moving, possibly damaging the body enough that the Breath fails or they slow down until they pop. It's kind of why it's lethal in the first place. Their small scale means that they can't dissipate or use mammalian strategies like sweating, circulating blood, etc. to redistribute heat to survivable temperatures, so yes, a human can stand closer to a fire for much longer than a bug can. In fact, unless you have done a lot of Commanding, Lifeless insects won't even try to avoid it or survive it.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Sigh. Examples please? Maybe they have different insects in your part of the world, but I can't think of insects that naturally eat the eyes of living animals or preferentially bite the jugular. I'm no entomologist, but when you say hunt their prey, don't know of any insect that actively tries to kill and bring down medium or large mammals, they usually go with more parasitic approaches by living off of small bites of blood, laying internal eggs, etc.

The prey is defined by an Awakener - I said it very clearly. Insects naturally hunt and eat their prey, an Awakener defines what a prey is for Lifeless insects. Sure, naturally insects don't try to kill large mammals but some sure won't back down from attacking when needed - all kinds of spiders, or scorpions, ants, wasps, hornets will do that and mosquitoes even hunt mammals directly. Not to mention how many bugs there are that eat corpses. Use those who are naturally hunters, or have strong defensive mechanisms.

9 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

also do insect venoms even work if they're Lifeless? I'm assuming they would decay and stop producing

They won't produce it but you can either replace it with some other venom, or preserve the one they were using naturally. It will work.

10 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Also... why is it too late once they get to the visor? How fast are you expecting insects small enough to crawl through a visor to chew to something fatal?

Ok, tell me what will you do when insects are on your face? Take off your helmet?  You're dead, the Awakener will use it to just kill you with ropes or other Awakened objects. Use your massive gloves to pick up insects individually from your face? Too big hands, you're more likely to hurt yourself with this additional strength while you're panicking. Taking off your gloves takes even more time and exposes you even more. Use your Shardblade? Yeah, no. You can't stop them once they are inside your helmet without exposing yourself to the Awakener, and they are just waiting for you to do that. All you can do is feel them eating you alive, biting your eyes, crawling into your nose and mouth, biting your neck etc. How comfortable can you be when dozens of insects are crawling all over your skin, biting, chewing and trying to get into your eyes? 

16 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Can't the Shardbearer, I don't know, take off their helmet and glove, step back and have a subordinate pick or brush off these bugs or do it themselves?

What subordinates?? In the middle of the fight with an Awakener? Why do you say they have subordinates? Maybe an entire army as well to back them? It's a hypothetical scenario, a Shardbearer has his shards only and is fighting others ("What characters in the Cosmere can beat a full shardbearer with dead plate and dead blade without plate or blade?"). If a Shardbearer takes off their helmet and distract themselves with insects, the Awakener will kill them, the Awakener is just waiting for that opportunity. 

22 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I'm still saying Sleepless will do it better and more cheaply than blowing dozens or hundreds of Breaths, and stealth may not be an issue. Need I remind you of Hoid's pen? Someone who is paranoid, has plenty of layers of enhanced senses, and was specifically watching for the Sleepless still got duped, and then you really can have a hordeling specifically designed to fit through a visor slot and slice someone's jugular. They also can send a swarm of hundreds or thousands of jumping, crawling, flying insects that will be much easier to replace than dozens of Breaths. Don't forget that Skybreaker who got killed by a Sleepless, apparently outpacing their ability to heal or fly away.

I fully agree. They just need to send a couple of Larking Hordlings to suck off Stormlight from the plate. 

Spoiler

FirstRyder

Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

havoc_mayhem

Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection?

Brandon Sanderson

Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)

 

24 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Oh, English, you imprecise language. Sometimes I really wish that less of the world had adopted such a poorly designed language even though it really is convenient for me as an American. I apologize if I had more ambiguity than I intended, but what part of "incendiary attack", "dumping oil and igniting it", or "flamethrower" implied that I wasn't planning on burning these bugs?

Please, I think there is too much misunderstanding between us. Please look carefully at the specific quote I was responding to - this was not about your later incendiary attacks ideas, but ONLY to the idea of using warmth to kill insects, like how bees are killing wasps. That would not work. And yes, I clearly stated that I agree burning them will work, but a Shardbearer has no flamethrower.

30 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Also, do you mind helping me understand why lethal temperatures to an insect won't cause them to be nonfunctioning whether or not they are powered by carbohydrates or a Breath?

