Splinters of Honor

[Satsuoni he/him]

Weren't the Symbolspren kind of sentient originally? The one that talks is actually the character I found easiest to identify with Also, does/did anyone transcribe this hangout so it could be entered into database?

[Dros]

Windrunner could be right on this. I associate Stormlight with Cultivation because of Kaladin's use of it. It makes him better, it doesn't grant skill. Stormlight is used to power Surgebinding, but Surgebinding really doesn't fit what I see as Cultivation's Intent.

Edit: One thing though, wasn't Kaladin surgebinding before he said the words? He pulled the arrows into his shield before he went Super Kal on the Parshendi. And it doesn't seem that Szeth has an Honorspren, but he's Surgebinding. Things to think on still.

However, all magic systems use Stormlight, even Voidbringers apparently. So, it's quite possible Surgebinding is Honor's magic system only and we haven't seen the other two systems at all yet. It's also quite possible that High Storms that produce Stormlight are a naturally occurring event on Roshar and that's why the Shards chose the planet in the first place. It's also possible that Stormlight is Cultivation's contribution to Roshar's people. Possibilities are quite numerous and there's not a lot of info out there to say anything definitively.

A lot more info is needed, I agree.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Droz

[Dros]

Does that mean they "honor" those measurements?

It seems so doesn't it.

[Aradel he/him]

I'm not certain of the mechanics yet, but I do think Surgebinding is a shared system.

Honor deals with binding things. Surgebinding.

Cultivation brings out potential and enhances.

I always thought of stormlight cultivating and sustaining the spren. Then, when the conditions are met, an appropriate spren is bonded (Honor) to a human and they cultivate (guess who) each other's traits.

The spren increases the human's spiritual connection and the human cultivates the spren's cognitive abilities in Kaladin and Syl's case.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Shanderton]

This might be crazy, and it sort of depends on when Honor died (I'm also pretty sure someone has said this before), but could the parshendi be a splinter of honour? What if they became sentient parshmen at the same time that honour got shattered.

[Telcontar]

The fact that there are other spren that can become sentient leads me to believe that not all can. I'm thinking that only Honor spren can gain sentience (assuming that they're the splinters of Honor) and ordinary spren can't.

Brandonthology:

Louise wrote: "Is spren lost their memories and personalities because of the loss of their attached radiants? But retain a basic attraction to things associated with the radiants they bonded to previously?"

Not all types of spren bonded to Radiants. You will find out more about this in the future. However, if you're speaking specifically of spren that were bonded to Radiants, then yes, you're on the right track.

emphasis mine

Windrunner could be right on this. I associate Stormlight with Cultivation because of Kaladin's use of it. It makes him better, it doesn't grant skill. Stormlight is used to power Surgebinding, but Surgebinding really doesn't fit what I see as Cultivation's Intent.

Edit: One thing though, wasn't Kaladin surgebinding before he said the words? He pulled the arrows into his shield before he went Super Kal on the Parshendi. And it doesn't seem that Szeth has an Honorspren, but he's Surgebinding. Things to think on still.

If I understand the concept of Shardic intent correctly, then following a Shard's intent is the way to gain magical abilities in the first place. How one get's invested. Or maybe how you get access to your magical abilities. (snapping)

All you need to do to become a Surgebinder is acting in an honorable way (according to one of the Heraldic Ideals). Syl's sentience is only a result of the greater connection to Honor. There is no Cultivation implied.

After all, one could as well say that Elantrians self-healing abilities are cultivated... But there again, that's only the result of the Shaod. Cultivation is not even there.

However, all magic systems use Stormlight, even Voidbringers apparently. So, it's quite possible Surgebinding is Honor's magic system only and we haven't seen the other two systems at all yet. It's also quite possible that High Storms that produce Stormlight are a naturally occurring event on Roshar and that's why the Shards chose the planet in the first place. It's also possible that Stormlight is Cultivation's contribution to Roshar's people. Possibilities are quite numerous and there's not a lot of info out there to say anything definitively.

Err... so far Surgebinding is the only magic system we've seen on Roshar. It uses Stormlight yes. Voidbinding appearently does. But that's all. We don't know much about the Old Magic but it does not seem to use Stormlight. Stone Shamanism probably does not use Stormlight as there is no Stormlight in Shinovar.

All evidence points to the conclusion that Surgebinding is Honor.

For Cultivation, my guess is that Stone Shamanism is hers. Shinovar is the only place on Roshar where you can farm due to the lack of Highstorms. And farming certainly is cultivating the earth.

