Can a kandra fake fingerprints?

[Mason Wheeler]

Has anyone asked Brandon this?  "Will the eventual development of fingerprinting technology make it harder for kandra to impersonate somebody?"

Unlike facial features, fingerprints cannot be inferred from bones, nor even from DNA.  (We know this because identical twins have distinct fingerprints.)  So unless a kandra gets a person's body while it's still fresh, and knows exactly what to look for, you'd expect that they'd have no idea how to recreate authentic fingerprints.

[Aredor]

I'd expect that at that point they would be aware enough of the technology that they would be able to randomly generate their fingerprints. 

If they couldn't, though, that would be an interesting limitation for them.

[Quantus he/him]

We just dont know yet, and the most recent WOB I can find makes it sound like he hasnt decided yet (for Doylist reasons).  So far he's confirmed that they dont copy the Spirit directly, but that doesnt discount a biological method.  If he decides that Kandra can copy DNA, then they can presumably copy Fingerprints and retina patterns too.  Or it can be any of the lesser tiers, for example maybe they'll end up able to tactically copy fingerprints but not retina and other internal vascular structures, or maybe anything physical/structural but not actual DNA.   

 

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Questioner

Can a kandra have a human kid, if they're in a--

Brandon Sanderson

...So, their DNA would-- I've answered this both ways, I think, on the internet, as I go back on forth on whether I want DNA testing to be able to catch a kandra or not. I've erred on the side of, their DNA isn't human, and so they would not be compatible, but I've gone the other direction some of the time when people have asked this question. So, I guess the answer is, I have not fully decided for myself yet.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

   

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Questioner

Could a kandra imitating a human have a child with the human?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I kinda go back and forth on this. So-- 'Cause I think about it, then I tweak the magic, and I think "no this isn't possible," and then I go back, and I'm like, "but..." So it kinda comes down to a lot of things, such as, would I want a DNA test to be able to determine if a kandra is real or not. And I haven't canonized that yet, so your answer is, Read And Find Out, once I decide. I go back and forth on that one so much.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[alder24]

33 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Has anyone asked Brandon this?  "Will the eventual development of fingerprinting technology make it harder for kandra to impersonate somebody?"

Unlike facial features, fingerprints cannot be inferred from bones, nor even from DNA.  (We know this because identical twins have distinct fingerprints.)  So unless a kandra gets a person's body while it's still fresh, and knows exactly what to look for, you'd expect that they'd have no idea how to recreate authentic fingerprints.

It is not just about DNA. Many details of your appearance aren't from your DNA, like scars for example. Kandra will mimic them perfectly because Kandra has to eat the body while it's fresh to learn all those features. Kandra can't grow hair for example, they need to use the original hair. They will eat the body with fingerprints and that means they will perfectly copy them. In this case DAN replication doesn't matter, it's the matter of the freshness of the flesh.

TenSoon can use Kelsier's bare bones because he ate his flesh before, he knows his body, he remembers it - he remembers his fingerprints as well. But if he gets bones unknown to him, he won't know how this person looked, he will create a general human body with non-specific features (well TenSoon is op, but that's the rule). HoA ch 7:

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His body wasn't that of any specific person—he would have needed a model to produce such a replica. Instead, he had covered the bones with muscles and skin as best he could. He was old enough that he knew how to create a reasonable approximation of a human. The features wouldn't be handsome; they might even be a little grotesque. That, however, was more than good enough for the moment. He felt . . . real again. [...]
"I just picked a random set of bones from the storeroom," VarSell said. "It's ironic that I would give you a set of bones that you'd originally contributed."
TenSoon frowned. What?
And then he made the connection. The body that TenSoon had created around the bones must look convincing—as if it were the original one that these bones had belonged to. VarSell assumed that TenSoon had been able to create such a realistic approximation because he'd originally digested the human's corpse, and therefore knew how to create the right body around the bones.

 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

TenSoon can use Kelsier's bare bones because he ate his flesh before, he knows his body, he remembers it - he remembers his fingerprints as well. But if he gets bones unknown to him, he won't know how this person looked, he will create a general human body with non-specific features (well TenSoon is op, but that's the rule).

