Is radiant healing more powerful than gold compounding?

[Beodrakis he/him]

I feel stupid even asking but my friend thinks it's pertinent.

the radiant has as much stormlight as they need, and the G-compounder has enough health stored up. 

Physical damage only, who heals first?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

I dont know that we have any real evidence we can use to make a determination, but my gut tells me that Radiant healing is better than gold compounding. I think the actual healing effect is going to be the same (as in the magic heals the same way), but healing from stormlight rather than accrued health is way more advantageous. 

 

What I mean by that is its easier to take out the gold compounder because their metalmind can be removed, whereas a Radiant can absorb stormlight from at least a short distance. However, to truly answer your question I would say they are exactly the same. With a theoretical infinite amount of investiture, I think the Radiant and Feruchemist would heal at the same rate. 

[Duxredux he/him]

It's going to be a tradeoff. Feruchemy could heal faster, but that's because it has a built-in system to compress the Investiture to get a bigger effect at a less efficient rate.  That's Feruchemy's thing, if you're willing to consume more attribute you can get to ludicrous levels, the limiting factor being safety with heat, weight, or speed as tapping at too high of a rate can be lethal. For example, Steel compounders can't run infinitely fast not because they can't compress the attribute that much but because they would burn up due to air resistance (and yeah, they can't run faster than light due to all object's constraints relating to FTL, because I know someone will mention it, but you get the idea). This probably isn't a limitation for stored health. Drop a Gold Compounder with internal metals and a Radiant who swallowed some spheres into the sun, and maybe the Gold Compounder could survive marginally longer considering it takes measurable time for Kaladin to heal a severed spine. Who knows, if Wayne had cashed out his fortune in gold and somehow had it on him, maybe he could have survived the biggest explosion known to Scadrial as a brand new Gold Compounder.

Otherwise, in nearly every other respect, Radiant healing is good enough for most scenarios except for the extreme. Stormlight is literally part of the meteorological cycle and comes with every Highstorm and is waaay cheaper and more prevalent than gold. Most Radiants could run down the street in a lot of towns or cities and be able to scavenge Stormlight on the go... which is less of an option for gold. Raw Stormlight is just so much more power than is generally available to a Feruchemist that it would probably take weeks, months, or years for Wayne to store up an equivalent amount of Investiture that Kaladin carries in his sphere pouch to be recharged at the next Highstorm.

Edited March 7 by Duxredux

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Beodrakis said:

I feel stupid even asking but my friend thinks it's pertinent.

the radiant has as much stormlight as they need, and the G-compounder has enough health stored up. 

Physical damage only, who heals first?

I think they are pretty much comparable. We saw Shallan getting shot in the face with a bolt and still "functioning," we see Miles getting shot in his head and not even flinching. Miles was healing his cracked bones as they were cracking. Miles can't even feel pain anymore. But Miles has a little advantage over Stormlight healing, he is not just a gold compounder, he is also a Savant. But non-Savant compounders should be on the same level of healing as efficient Radiant healing. 

[Quantus he/him]

Gold Healing seems a little more consciously pliable than Radiant Healing, since it can be directed it to heal specific ailments and injuries while leaving others untouched, and I dont think we've seen a Radiant manipulate their healing to that extent (unless Im forgetting examples of it?).  Radiant Healing scales heavily to the strength and progression of the Bond, while Gold scales heavily to Burn Rates and Flaring; again they are comparable in absolute strength and capability but Gold offers more conscious control.   

Once they've implanted Goldminds like Miles I think removing Stormlight vs Metalminds are roughly a wash in difficulty, Stormlight's inherently leaky nature aside. I think the rest of the decisive factors would be more environmental in the relative availability of Gold metal vs Stormlight.

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Gold Healing seems a little more consciously pliable than Radiant Healing, since it can be directed it to heal specific ailments and injuries while leaving others untouched, and I dont think we've seen a Radiant manipulate their healing to that extent (unless Im forgetting examples of it?).

I think Kaladin at one point mentioned something about not healing a Shardblade cut because it would consume too much Stormlight. So maybe with the right intent they would be able to do that too. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think Kaladin at one point mentioned something about not healing a Shardblade cut because it would consume too much Stormlight. So maybe with the right intent they would be able to do that too. 

Yeah, in WoR he had to consciously "push" to heal the spiritual damage, so at least for Spiritweb damage you must consciously choose to heal.