Because Lifeless are dead? Cells are already dead? They don't function anymore as they were when alive? No breathing, no heartbeat, No metabolism, no life. The effects of high or low temperatures would be greatly reduced on Lifeless. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's a good one. How could I miss that?

Thanks! 

[Duxredux he/him]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Please, I think there is too much misunderstanding between us.

Sigh. Looks what each of what we think is obvious isn't actually obvious. This isn't the right place to discuss it, but it feels like it's rather common for this kind of linguistic disconnect between you, me, @therunner, and/or @Treamayne (and Frustration, but he's on hiatus for a couple years) though not necessarily in equal measures, as we've filled thread after thread with super specific examples, debates, and if I remember right, at least one argument that came down to a translation error between the English and Polish versions of a book. I'm getting tired of it, and it doesn't look like any of us are going away in the near future. Any of you also feel like making a PM and figuring why our communication styles clash so often so the rest of 17th Shard doesn't have to watch us argue for their entertainment? Well, unless any of you enjoy competitive debate, because I don't. If no one wants to hash this out, then I hope no one is offended if I periodically just bow out of these debates.

Yeah, overall I think that we agree on Sleepless, I don't think we see eye-to-eye on what insects are optimized for, and I'm stumped at how you reload a wasp or spider via surgery, but we can agree that Awakened insects that try to bite eyes are at minimum a substantial distraction to add to an Awakener's arsenal.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ok, tell me what will you do when insects are on your face? Take off your helmet?  You're dead, the Awakener will use it to just kill you with ropes or other Awakened objects. Use your massive gloves to pick up insects individually from your face? Too big hands, you're more likely to hurt yourself with this additional strength while you're panicking. Taking off your gloves takes even more time and exposes you even more. Use your Shardblade? Yeah, no. You can't stop them once they are inside your helmet without exposing yourself to the Awakener, and they are just waiting for you to do that. All you can do is feel them eating you alive, biting your eyes, crawling into your nose and mouth, biting your neck etc. How comfortable can you be when dozens of insects are crawling all over your skin, biting, chewing and trying to get into your eyes? 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Also... why is it too late once they get to the visor? How fast are you expecting insects small enough to crawl through a visor to chew to something fatal? Can't the Shardbearer, I don't know, take off their helmet and glove, step back and have a subordinate pick or brush off these bugs or do it themselves?

Eyes nose mouth all gruesome things to think about. 

But I think @alder24 left out the worst one of them all.  The ear. 

I had a patient that we had to sedate to calm down enough to pull out a beetle one piece at a time from his ear. The pain was excruciating and the fear was paralyzing.  We pulled it out in 3 different pieces as once it had gotten back there it was stuck and the poor guy just had it trying to come out. It was pressed against, and even biting his eardrum.  

I laugh now, but my kid woke up screaming that something was in his ear one morning. I grabbed him and told my wife we needed to get to the ER asap. She, having a cooler head than me, poured some alcohol into his ear and out walked a tiny sugar ant. 

If I were fighting someone in plate and wanted them to take it off I would make the ears the first target. The insect doesn't have to have venom or be large at all. Once it gets into the ear canal and buzzes its wings or steps on that eardrum the helmet is coming off or the paralyzing horror is going to set in. 

I highly highly doubt anyone is going to continue fighting on once they have a tiny stinging / biting / flying ant inside their ear. 

As Alder pointed out once the helmet comes off and you are more focused on getting that thing out of your ear than your enemy, the rope dart will quickly finish you off. 

I actually think this would be one heck of a tactic against a radiant as well. Stormlight could heal the damage being dealt but it isn't going to get the insect out of that ear. You will have to intervene. And honestly I don't think the alcohol trick would work against an awakened ant either. Unless you use the incendiary method which would include starting a fire on your face and head. 

 

 

[Highprince10 he/him]

17 hours ago, Duxredux said:

If anyone wants to explore defenses against the Awakened insect gambit or the more effective Sleepless, then we can spin up a thread titled "How to Stop a Sleepless Invasion" which may be relevant in later books.

 

I think that would be something more relevant for later books to discuss can anyone really kill a sleepless? I also agree that awaken bugs would be a interesting tactic partly because no one would expect it.If a shardbearer had any experience they would be looking for rope traps of thrown boulders but not bugs. 

