Off-world travel for CS

[therunner he/him]

So there is this new WoB, saying that the answer to how Heralds, CS, spren, etc. can leave their planet is in RoW

Quote

Questioner

I know that certain characters like Heralds and others cannot leave their planet because they're so heavily Invested, and they can't leave through the Cognitive Realm. If there was a spaceship - I know there's gonna be spaceships - but I mean like, spaceships without any other things, could they leave their planet that way? And if not, what would happen to their Physical body?

Brandon Sanderson

So they would not be able to leave. It would be pretty destructive for them, because it would basically rip out their Spiritual component, and it would have to stay. And the squishy matter stuff might keep going, but it'd be a disaster, right? So, even a Physical spaceship to convey them away would not work. But the answer to how it can happen is in Rhythm of War, so read Rhythm of War and... they're figuring things out.

Miscellaneous 2024 (Jan. 1, 2024)

Any ideas for what the answer is?
The only thing that comes to mind is blanking of Investiture from the 'Shardic Rhythm', similar to what Navani did with Stormlight. Nothing else was really detailed in RoW that could be an answer.

Edited March 18 by therunner

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

So there is this new WoB, saying that the answer to how Heralds, CS, spren, etc. can leave their planet is in RoW

Any ideas for what the answer is?
The only thing that comes to mind is blanking of Investiture from the 'Shardic Rhythm', similar to what Navani did with Stormlight. Nothing else was really detailed in RoW that could be an answer.

I think it's about whatever Mraize is doing to transport Stormlight out of Roshar. They've already figured out what to do, they just need to blank its Connection to Roshar (not Shards, just to the planet), they need BAM. RoW ch 13:

Quote

“This power is something we call Investiture,” Mraize said. “Investiture manifests in many forms, tied to many places and many different gods. It is bound to a specific land—making it very difficult to transport. It resists. Try to carry this too far, and you’d find it increasingly difficult to move, as it became increasingly heavy.
“The same limitation restrains people who are themselves heavily Invested. Radiants, spren—anyone Connected to Roshar is bound by these laws, and cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize. You are imprisoned here, Radiant.”
[...]
Mraize took the broam back. “This gemstone cannot go where it is needed. A more perfect gemstone could contain the Light long enough to go offworld, but there is still the Connection problem. This little flaw has caused untold trouble. And the one who unlocks the secret would have untold power. Literal power, Radiant. The power to change worlds…”
“So you want to unravel the secret,” Radiant said.
“I already have,” Mraize said, making a fist. “Though putting the plan into motion will be difficult. I have a job for you.”

I don't think the same result could be achieved by messing with their soul's Rhythm - you can't make it without any Rhythm, when the sphere with Stormlight leaves the vacuum it will pick up the first Rhythm it hears - Anti-Rhythm in the case of Navani's experiments. Leaving it blanked might be impossible. 

[Elite01]

spoilers for stormlight 5 prologue

Spoiler

I thought the answer was either an aluminum box or a gem of some kind. 

Can't remember specifics but we see things from Gavilars point of view in the SA5 prologue and we learn that 

1. Restares the herald has been working with him because he "wants out" clearly trying to escape Roshar

2. He has found a way to get voidspren from Braize to Roshar. I think it was because he trapped them in aluminum boxes and transported them in the cognitive realm. You could either replicate this with a heralds cognitive shadow or maybe just creating a vessel out of aluminum for the herald to travel in. I don't know if it would make a difference in the physical or cognitive but I feel like it would have more success in the cognitive realm

 

[Argenti he/him]

On 3/18/2024 at 11:32 AM, Elite01 said:

spoilers for stormlight 5 prologue

  Hide contents

I thought the answer was either an aluminum box or a gem of some kind. 

Can't remember specifics but we see things from Gavilars point of view in the SA5 prologue and we learn that 

1. Restares the herald has been working with him because he "wants out" clearly trying to escape Roshar

2. He has found a way to get voidspren from Braize to Roshar. I think it was because he trapped them in aluminum boxes and transported them in the cognitive realm. You could either replicate this with a heralds cognitive shadow or maybe just creating a vessel out of aluminum for the herald to travel in. I don't know if it would make a difference in the physical or cognitive but I feel like it would have more success in the cognitive realm

 

SA5
 

Spoiler

Braize to roshar is easy, roshar to scadrial is not. It's a very different problem. 

 

[Rorzikel]

I just assumed it was Ishar’s experiments with making spren physical.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

I just assumed it was Ishar’s experiments with making spren physical.

That should not change their Connection to Roshar. Heralds are physical and they still can't travel off-world.

[Rorzikel]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

That should not change their Connection to Roshar. Heralds are physical and they still can't travel off-world.

Spren are cognitive entities and his process appears to shift the entirety into the physical (currently lethally). Heralds are stapled to a body like many CSs, though the Heralds make or reform their own bodies somehow to attach to instead of possession.

The assumption behind my theory is that moving their entire fossilized cognitive aspect might change things. It allowed a true death for the radiant spren Dalinar found, entities that normally don’t even go to the beyond or not leave something like a deadeye. I just think it has potential as the hint for the method.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

Spren are cognitive entities and his process appears to shift the entirety into the physical (currently lethally). Heralds are stapled to a body like many CSs, though the Heralds make or reform their own bodies somehow to attach to instead of possession.