My other guess is that Cultivation (as being the first one to arrive on Roshar) created the Highstorms to enable life on Roshar. Life needs water and it seems only to rain during Highstorms and during the Weeping. All Roshar-originated life-forms are adapted to Highstorms, all those plants that only open when it rains. Without rain they probably would dry out.

Honor arrived later and added his spirits to Highstorms.

[Windrunner he/him]

You mirrored my thoughts exactly Telcontar, I see that as being the only way that highstorms could have predated Honor while still containing his power.

Minor Mistborn Spoilers

It's just like the mists on Scadrial which both Ruin and Preservation contribute to now, where previously it was just Preservation.

Have I missed a quote where it says that Voidbinding is powered by Stormlight? Because I've never seen that spelled out anywhere, and it seems unlikely to me. I think that Stormlight, powering what is in my mind indubitably Honor's system, must be of Honor. So it wouldn't power Voidbinding because that is of Odium. It would be like Preservation powering Hemalurgy; possible but expending power in a way that Shards are hesitant to do. If you follow the Principle of Intent then it would be inefficient, requiring more power with the power taking longer to return to the Shard. If anything, it could be related to the dark sphere Gavilar handed Szeth, containing "Voidlight" perhaps?

I can't say that it never would have rained on Roshar before Cultivation made highstorms, as they seem responsible for its variable weather patterns. Is it possible that Cultivation could have been trying to make as wide a variety of life? Traveling the worlds creating new and unique organisms. Perhaps one of the reasons the highstorms were set into motion was to create a dramatic new ecosystem for life to evolve in. But then again, a lot of Shards aren't consciously responsible for the things that their presence brings into existence. Preservation probably didn't choose to be mists. It might be more likely that the highstorms are a natural reaction between Roshar and the Shard's power, and Cultivation just ran with it.

[Telcontar]

I messed things up a bit: here is the quote about VoidBRINGERS and Stormlight:

tWoK paperback, pg.13

[szeth] had heard that Voidbringers could hold [stormlight] in perfectly

That's at least what I was referring to.

It might be more likely that the highstorms are a natural reaction between Roshar and the Shard's power, and Cultivation just ran with it.

Nice thought!

[Dros]

Windrunner and Telcontar, that part about Szeth hearing that Voidbringers hold Stormlight perfectly is what I was referring to before. I just made an assumption they hold Stormlight for their own magic system. That, of course, might not be the case.

My theory was that Stormlight just makes you better. What is made better is of no consequence...of course that raises the question of what exactly is the definition of "better". For example, is making Voidbringers more capable at causing desolation and mayhem still considered making them better? However...after thinkling on this for a little bit, I think you're right on this. Stormlight is just the fuel.

Quite frankly, I'm thinking that I completely agree that Surgebinding is Honor's magic system. Szeth is doing it and he seems to be acting as honorable as possible, considering the circumstances. Kaladin is doing it before he says the Oaths and has attracted an Honorspren. I agree it's called an Honorspren, how obvious does it need to be?

And I really do like the reference to the mists. I like the idea that maybe the Highstorms were similar. Just a consequence of the Shard's influence on Roshar.

And as far as Intent goes, I look at this way: (let me know if this is a mistaken view of what it implies)

Users of Cultivation's power need to have an intent to make themselves "better" through their actions because that meshes with the Shard's intent. The definition of "better" would need to be clarified, though.

Users of Honor's power would need to act with honor, because that meshes with Honor's intent. The definition of "honorable" would need to be clarified, though. Brandon has gone out of his way to show the Parshedi appearing to act honorable, amid several instances of dishonrable actions(assasinations and killing defenseless bridgemen). So would they be considered honorable?

User's of Odium's power need to really hate someone or something, because that meshes with Odium's Intent. I wouldn't think we need clarification on hate.

Now moving back to the magic systems:

What helped me clarify what I think is going on in all this is: 1) Nohadan saying Surgebinders had a Nahel Bond, but it didn't make them wiser and there was a need to make people "better". I presume the KR developed for that reason and they discovered the Oaths would open up vast amounts of power. I'm making the assumption they didn't need to say the Oaths to have access to the power that allows Surgebinding. 2) Kaladin was Surgebinding before he said the Oaths and after he said them he didn't go ballistic with lashings, but with his spear and agility, things he already knew. 3) Szeth doesn't seem to have an Honorspren, but has Surgebinding abilities presumably due to his honorable Intent.