Actually, it was OreSeur that consumed Kell's corpse, not TenSoon. TenSoon just made it up by generalities and remembering the one time he had seen Kelsier while spying for Venture (HoA Ch 52):

Spoiler

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Kelsier, the Survivor of Hathsin, had indeed appeared to his followers that night years ago. Or, at least, his bones had. OreSeur had been commanded to take the Survivor’s own body and digest it, then appear to the faithful skaa and give them encouragement. The legends of the Survivor, the whole religion that had sprung up around him, had been started by a kandra.

And TenSoon had eventually killed that kandra. But not before learning his secrets. Secrets such as where OreSeur had buried the bones of the Survivor, and how the man had looked.

TenSoon smiled as he unearthed the first bone. They were years old now, and he hated using old bones. Plus, there would be no hair, so the body he created would be bald. Still, the opportunity was too valuable to pass up. He’d only seen the Survivor once, but with his expertise in imitation…

Well, it was worth a try.

<snip>

TenSoon left the gates of Keep Venture behind, running off into the mists. He could, perhaps, have gotten himself into the building. However, he wasn’t certain how well his imitation of the Survivor would hold up under closer scrutiny.

<snip>

TenSoon hesitated. Where? “There is a pair of guards at the front of Keep Venture. They know of a place. Listen to them. You must get to a place underground. Do you understand?”

“Yes, lord,” the man said. Behind, more and more people were edging forward, straining to catch a glimpse of TenSoon. He bore their scrutiny with some nervousness. Finally, he bid them be careful, then fled into the night.

He found an empty building and quickly changed back to the dog’s bones before anyone else could see him. When he was done, he eyed the Survivor’s bones, feeling a strange… reverence.

Don’t be silly, he told himself. They’re just bones, like hundreds of other sets you’ve used. Still, it seemed foolish to leave such a potentially powerful tool behind. He carefully packed them into the sack he’d pilfered, then—using paws he’d created to have more dexterity than those of a real wolfhound—he tied the sack on his back.

 

Annotations:

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TenSoon Impersonates Kelsier

I hope it’s not too much of a stretch for you to buy TenSoon mimicking Kelsier here. The groundwork is all there: He is extremely good at crafting bodies, to the point that he was able to make a believable person out of bones he’d never used before back in the Homeland. He interrogated OreSeur and knew where the bones were, and what quirks of features he’d need to include to mimic Kelsier. And he’d seen the Survivor on one occasion himself.

That’s right—as he mentions, he did see the Survivor. This shouldn’t be too surprising for you, as TenSoon makes an appearance in book one. Go back and look in the book at where Elend confronts his father after going to one of the balls and coming home late. (I think it’s the first or second Elend viewpoint we get.) There he mentions TenSoon, the Venture kandra.

TenSoon was there the day Kelsier fought in the Square of the Survivor, just like Elend and Straff were.

 

But your point still stands, a fresh enough body should have fingerprints copied (just as blood type is copied). 

Edited March 11 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It is not just about DNA. Many details of your appearance aren't from your DNA, like scars for example. Kandra will mimic them perfectly because Kandra has to eat the body while it's fresh to learn all those features. Kandra can't grow hair for example, they need to use the original hair. They will eat the body with fingerprints and that means they will perfectly copy them. In this case DAN replication doesn't matter, it's the matter of the freshness of the flesh.

TenSoon can use Kelsier's bare bones because he ate his flesh before, he knows his body, he remembers it - he remembers his fingerprints as well. But if he gets bones unknown to him, he won't know how this person looked, he will create a general human body with non-specific features (well TenSoon is op, but that's the rule). HoA ch 7:

 

 

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, it was OreSeur that consumed Kell's corpse, not TenSoon. TenSoon just made it up by generalities and remembering a the one time he had seen Kelsier while spying for Venture (HoA Ch 52):

  Hide contents

Annotations:

 

But your point still stands, a fresh enough body should have fingerprints copied (just as blood type is copied). 