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Use your massive gloves to pick up insects individually from your face? Too big hands, you're more likely to hurt yourself with this additional strength while you're panicking

I think a practiced shardbearer could take the bugs off I mean Zahel has Renarin eat with normal utensils and we do hear how they can feel through the plate so I think they would be able to pick off bugs the question would be how many.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Highprince10 said:

I think that would be something more relevant for later books to discuss can anyone really kill a sleepless? I also agree that awaken bugs would be a interesting tactic partly because no one would expect it.If a shardbearer had any experience they would be looking for rope traps of thrown boulders but not bugs. 

That's what I also count on. I'm surprised that Awakeners doesn't breed some spiders and scorpions to use them as Lifeless when going on a mission, that would be extremely effective.

9 minutes ago, Highprince10 said:

I think a practiced shardbearer could take the bugs off I mean Zahel has Renarin eat with normal utensils and we do hear how they can feel through the plate so I think they would be able to pick off bugs the question would be how many.

Panic is a factor. That was under a control environment, not when you're panicking because bugs are eating your face when you're fighting an Awakener. Even if you manage to remain "calm," thick plated fingers could be unable to pick up small bugs on your face. Even if they would, that would take a lot of time, bugs would try to avoid you, get into your nose, mouth and eyes, it would be more and more painful and terrifying - all of that distracting you when an Awakener would simply kill you with other means.

 

Edit:

17 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Sigh. Looks what each of what we think is obvious isn't actually obvious. This isn't the right place to discuss it, but it feels like it's rather common for this kind of linguistic disconnect between you, me, @therunner, and/or @Treamayne (and Frustration, but he's on hiatus for a couple years) though not necessarily in equal measures, as we've filled thread after thread with super specific examples, debates, and if I remember right, at least one argument that came down to a translation error between the English and Polish versions of a book. I'm getting tired of it, and it doesn't look like any of us are going away in the near future. Any of you also feel like making a PM and figuring why our communication styles clash so often so the rest of 17th Shard doesn't have to watch us argue for their entertainment? Well, unless any of you enjoy competitive debate, because I don't. If no one wants to hash this out, then I hope no one is offended if I periodically just bow out of these debates.

Yeah, overall I think that we agree on Sleepless, I don't think we see eye-to-eye on what insects are optimized for, and I'm stumped at how you reload a wasp or spider via surgery, but we can agree that Awakened insects that try to bite eyes are at minimum a substantial distraction to add to an Awakener's arsenal.

Yes, it's better to agree to disagree than to keep arguing with unnecessary heat, especially if there might be a misunderstanding. I respect you a lot, I really enjoy your point of view on this forum, but I also enjoy engaging in a bit of competitive debates too, so I quickly responded in that way here too. My point was to just show that Awakened insects can be a nasty weapon in the Awakener's arsenal, they can pose a significant threat while being hard to detect and at the very minimum provide a distraction for Awakener's opponent and open them to Awakener for a killing blow.

Truthfully, this topic isn't a typical "versus thread," it's about exchanging ideas. I definitely became too defensive about this particular idea, for which I apologize. I'm also probably a bit biased against insects because they are the most terrifying creatures on this planet, spiders especially.

19 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I'm stumped at how you reload a wasp or spider via surgery

With a syringe  

 

25 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But I think @alder24 left out the worst one of them all.  The ear. 

This idea is terrifying for me in general, that's why I've missed this. It was fine as long as spiders weren't mentioned but now... Thanks for the nightmare fuel  

Eyes are probably the worst of them, because you see with them, you see those bugs eating you, while you can't see your opponent. Insects crawling into your throat is the second worst because it can cause suffocation. 

Edited February 21 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I'm also probably a bit biased against insects because they are the most terrifying creatures on this planet, spiders especially.

I second this thought. My wife laughed at me when we first got married because I would wear my mask to bed and roll up a pillowcase to wrap around my eyes and ears. Had all the holes covered and good fresh air to keep my lungs happy. 

I have since become much better about that fear... not wanting to look too foolish in front of the wife helps that. I still 100% seal off my CPAP mask when not in use though. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

This idea is terrifying for me in general, that's why I've missed this. It was fine as long as spiders weren't mentioned but now... Thanks for the nightmare fuel  

Eyes are probably the worst of them, because you see with them, you see those bugs eating you, while you can't see your opponent. Insects crawling into your throat is the second worst because it can cause suffocation. 