Now the meat:

What Kaladin does after he says the Oaths isn't Surgebinding is it? It just made him better...perhaps what we saw was Cultivation's magic system. Something similar to ChayShan (sp??). The Oaths made preexisting abilities better. The Oaths allow KRs to use Surgebinding better. They can "fly", etc. I know Honor told Dalinar to raise the KRs again, but maybe the Oaths are Cultivation's contribution to Honor's effort against Odium. The Oaths are what Cultivation needs to hear to grant power to the right people, i.e. KRs. Surgebinders can be KRs, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all Surgebinders must be KRs. But only KR Surgebinders reach the level of the KRs we saw in Dalinar's Midnight Essence vision.

Think about it. We all agree Szeth is Surgbinding. Can he do what the KRs did in the visions? Even with Shardplate...could he do those things?

There might not be combined magic systems, but the KRs, I believe, are a combined effort between Cultivation and Honor. I was getting mixed up because I was thinking of the KRs as only a creation of Honor and Stormlight apparently making Kaladin better. But the Oaths made him better...but not just at Surgebinding--it made him better at everything.

[Aethling he/him]

I think people are reading too much into the Highstorms. From the descriptions and the pictures we have, they are basically a high powered hurricane. For anyone that has lived through a category three or better, the description pretty much matches what you experienced. The cover of the book looks remarkably like a stormwall seen coming at you. The only odd thing about them is their regularity.

Honor or Cultivation may have coopted a strong natural force, but it is a stretch to say that an event that occurs naturally on our planet and others in our solar system could be solely the result of Shards acting independently. After all, it would be a stretch, but you couldd link Vo's shiprwreck to a hurricane if you really wanted to do so. Possibly Lightsong's deed as well.

Almost everything that people are using to say that the Spren are a result of Honor could just as easily be used to say that they are a representation of Cultivation, possibly with more effect. The magic system stuff, that I will leave you guys to argue over, I haven't managed to reread it with that much attention since it is such a long book.

[Windrunner he/him]

It's an interesting idea Droz, I only have one problem with it. Oaths seem firmly in Honor's domain to me, so I don't think they'd be a way to access Cultivation's power. However I can see where your coming from with the Oaths making you better but I still disagree. Also I'm not quite sure what you mean by Kaladin not using Surgebinding after saying his Oath. From what I understand it just made him more efficient at utilizing Stormlight, and possibly unlocking other Radiant abilities we haven't seen yet. I'm not sure what you mean by making him better at everything. Stormlight makes you better, but it did that before he spoke the Oath too.

My personal Cultivation theory is that the farmers in Shinovar use it. They are Cultivating plants first of all (not that I believe that you have to Cultivate plants to get the magic). Also they are so revered in Shinovar, it makes sense as a potential explanation that they have powers.

@Aethling

I don't really understand what you mean when your talking about the hurricanes on Nalthis. I'm sure natural hurricanes happen on every Shardworld, and probably every world with liquid water in the whole Cosmere. Is it a "stretch" to say that Preservation was responsible for the mists on Scadrial? Mists are a natural phenomena too, but these have unnatural behaviors, coming every night only at night, snapping people, and swirling around those using Allomancy. In the same way Highstorms have very unnatural behaviors. Coming at fairly predictable times, spewing stormlight all over the place, not to mention the giant head that appears in the clouds who talks to Kaladin and mentions not one, but two different Shards. It seems definitely the result of Shards to me. If I had to pick a Shard I'd say Cultivation since it refers to Honor and Odium as if it is not them. But then again Cultivation is a girl, and the if I'm remembering correctly the face was masculine. Maybe the potential third Roshar Shard people have been speculating about. Just because it mirrors a natural phenomena doesn't mean it wasn't caused by a Shard. Does that make sense to you?

Edited April 23, 2012 by Windrunner

[Aethling he/him]

I do not doubt that the shards have coopted the highstorm, but some are saying they created them. Why go so far to say that?

[Satsuoni he/him]

Possibly because Ruin and Preservation made all the life on Scadrial, so changing weather patterns is not out of the question.

[Windrunner he/him]

I do not doubt that the shards have coopted the highstorm, but some are saying they created them. Why go so far to say that?

I'm afraid I'm not quite following you. In my opinion, there is no way that highstorms are a natural event that the Shards are altering. Massive world-wide hurricanes don't form ever, let alone at least once a week. I don't know why they have to use a regular weather phenomena when Preservation didn't to make the mists. This is like no storm ever. Sure there have been hurricanes that strong, but never so common. Or in such an unusual shape, a wall across the land instead, of the rotating hurricanes we see. If highstorms conformed to regular weather patterns I'd be willing to admit that there's a possibility that they were partially natural. But they don't conform, they never even switch directions. It's so certain they don't say east and west on Roshar, but stormward and leeward. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but I can't see a storm being natural at all when it has nothing in common with any storm ever except for containing wind, rain, and clouds.

