Isles of the Emberdark Reading Discussion

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

43 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Maybe even those Accords will be signed because of Dusk? Maybe we will see this exact action.

I don't think so, because timeline-wise SotD was confirmed by WOB to be the furthest ahead, not long before Mistborn Era 4. That means it must be further ahead of The Sunlit Man, where the Accords were mentioned.

Though I do think Dusk's actions might result in quite a bit of trouble for the Scadrians, after all they are effectively trying to bend the rules as much as they can to get what they want. So maybe more rules will be made to curb their influence? Sanctions on trade?

Maybe Dusk will need to deal with assassins from Scadrial, trying to shut him up to make sure significant factions don't learn about their schemes? Maybe other victims of Scadrian Expansionism will rise up to support First of the Sun?

Who knows? 

[Arkangel he/him]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

They've even set up rules of conduct based on stuff brought up in The Sunlit Man, with the Scadrian Scientists needing to follow the rule of not being obligated to interfere with events on Canticle. It was said to be part of the Silverlight Accords or something like that.

The Silverlight Codes of Interplanetary Conduct. Nomad uses The Refugee and Lost Expatriate Bill to request asylum. I believe the TimeTellers just told Nomad that they were neutral but he didn't really believe them, thinking they were probably part of the Scadrian military. I don't think it states whether or not their non-interference is related to the Codes.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

33 minutes ago, Arkangel said:

The Silverlight Codes of Interplanetary Conduct. Nomad uses The Refugee and Lost Expatriate Bill to request asylum. I believe the TimeTellers just told Nomad that they were neutral but he didn't really believe them, thinking they were probably part of the Scadrian military. I don't think it states whether or not their non-interference is related to the Codes.

Oh yeah, you're right. The TimeTellers were just being overly neutral jerks. Makes you wonder if they were just born with a heart full of neutrality. Maybe they found out how to spike it in.

But yeah those rules will probably be given more focus in Emberdark, since Dusk is gonna have to figure them out to get help. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 3/29/2024 at 8:28 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Can he react to that? Let's look at what Moonlight says about Autonomy:

And now apply it to Patji:

• Most people avoid the island, facing no danger from him but getting no benefit either. This is the first group, those who keep their heads down and live safely.
• The trappers work within his restrictions, weathering his threats and reaping his rewards. This is the second group, those who impress him and rise.
• The company rebels against his systems entirely, bulldozing his challenges and seizing the prize for themselves. This is the third group, those who go against him successfully and are rewarded.

The Ones Above are also the third group. Autonomy may not want them (or Roshar) to go on a conquering spree, and can prepare the people of First of the Sun to resist. But if the invaders prove themselves the more resilient of the two... well, can the Shard's Intent really allow them to withhold the spoils, even if it's not the outcome they hope for? Their nature demands they let the challenge stand once it's been issued.

At first it seemed to me like you are right. But pondering it seems to me that Autonomy being Autonomy she and her avatars do value ambition, but the protection of that valuation is limited to individual ambition. Why else would she be able to enslave people and not just anybody but members of the elite?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

At first it seemed to me like you are right. But pondering it seems to me that Autonomy being Autonomy she and her avatars do value ambition, but the protection of that valuation is limited to individual ambition. Why else would she be able to enslave people and not just anybody but members of the elite?

I don't understand the question, can you try to rephrase it?

[Rorzikel]

On 4/11/2024 at 3:21 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't understand the question, can you try to rephrase it?

I think they're saying that they can only understand a shard of (possibly) self-determination and independence enabling domination is if the intent is individually self-centered and not universally applied for all. If Autonomy was just about making everyone as free as possible, the intent would compel something more anarchic and less organized amongst her followers/mortals.

Personally, I'm side-eying the other definitions of autonomy for what Brandon might be thinking along the lines of:

• (in Kantian moral philosophy) the capacity of an agent to act in accordance with objective morality rather than under the influence of desires.
• (Christianity, uncountable) The status of a church whose highest-ranking bishop is appointed by the patriarch of the mother church, but which is self-governing in all other respects. 

I certainly think the shard is more complex than what I see people assume.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

the intent would compel something more anarchic and less organized amongst her followers/mortals

The Set is a complete and utter mess, I wouldn't call it "organized" except in name only. Even Autonomy's own orders don't have to be followed as long as you do your disobedience well.

28 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

Personally, I'm side-eying the other definitions of autonomy for what Brandon might be thinking along the lines of:

In Lost Metal, people pretty consistently use the term "individualism" to describe the Shard, so that's probably a good place to start too.

[Corgen]

Quote

Rosharan antigrav technology, Dhatrian aethers for providing thrust and engine power, a Scadrian composite metal hull.

Where is Sel technology?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

6 hours ago, Corgen said:

Where is Sel technology?

Stuck on Sel.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

On 5/7/2024 at 4:28 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Stuck on Sel.

*cough* tlm *cough* tress *cough*

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

38 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

*cough* tlm *cough* tress *cough*

Mostly stuck on Sel.

[Cerulean He/him]

Guys i actually saw Esther the other day, she was running this art gallery at some ysa conference, and believe it or not she actually showed me some beta images for emberdark. it seems really cool, but the one  i remember was something like a treehouse, not sure if this is already leaked but...?

btw sorry if this is the wrong forum

[PurpleZebra5]

I think this WoB kind of proves that the one Radiant is a Skybreaker:  (Also, sorry if this was already brought up)

Questioner

A few years ago, you told us a story about the future Skybreakers facing off against Scadrians for aviar. Were they doing that on behalf of their Shards? Or were they doing it for their own reasons?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Excellent question.