I guess it all depends on the size of the insects. I would say for maximum irritation and the least amount of risk to losing your breath bug the ears are a good bet. the eyes are going to water and the tears may make flight very difficult for smaller insects plus the batting of eyelids. Venom would certainly help to cause localized swelling quickly as well. I can imagine a bug in the eye would be as bad as sand in the eye or even worse. It would work wonders. 

The mucosa coating the nose and throat may mean a loss of the breaths as the insects might find it quite difficult to maneuver once coated in a thicker mucus / saliva. A single bug in the nose sends me into a frenzy... but that bug doesn't make it out without being crushed. Not saying a single bug in the trachea couldn't cause someone to choke... I know I have "choked on a bug" before and it usually involves a ton of violent caughing but again coughing is a great defense against this. That is high flowing bursts of air that the insect would be flying against and usually our sputum will catch it and we will expell it from the respiratory tract. 

Assuming each insect takes 1 breath to create I think I would stick with flying ants as they can sting and are highly mobile while also being among the smallest of options.  Aim for the ears, as I believe that recovering that investment would be a high priority and the ears offer, in my opinion, the best bet of recovering your investment as they are drier and the ear canal is shallower with less natural defenses. 

As you said nightmare fuel indeed. 

I remember an ant landing on my computer screen one morning at about 2am. I spun around and a colony was actively moving in. There were probably 150 flying ants in my living room and I immediately through the animals in crates and got into the car. Called my parents telling them I would be showing up around 4am and that I was going to war. I set off a couple too many bug bombs and was off. Nightmare fuel indeed. 

I actually think a jar of flying lifeless ants given some group command to fly into individual ears of the enemy would act as a pretty solid form of crowd control as well. I think they would be a heck of an option because they are small enough that it would be hard to identify them as a threat and they would cause enough panic and confusion once they started finding ear canals to infiltrate and soldiers started freaking out. Even if you don't have anything in your ear if one or two in your rank start flailing around and freaking out I think it would ruin whatever strategy you had built up. Especially scary because you wouldn't necessarily know what was happening right away. 

So I agree that the eyes, nose, throat, etc. are good targets. I just think there is an advantage to far smaller insects also. For the size and the location of the attack I think flying ants would offer a safer investment. Not just in that they are harder to see and harder to counter, but also that if you target ears you offer them a safer environment with less biological defenses and more likelihood of being able to be retrieved at the end. While still causing 99.9% of enemies to become instantly useless. Someone in this world could ignore buzzing, moving and stinging / biting of the eardrum... but I think the chances of a soldier / shard bearer being deaf and having no pain / touch sensation is really low. It would be excruciating and impossible to get out. You don't breathe or cough out of your ear. You don't have tears or eyelids to bat out of your ear. Once its in your ear it is staying there until it wants to come out. 

There is ear wax though. But I think the ants with wings could navigate that fairly well... even if they did get trapped they would bat their wings and buzz like crazy in a spot where you cant get to without close examination or some fluid to wash them out. 

Edit: Just to add more fuel to the nightmare... there is an alternate universe where the insects get soulcast to diamond or some other terribly hard substance before being awakened. 

 

Edited February 21 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Banazir864]

In addition to the different forms of Investiture, mundane weapons (or devices that parallel mundane weapons) could demolish a Shardbearer if they're advanced enough.  And if you're talking about sufficiently long-range weapons or, better still, aircraft (which could still count as one-on-one if they're single-person aircraft), the Shardbearer wouldn't even be able to fight back. 

Imagine, say, a real-life military drone flying in and attacking a Shardbearer.  Or, if you want to stick with tech we've already seen in the Cosmere, one of the Malwish flying a single-person airship and dropping bundles of dynamite. 

Sunlit Man spoilers:

Spoiler

Or the attack ships Nomad designs (which have two pilots but could be operated by one).

So the answer includes anyone with the right technology and the training to use it.

[therunner he/him]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:55 PM, alder24 said:

The eye slit was there because moments before that his horse was killed and water splashed into his face through that open eye slit. About the lightning, look at the quote again - the first lightning was directed at him and that blinded him, the second lightning was fired "nearby" from "another group of Parshendi'' when he was "looking down at his armor," which suggest it happened to the side of Adolin (he was leading the charge on Parshendi lines, he was at the very front of Alethi lines) - that means the lightning was visible to him through the translucent sides of his helmet, not the front, not through the eye slit directly.