A few random thoughts:

1. Would mummy-style embalming help or hinder a Kandra?  Things like scars, tattoos, etc, would technically be preserved a lot longer but all the soft tissues would be desiccated down way out of their original shapes.  
2. That's an awful lot of memory storage to be able to recall the placement of every hair for multiple bodies.  It makes me wonder if they have some racial magical memory augmentation akin to Lightweaver memory that is specific to the tactile Body Digestion process, something separate from their general biological memory?
3. Have they ever mentioned having to store away the Hair and junk along along with the bones when they want to use the disguise again later on?

 

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Have they ever mentioned having to store away the Hair and junk along along with the bones when they want to use the disguise again later on?

This, at least, was mentioned in HoA. Ch 33:

Spoiler

It had been a wild hope, but he’d manipulated the Second Generation into giving him back the dog’s body. The sack had even contained the body’s hair and nails—likely, they had simply collected the entire mess after forcing TenSoon to abandon it and enter his prison a year ago.

The comfortable bones gave him strength. This was the body that Vin had given him. 

If TenSoon did not store the wolfhound, and the dog bones were stored with hair and nails - then in the implication is that when a body is abandoned and stored, it is habit retain all the "accessories" that go with the bones unless there is a reason to discard them (such as fire damage to the hair). 

11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's an awful lot of memory storage to be able to recall the placement of every hair for multiple bodies.

This, too, is implied by Annotations and WoB:

Spoiler

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zas678

TenSoon wonders, and I wonder too- How can kandra think and be sentient without brains? Doesn't the body need a physical coordinator to relay between the Physical and Cognitive realm? Or do the spikes do a good enough job with that?

Brandon Sanderson

I imagine kandra having a non-centralized nervous system, with brain power spread through their bodies. Well, non-centralized is probably the wrong way to say it. They have lobes of thought and memory attached to muscles here and there, and don't have a single 'brain.' They certainly have brain-like material, though.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

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mathota123

When a kandra loses its spikes temporarily and its memories degrade, is that happening because of the spikes decaying, or is something biological actually happening to where it has stored its memories?

Brandon Sanderson

It's biological. Good question!

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 23, 2017)

 

Although I think it's more likely that they are not "memorizing" each hair - so much as "human body hair follows <patterns>" and recognizing "this body follows this pattern with <exceptions>. So, if the details for a given set of bones are stored in a specific "lobe" then you don;t need to actively remember that so much as access that lobe when you need to recall that information. 

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, it was OreSeur that consumed Kell's corpse, not TenSoon. TenSoon just made it up by generalities and remembering a the one time he had seen Kelsier while spying for Venture (HoA Ch 52):

True, my bad.

 

24 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Would mummy-style embalming help or hinder a Kandra?  Things like scars, tattoos, etc, would technically be preserved a lot longer but all the soft tissues would be desiccated down way out of their original shapes.  

I think it might help, but a Kandra would have to practice with those kinds of corpses to get used to their unique characteristics. Someone like TenSoon would be able to create a general human form while adding details preserved from the mummy, making a good copy of that mummified person.

[Dofurion]

Taking advantage of the topic, there are some things that could be interesting to consider:

• If it is already planned that the Kandra can reproduce with humans, it means that their organs are functional; therefore, their hair follicles should also be functional. It may be an ability that they have not discovered yet, or it may be that for the missions they carried out until now, it was an unnecessary waste of time to grow that hair.

• If a Kandra could reproduce everything based solely on genetics, without any additional information, it could very well become the ideal version of that body. (By ideal, I do not mean perfect, but rather the version with zero reminiscences of the environment, something like if it had developed in a gestation capsule.)

• In theory, you could get a lot of information from just the bones, since in real life, there is an entire branch of archeology dedicated to reconstructing facial and body characteristics based on the details of the bones.

• Taking advantage of the fact that it is the general forum, don't you think that the happiest Kandra of all would be a Radiant Kandra? After all, he could make the Causin Sprens form his bones and they could take any shape he wanted, almost without filing.

Edited March 12 by Dofurion