The assumption behind my theory is that moving their entire fossilized cognitive aspect might change things. It allowed a true death for the radiant spren Dalinar found, entities that normally don’t even go to the beyond or not leave something like a deadeye. I just think it has potential as the hint for the method.

Ishar is likely messing with their Connection to CR and PR, but that should not change their Connection to Roshar - that's something different. Spren have bodies in CR, those killed by Ishar had the same bodies in PR, so those bodies were moved between realms. Their Connection to Roshar is because they are saturated with investiture of Honor and Cultivation and that binds them to the system. No matter if they are in PR or CR, they are still bound by this. You need to manipulate this specific Connection to Roshar, which Ishar likely wasn't touching at all as that wouldn't help him manifest bodies of spren.

[+Dragon13 he/him]

My belief is that the method pointed to in RoW was in chapter 115, when Shallan opened the metal cube containing the Seon Ala.  A cube of (I believe) aluminum would temporarily interrupt the investiture of the CS, allowing it to be brought off-world.  Once that has been accomplished, it could probably be released without severe consequence.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Dragon13 said:

My belief is that the method pointed to in RoW was in chapter 115, when Shallan opened the metal cube containing the Seon Ala.  A cube of (I believe) aluminum would temporarily interrupt the investiture of the CS, allowing it to be brought off-world.  Once that has been accomplished, it could probably be released without severe consequence.

If an aluminum box was all that's needed to take invested stuff off world, Ghostbloods would be already trading Stormlight on Scadrial. That's not it. Per WoB in the first post, opening the box with a CS inside would snap their soul back to Roshar, leaving a lifeless corpse in the box. Seons and Dor are probably influenced by their special circumstances - their Shards are Splintered and moved to CR.

[Duxredux he/him]

Hmm... I think this ties back to Kaladin and Vasher's discussion about killing a Cognitive Shadow as well as Kalak's letter in the epigraphs. The nature of a Cognitive Shadow is that they are Investiture that has an imprint of a soul that persists after the original person dies. Notably Vasher classifies himself as a Type II Invested Entity, differentiating himself from something like Syl, who he calls a Type I entity. I suspect that the process of imprinting a soul into the Investiture Connects that Investiture to the Beyond in some manner. The soul knows it needs to go beyond, even if it's an imprinted copy of the original soul, so something needs to provide a sufficient tie to the other realms to prevent the soul from passing. This can either be done by a sufficiently strong tie that anchors them to the PR, CR, and SR, or it can be done by active resistance and burning Investiture.

So... here's my take. Returned are a bit different than most because they are granted power without ties to Endowment - an aspect of the nature of Endowment giving away power. Because of this, they don't have ties to Endowment and can leave Nalthis freely, but they also are not sustained by Endowment either and will quickly die even locally - unless they can consume Investiture to actively resist the pull of the Beyond. Type I entities like spren and seons do not have to resist the pull the Pull to the Beyond, but are still Connected to their native planet. Both naturally and natively form Connections to the Physical Realm and entities in the Physical Realm with nature spren temporarily manifesting in the PR with even Windspren able to create the force of Adhesion (assuming all those pranking Windspren weren't just Honorspren). While Type I entities may not need sustenance, they are still Connected... so perhaps they are either Connected to a person or object (spren to human, seon to box like we see utilized by both Ghostbloods and Fjorden) and then the general Connection is disrupted by aluminum or something similar?

That WoB about a Cognitive Shadow trying to leave a planet on a starship having their spiritual component ripped out...  that implies a vacuum like what Navani did by blanking the prevalent Tones of Roshar isn't the solution or the problem for a CS leaving, as a spiritual component is still anchoring them. Interestingly, despite this being the case, Jezrien's soul was severed from the Oathpact and with no valid ties to the other realms his soul degraded into a normal soul and passed into the Beyond.  Maybe Navani's experiment with vacuums didn't completely deafen the Tone of Roshar, rather it lessened it to the extent that her produced Anti-Tone allowed it to realign its tone.

So... my guess is that Cognitive Shadows like Kelsier, the Heralds, and the Fused are so thoroughly Connected to their respective Shards (Preservation, Honor, and Odium) and this tie is what binds them to life. Heralds don't consume Investiture once incarnate, it's the Oathpact that sustains them (see WoB below). However this tie (perhaps with slight variations based on the nature of the Shard granting their Immortality) is also what keeps them restricted to their respective locales. Thus, it's not as simple as blanking or disrupting Connection, a CS needs an alternative tie to the Realms that is stronger than the pull to the Beyond (in fact, it's the severing of the tie to the PR that usually causes any normal soul to be pulled into the Beyond with souls with greater ties or power that persist longer naturally). Climb into an aluminum box or try to ride out in a gem stone, and their Connection to the Shard will be severed - along with their anchor to life. They need some way to either transfer the Connection that anchors them to something else (maybe we'll see something like the phylactery of a lich, though we've seen versions of this all over the place), or to find a way to reliably sustain themselves without that anchor forged by the power of a Shard.

WoB from main thought:

Spoiler

Oversleep (as Droga Królów)

Do the Heralds need to consume Investiture in order to stay in their body?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question. Excellent question. They're asking if they're like Returned and they need to consume a Breath each week.

Read For Pixels 2018 (Sept. 1, 2018)