I wonder if this is because that brand of healing uses the Spiritual Aspect as a blueprint for healing. So maybe when that's compromised you must rely on the Cognitive Aspect to provide the blueprints. 

Wasn't there a WoB that said that the more Invested you were the more your Cognitive Aspect came into play when using Investiture to heal?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Gold Healing seems a little more consciously pliable than Radiant Healing, since it can be directed it to heal specific ailments and injuries while leaving others untouched, and I dont think we've seen a Radiant manipulate their healing to that extent (unless Im forgetting examples of it?).  Radiant Healing scales heavily to the strength and progression of the Bond, while Gold scales heavily to Burn Rates and Flaring; again they are comparable in absolute strength and capability but Gold offers more conscious control.   

I can't remember where exactly, but I feel like there was a time where Kaladin's Stormlight ran out, healing his most severe injuries, but leaving the lesser ones present. This is also how Wayne's health works; it automatically targets the most serious damage, leaving lesser injuries alone until the really bad stuff has been taken care of. 

3 hours ago, Beodrakis said:

I feel stupid even asking but my friend thinks it's pertinent.

the radiant has as much stormlight as they need, and the G-compounder has enough health stored up. 

Physical damage only, who heals first?

In terms of Invested healing efficiency, I don't know how to compare Feruchemy to Surgebinding, but I do know that Surgebinding gets more efficient as they scale in oaths.

Stormlight is much, much easier to get ahold of than gold or shoring up health the old fashioned way, but it is at the disadvantage of leaking while Goldminds don't. 

You can also get Goldmind implants to keep them safe, which may put them at an advantage compared to Stormlight gemstones, as they can be stolen or broken more easily. 

And then of course there's also the fact that Feruchemy can compress itself to work faster, as @Duxreduxsaid.

Lastly, a gold Compounder has the ability to become a Savant much more easily than a Surgebinder, with all the pros and cons associated. 

All in all, it's a tradeoff; a Surgebinder has cheapness and ease of access to Investiture, and they get more efficient as they progress in their oaths. A gold Compounder has ease of storage, rate over efficiency advantage, and can more easily harness Savantism.

[Returned]

Assuming sufficient Stormlight I think that Radiant healing may come out ahead, at least for Truthwatchers (I believe that they are particularly good at it?). We see Shallan and Miles both survive severe brain injury (presumably), which is pretty impressive. But we see Renarin get utterly crushed by a Thunderclast and pop back onto his feet immediately. We don't exactly know how severe Renarin's injuries were, but if a Truthwatcher person could potentially be crushed into goo and then be back in action within seconds... I don't know that even compounded gold could do that.

I'd hate to find out personally either way. It sounds like an unpleasant experiment on oneself, and terrible to discover in an opponent.

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Returned said:

Assuming sufficient Stormlight I think that Radiant healing may come out ahead, at least for Truthwatchers (I believe that they are particularly good at it?). We see Shallan and Miles both survive severe brain injury (presumably), which is pretty impressive. But we see Renarin get utterly crushed by a Thunderclast and pop back onto his feet immediately. We don't exactly know how severe Renarin's injuries were, but if a Truthwatcher person could potentially be crushed into goo and then be back in action within seconds... I don't know that even compounded gold could do that.

I'd hate to find out personally either way. It sounds like an unpleasant experiment on oneself, and terrible to discover in an opponent.

Goo? Definitely not. It seems like Renarin wasn't really crushed because he cut Thunderclust's palm as he was being crushed, so he had to be able to move his upper body, so at least that part of his wasn't crushed. I think Renarin's feat is comparable to Miles instantly healing bones as they break - he has improved healing comparable to a gold Savant healing, which in my opinion is quite reasonable and still very impressive. I believe that's the upper level of healing that one can achieve without Shard's direct involvement. OB ch 120:

Quote

The thunderclast’s palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother’s Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist.
The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn’t even a bother.

AoL ch 15:

Quote

On a whim, he took hold of the banister and swung over, dropping to the floor some twenty feet below. For a brief moment, he knew that sense of freedom. Then he hit. One of his legs tried to break—he recognized the slight pop. But the bone’s fractures reknit as quickly as they broke, and so it never fully snapped, cracks opening on one side but resealing on the other

 

Edited March 7 by alder24

[Returned]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Goo? Definitely not. It seems like Renarin wasn't really crushed because he cut Thunderclust's palm as he was being crushed, so he had to be able to move his upper body, so at least that part of his wasn't crushed.