Ah, thank you. Then I stand corrected on the eye slit.
Still, it is easy enough to cover with a forearm for example, bit of a handicap, however one that can be worth it to run down an opponent.

Quote

And that's what we're talking about, isn't it? About other people who can fight against a Shardbearer? So yes, a Pewterarm can do. There are others who have access to invested arts that could find a way to throw stuff with more strength than a normal human arm is capable of, thus that tactic is very valid to use. It's ever a standard tactic for normal people to use hammers against a Shardbearer - you don't need to be a Warform to do that.

Pewterarm can do in the sense that they will do better than a human, but Pewterarm would get absolutely stomped by Shardbearer.
Shardbearer can do everything Pewterarm can, but better (possibly sole exception of agility, however 'Thug' does not exactly imply they are known for their grace).

Don't forget that Deadplate survived minutes of Warform parshendi wailing on it with hammers and maces. It is rather sturdy.

Quote

Dead plates don't heal in combat. It takes a significant amount of time and Stormlight for a plate to heal. So big that after the Battle of the Tower Dalinar and Adolin had to use Stormlight that all of their 2653 men were carrying and that still wasn't enough to fully heal only one of their plates. Dead plates don't regenerate during a fight. WoK ch 69:

I doubt Deadplate does not heal at all in combat, in fact the one the first things mentioned about them is that they heal.
Sure, they won't heal large damage, however minor cracks from a slingshot would be healed in minutes I would expect.

On 2/20/2024 at 4:15 PM, Longshot97 said:

Which is fair. I mean, Plate and Blade are both metallic manifestations of Investiture---in other words, literal God Metals. They also require a source of Investiture as power. It's not unreasonable to have an opponent equipped with similar resources.

Yep, basically this. I broadly agree with your assessment, though I would put that Mistborn heavily depends on their surroundings. If there is little metal, they will have difficulty keeping Shardbearer away from them.

14 hours ago, Banazir864 said:

In addition to the different forms of Investiture, mundane weapons (or devices that parallel mundane weapons) could demolish a Shardbearer if they're advanced enough.  And if you're talking about sufficiently long-range weapons or, better still, aircraft (which could still count as one-on-one if they're single-person aircraft), the Shardbearer wouldn't even be able to fight back.

Advanced enough is the key word.
Aircraft is probably the only thing requiring a single operator that could reliably finish off Shardbearer.
Sniper rifle might break plate in one-two shots, but once Shardbearer is aware, they are too mobile to hit reliably.
Grenades or explosives might be useful, if only because of the eyeslit the pressure difference would do considerable damage to Shardbearer.

14 hours ago, Banazir864 said:

Imagine, say, a real-life military drone flying in and attacking a Shardbearer.  Or, if you want to stick with tech we've already seen in the Cosmere, one of the Malwish flying a single-person airship and dropping bundles of dynamite.

Those are might be too slow, and certainly not accurate enough to pose a threat to person sized target.

[alder24]

31 minutes ago, therunner said:

Pewterarm can do in the sense that they will do better than a human, but Pewterarm would get absolutely stomped by Shardbearer.

I agree, Mistings and Ferrings, even many Twinborns would not be able to win against a Shardbearer.

33 minutes ago, therunner said:

I doubt Deadplate does not heal at all in combat, in fact the one the first things mentioned about them is that they heal.
Sure, they won't heal large damage, however minor cracks from a slingshot would be healed in minutes I would expect.

No, not in the combat timescale. A dead plate was never shown to heal even minor cracks.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

42 minutes ago, therunner said:

Shardbearer can do everything Pewterarm can, but better (possibly sole exception of agility, however 'Thug' does not exactly imply they are known for their grace).

I may be misremembering but doesn't Vin specifically mention that she stops burning pewter to be more clumsy in one of her ball room scenes? 

From the coppermind:

Spoiler

Pewter also enhances the body's natural balance, granting almost unnaturally smooth movements. It also increases reaction speed and gives them resistance to hot and cold temperatures.