[Dros]

I think people are reading too much into the Highstorms. From the descriptions and the pictures we have, they are basically a high powered hurricane. For anyone that has lived through a category three or better, the description pretty much matches what you experienced. The cover of the book looks remarkably like a stormwall seen coming at you. The only odd thing about them is their regularity.

Honor or Cultivation may have coopted a strong natural force, but it is a stretch to say that an event that occurs naturally on our planet and others in our solar system could be solely the result of Shards acting independently. After all, it would be a stretch, but you couldd link Vo's shiprwreck to a hurricane if you really wanted to do so. Possibly Lightsong's deed as well.

Almost everything that people are using to say that the Spren are a result of Honor could just as easily be used to say that they are a representation of Cultivation, possibly with more effect. The magic system stuff, that I will leave you guys to argue over, I haven't managed to reread it with that much attention since it is such a long book.

I don't know, man. I live near the NC coast and I've never seen a storm wall that well defined. Maybe it's because I'm a little inland, but Highstorms seem a lot more devastating than hurricanes...they literally strip the soil from the land. Never seen a hurricane do that--especially inland.

Windrunner---

I've thought that too. Oaths seem like something Honor would use. That's the wrinkle. I mean, there could be a number of reasons that Cultivation might use an Oath. For example, maybe she wanted to help Honor with constructing the KRs, but didn't feel comfortable giving so much power to one group of folks. Honor comes up with a compromise---they say these Oaths, Honor binds them somehow and then Cultivation can give access to her power without feeling it might be misused. However, there's no way to know for sure, but it just seems right to me. Cultivation is in the mix somehow, her influence is evident to me, but it's difficult to pin it down with so little information.

[Sweetness she/her]

On Highstorms; there are a lot of different factors that influence a given planet's weather patterns. Remember that Roshar has three moons. The gravitational effects of those would play havoc with the weather, so it would not necessarily resemble Earth's weather at all.

I remember seeing a Discovery Channel special that claimed that if Earth had no moon, we'd be slammed by massive storms all the time.

I don't know if Brandon has thought that deep into it, but it's not hard to imagine that he has. After all, the landmasses on Roshar do look like a satellite image of a hurricane.

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm sure that the moons have some effect on weather, possibly even accounting for Roshar's variable seasons. I wonder if it's possible that the moons could have a great enough gravitational pull that they move Roshar's axis around, alternately tipping it closer and further away from the star at seemingly random intervals. I imagine the math required to do calculations to discover that sort of correlation would be beyond what the people of Roshar currently have. Brandon's typically pretty good at looking into the science of it all, especially noticeable in the HoA epigraphs.

I still don't see how the highstorms could be regular hurricanes that were just overpowered. It doesn't even make sense if you picture the stormwall as the edge of a massive hurricane. If it is really so large that the edge of the spiral appears almost flat, then the wind coming off it wouldn't be blowing directly at you, but perpendicular to you because it would be rotating. If that description didn't make any sense I can draw it in paint to illustrate my point. Storms on terrestrial planets just don't move in straight lines like that.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Windrunner

[oGGe]

The Sprens being small parts of the Honor-shard makes allot of sense. When Odium defeated Honor he probably had the choice to take the honor-power for himself, but that would have changed him to no longer being Odium.

So he instead decided to splinter the honor-shard instead, creating the Spren. That way he thought to make sure that honor could never again rise to challenge his power.

Another thing I came to think of: Perhaps the Radiants betrayal (them being honors champions in a way) weakened Honor in some way and that made it possible for Odium to defeat it?

[Odium's_Shard]

Firstly, we have no idea when Honor was killed in relation to the Last Desolation or the Recreance, or whether both events were caused by his death, one cause his death which caused the other, or he has been killed since dissolving the Radiants.

Secondly, that was some mild thread necromancy there! Congratulations! Here's a cookie:

[Windrunner he/him]

We actually do know when Honor died in relation to the Aharietiam, if not the Recreance.

QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

Source

[Odium's_Shard]

So, who knows, seeing the blasphemy of his most trusted servants and capable warriors joining the other side, and turning away from the Light, might have given the poor old (4.5 billion years?) man a heart attack.