In my visualization of the event Renarin's Shardblade was pointed upwards as the Thunderclast's palm slammed down, leading to it spearing through the hand, but the quote you provided is decisive as the blade moved and then cut the hand off at the wrist. Too bad, I liked the image of Renarin's body springing out of a pile of goo like a dolphin leaping out of the water 

Regardless, healing a most-of-body-crushing in an instant is radically more impressive than Miles' one leg healing even as it broke from a ~20 foot fall. I am nevertheless convinced that you are correct here though, as we know that Miles' healing abilities outclass Wayne's and we see Wayne heal from an injury probably on par with Renarin's when he does the Spoiled Tomato. It's a rough comparison but I think it's a safe bet that Miles could have healed from that in seconds, at worst, and the degree of injury described is probably similar to being squashed by a giant rock.

**Edited to add:**

I can't believe this didn't occur to me earlier, but didn't we see Miles set off a stick of dynamite essentially in his hand, then get up and walk away immediately after? That's as close to goo-ification as it gets, and we've never seen a Radiant recover from anything like that.

Edited March 8 by Returned

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Beodrakis said:

Physical damage only, who heals first?

Gold compounder heals faster (or, at least faster than a Second Oath Radiant) - both heal fully, similar mechanic.

Spoiler

Kaladin takes minutes to heal his legs and feet in WoR Ch 57 affter using all of his stormlight to kick Relis. 

Miles heals blowing himself up with dynamite in his hand in less time in AoL Ch 18

Really, no matter how efficient your Stormlight consumption and use, the fact that a Double Gold can Compress Feruchemical traits means they can heal faster if they want to and have enough health to compress. 

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Returned said:

Regardless, healing a most-of-body-crushing in an instant is radically more impressive than Miles' one leg healing even as it broke from a ~20 foot fall.

I'm sure Miles would heal his entire body in the same way, if it was crushed like Renarin was. Not to mention Miles blew himself up with a dynamite and came out unscratched - again, they are both comparable in my opinion. 

15 hours ago, Returned said:

I am nevertheless convinced that you are correct here though, as we know that Miles' healing abilities outclass Wayne's and we see Wayne heal from an injury probably on par with Renarin's when he does the Spoiled Tomato.

Somewhat comparable, but that took Wayne several painful moments, his legs were broken, his spine too, he couldn't see - it took a relatively long time for him to heal. BoM ch 

Quote

He hit. [...]
He mitigated this by hitting feet-first—his legs both snapped immediately —then twisted onto his side, breaking his shoulder, but dampening some of the sound by rolling with the impact. He tapped his fancy new metalmind right before his head smacked the ground, dazing him.
He ended up in a crumpled, broken heap beside a pile of rocks. Of course Wax would have sent him into a pile of rocks. As his vision cleared, he tried to glance at his legs, but he couldn’t move. Couldn’t feel anything, actually, which was quite pleasant. It was always nice when you snapped the spine— helped with the pain. [...]
Sensation—and agony —flooded back into him as his metalmind healed his spine, focusing on the worst wounds first. [...]
As soon as he could move—even while his legs were healing—he twisted and used his good arm to position one of the large rocks in the pile. Looked like these stones were here intended for shoring up the sides of the stream, perhaps to make a pathway across. Wayne put them to good use, reaching up with his other hand as his shoulder healed. [...]
Wayne stumbled to his feet, dragging Wax’s gun, his leg twisting about and bones reknitting.

 

15 hours ago, Returned said:

I can't believe this didn't occur to me earlier, but didn't we see Miles set off a stick of dynamite essentially in his hand, then get up and walk away immediately after? That's as close to goo-ification as it gets, and we've never seen a Radiant recover from anything like that.