Also I like the mind over matter argument here. I think that we are just seeing the most basic uses of pewter in the books thus far. Perhaps as Scadrial starts to understand the importance of intent more pewterarms will become even more powerful. 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)

I'm not gonna say a pewter arm alone can take out a full shardbearer. But I also don't believe that shardplate is better in every way either. Pewterarms are wicked dangerous. One day we may see the allomantic power curve return to Lerasium strength and I think that would be tons of fun... we know that stacking spikes can do it. I believe that nicrosil feruchemy could do it. And now we have the harvesting of innate investiture on Scadrial as well which is going to have some really fun implications (perhaps the equivalent to heightenings on Nalthis allowing more instinctive uses of the metallic arts to show us more of what they can do).  

I would say a pewterarm with nicrosil feruchemy could be pretty dangerous to a shardbearer just in ramping up the strength of their pewter burn.

Even with just pewter alone I see a world where a shardbearer may find themselves caught off guard by a pewter arm in a fight. They really are a sleeper build... Sadly hampered by the dangers of being one shot by the 6 foot kill everything knife. 

Pewter alone can't get through the plate on their own and they can't heal through the damage. 

Pewter with a wide variety of supplemental powers would give the fire power and agility to eventually break through the plate and avoid the one shot. 

Heck even if it was a pewter arm with a shardblade against a full shardbearer I think I would bet on the pewterarm.  Their reaction speed is faster and they are moving more agily. Shardplate may make someone faster but I think something happens in the mind of the pewterarm as well that allows them to have near perfect balance and move the way they do.  I subscribe to the idea that it also boosts proprioception which is a boon that plate doesn't provide. 

 

[Returned]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

however 'Thug' does not exactly imply they are known for their grace).

Pewterarms specifically are, though most pewter mistings lean hard into the strength aspect of the metal by bulking up. Ham talks about this explicitly as a choice many make (and a foolish one). Pewter enhances strength, durability, speed, dexterity, endurance, balance, and poise. The last two are what we would probably be talking about when we mention grace. I don't think there is a single, named pewter-burner in Mistborn who doesn't make excellent use of the enhanced grace of pewter, but I also don't think that there is a single nameless pewter Misting who does. So maybe we should qualify pewter Misting a bit to indicate a person who already can make good use of those aspects of pewter. It's easy to focus on the magic of Allomancy and not pay as much attention to the fact that it enhances the user, and pay less attention to the user's actual abilities and traits.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I doubt Deadplate does not heal at all in combat, in fact the one the first things mentioned about them is that they heal.
Sure, they won't heal large damage, however minor cracks from a slingshot would be healed in minutes I would expect.

The issue is that dead Plate heals by drawing extra Stormlight from the gems that power it. The Plate is already almost entirely dependent on the Stormlight fueling it to function, so forcing it to consume its fuel more quickly to fix cracks is almost as much of a problem as damaging sections enough to break them. Once the Plate is drained it becomes a liability because it stops the wearer from doing much of anything, and it's a progressive problem until then (it becomes sluggish when the Stormlight reserves get low enough). That's the biggest element of Adolin's full disadvantaged duel.

That's where I think that a pewter Misting has an opportunity. I still might not bet on one to beat a Shardbearer but their enhanced mobility gives them the opportunity to avoid being hit, their enhanced strength gives them an opportunity to damage Plate by throwing things or hitting it with a melee weapon (or similar), and they don't need to overwhelm the Plate at its peak power. They just need to outlast its Stormlight reserves, speeding up its loss with opportunistic strikes, until the Plate becomes slow enough that the Misting's extra mobility becomes dominant. Once the Plate locks up, the fight is over. Pewterarm vs. Shardbearer isn't an overwhelming force contest, it's an endurance contest, and with a skilled Misting that has a decent pewter reserve the contest isn't a foregone conclusion. I'd still hate to be the Misting forced into that situation though-- even if they can win it's still a difficult and incredibly dangerous scenario for them.

[Highprince10 he/him]

10 minutes ago, Returned said:

The issue is that dead Plate heals by drawing extra Stormlight from the gems that power it. The Plate is already almost entirely dependent on the Stormlight fueling it to function, so forcing it to consume its fuel more quickly to fix cracks is almost as much of a problem as damaging sections enough to break them. Once the Plate is drained it becomes a liability because it stops the wearer from doing much of anything, and it's a progressive problem until then (it becomes sluggish when the Stormlight reserves get low enough). That's the biggest element of Adolin's full disadvantaged duel.

 

I don't think plate would drain as fast as you think while Adolin did lose stormlight fast in his duel tat was fighting 4 shardbearers but when Adolin fights Elit Ruthar it takes about an hour to drain Elit's plate so you have to have a lot of big cracks in the armor for it to drain at any real pace. I don't think 2 or 3 good blows on a shardbearer will drain the plate fast enough for it to be a big concern for them.

[Returned]

12 minutes ago, Highprince10 said:

I don't think plate would drain as fast as you think while Adolin did lose stormlight fast in his duel tat was fighting 4 shardbearers but when Adolin fights Elit Ruthar it takes about an hour to drain Elit's plate so you have to have a lot of big cracks in the armor for it to drain at any real pace. I don't think 2 or 3 good blows on a shardbearer will drain the plate fast enough for it to be a big concern for them.

In the duel with Ruthar, Adolin was specifically damaging the Plate in a way that would be slow, distributed across different sections of the armor, and hard to notice overtly, especially avoiding blows that would cause it to break. He wanted to humiliate Ruthar by dragging the fight out in a boring way and showing his contempt for his opponent; it was death by a thousand cuts while showing that Ruthar couldn't touch him. It was a particular circumstance and a particular approach meant to be slow, so I don't think that it's a good measure of the rate of Stormlight loss for Plate generally.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting that the Plate would lose Stormlight at any particular rate, only that it has a weakness related to its supply of fuel and so a strategy for beating it doesn't need to rely on shattering it directly and immediately. I  don't see any reason to think that a pewterarm could only land 2-3 good blows, nor why they couldn't drag the fight out as long as it took for the Stormlight to be consumed or lost (provided they had enough pewter, which is obviously an important consideration).

Draining Stormlight is clearly a viable tactic when dealing with Plate in at least some circumstances (Alethi soldiers and Singers know about it), if not an ideal one, and it might be the best one available to a pewterarm. The focus on "a pewter Misting can't necessarily shatter a section of Plate very easily" may or may not be true, but doesn't cover the whole array of options available to them, and to the extent that it is true it's obviously not a good strategy to pursue and so not one that a successful combatant would use. It's a reason the fight would be harder for the Misting than for other Invested people but not a reason they would necessarily lose.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

55 minutes ago, Returned said:

In the duel with Ruthar, Adolin was specifically damaging the Plate in a way that would be slow, distributed across different sections of the armor, and hard to notice overtly, especially avoiding blows that would cause it to break. He wanted to humiliate Ruthar by dragging the fight out in a boring way and showing his contempt for his opponent; it was death by a thousand cuts while showing that Ruthar couldn't touch him. It was a particular circumstance and a particular approach meant to be slow, so I don't think that it's a good measure of the rate of Stormlight loss for Plate generally.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting that the Plate would lose Stormlight at any particular rate, only that it has a weakness related to its supply of fuel and so a strategy for beating it doesn't need to rely on shattering it directly and immediately. I  don't see any reason to think that a pewterarm could only land 2-3 good blows, nor why they couldn't drag the fight out as long as it took for the Stormlight to be consumed or lost (provided they had enough pewter, which is obviously an important consideration).

Draining Stormlight is clearly a viable tactic when dealing with Plate in at least some circumstances (Alethi soldiers and Singers know about it), if not an ideal one, and it might be the best one available to a pewterarm. The focus on "a pewter Misting can't necessarily shatter a section of Plate very easily" may or may not be true, but doesn't cover the whole array of options available to them, and to the extent that it is true it's obviously not a good strategy to pursue and so not one that a successful combatant would use. It's a reason the fight would be harder for the Misting than for other Invested people but not a reason they would necessarily lose.

Beyond that I would employ the muay thai leg attacks. 

Plate doesn't remove fatigue from the shardbearer. If you damage the legs first they will slow down to a speed that is beyond manageable for the pewter arm. 

We know pewterarms can drag for days so long as they have the pewter for it. Fighting someone with highly enhanced speed, strength, endurance, reflexes as well as perfect balance would be a nightmare if they damaged your legs early on. Flare that pewter until the legs are damaged and the shardbearers mobility is lower than a normal burn rate and just avoid them. 

Its kind of a lame way to fight but any sort of vs games end in lame fights. 

And the cosmere isn't above lame fights. Adolin broke the rules in every fight. One he just brutally smashed the opponent which was frowned upon. The next he chose to painfully slowly drain his opponents plate.  

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Beyond that I would employ the muay thai leg attacks. 