I was just writing that while reading your post - yes, that's probably even closer to what Renarin did. Miles lost his clothes, Wax barely escaped, was thrown by the explosion, bloodied, numb and almost deaf. AoL ch 18:

Quote

Miles looked up at him, growing calm. Then he reached into his pocket, got out his cigar case, and pulled a small, slender stick of dynamite from it.
Waxillium froze. He felt an awful moment of realization, followed by a jolt of terror.
Aw, hell! He threw himself past Miles and out of the railcar. The awkward leap left him spinning in the air. He had a brief glance of Miles yanking at the dynamite’s blasting cap. The man was enveloped in a bright, powerful blast.
The explosion hurled Waxillium forward like a leaf before the wind. He smashed to the ground, and his vision flashed. He lost a few moments.
He came to, bloodied, dazed, rolling to a stop. His head swam. He was unable to move or even think, his heart thumping in his chest.
A figure stood up in the railcar. Waxillium’s vision was too blurry to make out much, but he knew it was Miles. His clothing had been shredded, much of it blown off his body, but he was whole. He’d set off dynamite in his hand in order to free himself from the nets. [...]
Rust and Ruin … Waxillium thought, coughing. How badly was he hurt? He rolled over, numb. That wasn’t a good sign.
“Is there any doubt that I have been chosen for something great?” Miles bellowed. Waxillium could barely hear it; his ears were nearly useless after that blast.

 

Edited March 8 by alder24

[One of the Ten Fools he/him]

I find it strange that no one has talked about the lord ruler yet. In the first book the crew talks about some old stories of the Lord Ruler in the early days of his rule were he walked out of a building that was on fire. In the story it says that he was practically a skeleton and he was able to heal for that. There is another story that they talk about where some people that were rebelling, and they stabbed him with a lot of spears and he just walked around with the spears in him.  

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, One of the Ten Fools said:

I find it strange that no one has talked about the lord ruler yet. In the first book the crew talks about some old stories of the Lord Ruler in the early days of his rule were he walked out of a building that was on fire. In the story it says that he was practically a skeleton and he was able to heal for that. There is another story that they talk about where some people that were rebelling, and they stabbed him with a lot of spears and he just walked around with the spears in him.  

It's because we don't know which story is true and which is a lie/exaggeration. We can't take his words for a fact:

Spoiler

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

TWG Posts (April 9, 2008)

 

[+hwiles]

Who heals first?  Arguably the Radiant in my opinion.  Why?  Because the function of Investiture-based healing in the Cosmere is to restore the body to match its corresponding aspects reflected in the magic-user's spirit web and...love them or hate them, Radiants famously have the most damaged and shredded souls in the universe thus far; if memory serves, I believe there is a tenant in Mormonism that the cracks in a believer's soul are what lets God's light in and this principle seems to be literally and functionally applicable in many of Sanderson's writings in the sense that, those who have suffered greatly, learned from it, and grown are generally capable of more extreme feats.  So...I would opine that a Radiant who had sworn through all of their oaths would be more open to the influx of Investiture needed for restoration than a gold compounder who had merely gone through Harmony's soft-gloved snapping process, and therefore capable of greater levels of compression and acceleration if provided with a limitless source.

 

Who can heal the most?  Again, I would say the Radiant has the upper hand in terms of reaching an extreme upper bound.  A 5th-ideal Skybreaker flying in the heart of a Highstorm has access to functionally infinite healing capacity without really having to do anything else.  A gold compounder would need to swallow, burn, and store an entire planet's worth of gold to achieve this same capacity and, since metal minds do not have infinite storage, they almost certainly wouldn't be able to actually carry that power with them due to the physical mass of it and would have to render themselves immobile and vulnerable to capture and physical restraint in order to replicate the Radiant's feat.

 

Radiants are...Broken...in many senses of the word.  This isn't a bad thing, it is just a thing.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:52 AM, hwiles said:

Who heals first?  Arguably the Radiant in my opinion.  Why?  Because the function of Investiture-based healing in the Cosmere is to restore the body to match its corresponding aspects reflected in the magic-user's spirit web and...love them or hate them, Radiants famously have the most damaged and shredded souls in the universe thus far;

Actually, no, that goes to Hemalurgists, who have far bigger fissures in the Spiritweb made by their Hemalurgic spikes- big enough that things like Shards and powerful Emotional Allomancy can seep in and take control of them.

On 3/8/2024 at 11:52 AM, hwiles said:

if memory serves, I believe there is a tenant in Mormonism that the cracks in a believer's soul are what lets God's light in and this principle seems to be literally and functionally applicable in many of Sanderson's writings in the sense that, those who have suffered greatly, learned from it, and grown are generally capable of more extreme feats.

Do you mean our saying of needing a broken heart and a contrite spirit in order to repent? It's pretty similar; mostly, it means that we must recognize when we've done wrong (sinned) and we must feel real sorrow for it. Then, we must turn to God and choose to repent, to change and become better as a person.