Plate doesn't remove fatigue from the shardbearer. If you damage the legs first they will slow down to a speed that is beyond manageable for the pewter arm. 

We know pewterarms can drag for days so long as they have the pewter for it. Fighting someone with highly enhanced speed, strength, endurance, reflexes as well as perfect balance would be a nightmare if they damaged your legs early on. Flare that pewter until the legs are damaged and the shardbearers mobility is lower than a normal burn rate and just avoid them. 

That's actually a very good tactic - just break leg segments. It may be enough to break just one segment and the plate below it would have to be dropped as it's no longer powered by Stormlight and is just a dead weight. It may be even too hard for a Shardbearer to hold the entire weight of the plate on just one leg. I think there was a situation like this in books somewhere, I don't remember how it ended and I don't have time to search for it now. Either way breaking leg segments is a very good way to severely hinder Shardbearer’s mobility. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That's actually a very good tactic - just break leg segments. It may be enough to break just one segment and the plate below it would have to be dropped as it's no longer powered by Stormlight and is just a dead weight. It may be even too hard for a Shardbearer to hold the entire weight of the plate on just one leg. I think there was a situation like this in books somewhere, I don't remember how it ended and I don't have time to search for it now. Either way breaking leg segments is a very good way to severely hinder Shardbearer’s mobility. 

Considering plate weighs like 1200lbs or whatever I agree. A single broken leg would do far more in a fight that you expect to last a while than cracking the breastplate. 

Give a pewterarm a dead blade and I would bet on them in more arena fights than I would be against them for sure.  

[Colors]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:15 AM, Longshot97 said:

Which is fair. I mean, Plate and Blade are both metallic manifestations of Investiture---in other words, literal God Metals. They also require a source of Investiture as power. It's not unreasonable to have an opponent equipped with similar resources.

I wonder if an easy way to view these sort of "Who Would Win" scenarios is relative access to Investiture. Let's explore that.

Shardplate and Shardblade

Just a metric ton of metallic Investiture, famously enough to resist Allomantic influence. The presence of gemstones infused with gaseous Investiture also helps their case.

So, who would have access to comparable levels of Investiture, and would they be a good match?

Elantrians

Access to way more Investiture in the right circumstances, and even outside those circumstances (at least theoretically). Versatility is also a factor. Elantrians have no direct improvements to durability or strength, but this can be overcome.

Conclusion: Can and will mop the floor with Shardbearers. Bit of a glass cannon, but no contest really.

Mistborn

Less overall Investiture, but access to highly dangerous flavors of it. Not nearly as much of a glass cannon, though little helps against a Shardblade.

Conclusion: Skill and environment depending, a Mistborn would at least pose a challenge.

Full Feruchemist

No directly offensive forms of Investiture. Against an opponent in strength-and-speed-boosting armor, as well as a sword that cuts through anything, I think Feruchemists would struggle. Maybe with enough Investiture, they could survive, but finding ways of winning would be a test of ingenuity.

Conclusion: Potential access to comparable levels of Investiture. At comparable levels, has a greater chance of victory. Otherwise, chances of survival are improved.

Fullborn

No contest.

Conclusion: No.

Awakeners

Suffer from a lack of bodily enhancements. Awakened material could easily be destroyed by a Shardblade, and it would take a lot of force to shatter Shardplate. This is where comparable levels of Investiture again plays a role. The God King, for example, easily outstrips any Shardbearer, and would emerge victorious without breaking a sweat.

Conclusion: How much Breath?

Sand Masters

Hmm... Sand Masters don't technically have much Investiture. However, measuring the amount of Invested sand they have on hand, as well on their innate capacity for Sand Mastery, may suffice in this regard.

Conclusion: More raw power, more likely to survive. Skill obviously plays a role, but raw force is necessary to shatter Plate. However, the eyeslits do exist.

To me Feruchemist is going to come down to how much of different attributes they have stored up. They aren't going to be storing anything in the moment, but if they have a healthy store of F-steel, F-gold, F-Iron, and F-Pewter I think they could make VERY quick work of a Shardbearer. Tapping strength and then using speed and weight to amplify their blows would smash right through plate and then just tap gold to heal any self-inflicted injuries. Shadplate cracks fairly easily to blunt force in the grand scheme of things. Someone manipulating F-steel and F-iron would become a human wrecking ball. 

Edited February 22 by Colors