You can find that reading online, a possible sequel to the Sixth of the Dusk that I had worked on for a little while.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

[Ashbringer he/him]

Oh hey, I've been looking for a thread on this.

Anyway, I've been dealing with Stormlight theories a bit, so some were on my mind - the story of The Girl Who Looked Up is one of those.

We know it's not about Shallan, we know it's about an actual person, and the two things we know about her is that she's got white hair and a red scarf. We also learned in these readings that Starling has been banished for disobeying something, and has white hair.

 

I haven't seen it anywhere else, so I officially theorize The Girl Who Looked Up is Starling.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Oh hey, I've been looking for a thread on this.

Anyway, I've been dealing with Stormlight theories a bit, so some were on my mind - the story of The Girl Who Looked Up is one of those.

We know it's not about Shallan, we know it's about an actual person, and the two things we know about her is that she's got white hair and a red scarf. We also learned in these readings that Starling has been banished for disobeying something, and has white hair.

 

I haven't seen it anywhere else, so I officially theorize The Girl Who Looked Up is Starling.

Omg you just broke my brain (off to re-read both and theorize) 

[Grailmoth]

5 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Oh hey, I've been looking for a thread on this.

Anyway, I've been dealing with Stormlight theories a bit, so some were on my mind - the story of The Girl Who Looked Up is one of those.

We know it's not about Shallan, we know it's about an actual person, and the two things we know about her is that she's got white hair and a red scarf. We also learned in these readings that Starling has been banished for disobeying something, and has white hair.

 

I haven't seen it anywhere else, so I officially theorize The Girl Who Looked Up is Starling.

I like the theory, but Starling is 80-something years old at the time of Isles of the Emberdark if I remember right, and the Story of the Girl Who Looked Up is told during the Stormlight archive, which I would guess is far more than 80 years before that. Unless Hoid is seeing far into the future, I don't know if the timelines work out.

Edited August 29 by Grailmoth

[Ashbringer he/him]

45 minutes ago, Grailmoth said:

I like the theory, but Starling is 80-something years old at the time of Isles of the Emberdark if I remember right, and the Story of the Girl Who Looked Up is told during the Stormlight archive, which I would guess is far more than 80 years before that. Unless Hoid is seeing far into the future, I don't know if the timelines work out.

Hmm. Fair point, but I think I've got an answer - time dilation. Yolen is nearly inaccessible for some reason, and there have been major hints towards some planets having time dilation that would affect them majorly. And also, Starling's spent her time running around in a spaceship - that's going to enact some time dilation on her as well.

It's also possible it's just not that far future. I forget when it's established that Hoid has a specific set of apprentices, but I think it was Sunlit Man, and Sunlit Man played very carefully into not giving away how long it had been since Stormlight (only mentioning a few decades). Similarly, the Set got very very close to having unInvested rocket technology within 11 years of Oathbringer. "Far Future" cosmere could be a whole lot sooner than we're expecting. I'm guessing it's a mix of those.

[Grailmoth]

On 8/28/2024 at 7:54 PM, Ashbringer said:

Hmm. Fair point, but I think I've got an answer - time dilation. Yolen is nearly inaccessible for some reason, and there have been major hints towards some planets having time dilation that would affect them majorly. And also, Starling's spent her time running around in a spaceship - that's going to enact some time dilation on her as well.

It's also possible it's just not that far future. I forget when it's established that Hoid has a specific set of apprentices, but I think it was Sunlit Man, and Sunlit Man played very carefully into not giving away how long it had been since Stormlight (only mentioning a few decades). Similarly, the Set got very very close to having unInvested rocket technology within 11 years of Oathbringer. "Far Future" cosmere could be a whole lot sooner than we're expecting. I'm guessing it's a mix of those.

Possibly. If Yolen is time-dilated, then I don't think there is much we can place in terms of timeline. For what it's worth though, The Girl Who Looked Up is described as a Rosharan folk tale, so it seems like it would have existed and been told through at least a couple of generations before Shallan and Hoid did their tellings.

 

Ignoring the possibility of time dilation though, I do think we can show that there are at a minimum, several hundred years between Isles of the Emberdark and SA1-5.

 

So, the Iriali are going to be used to place at least several hundred years between Starling and the Stormlight archive. We also know that Xisis (who happens to be the owner of Starlings ship) is on Lumar starting about 300 years before the events of Tress and the Emerald Sea, and that the Iriali left Lumar around the time Xisis arrived. 

 

Quote

Escovar

The Iriali left at least three hundred years prior to Tress's story. Xisis was said to have been on Lumar for at least three hundred years, by Crow's book. Is the arrival of Xisis and departure of the Iriali significantly related?

Brandon Sanderson

I did that intentionally, yes.

Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023)

 

The Iriali are on Roshar at the time both Shallan and Hoid share the story of the Girl Who Looked up. This places Tress, at a minimum, 300 years after the events of SA1-5. However, we know the Iriali LEFT 300 years prior to Tress, and given they spent thousands of years on Roshar, they were probably on Lumar for at least a few hundred. So I would propose a minimum of 500 years between SA and Tress.

 

Now, we just have to place Isles of the Emberdark after Tress, and we can do that with WOB from the Secret Project #5 Live Reveal and Stream.

Quote

Questioner

Is this the furthest forward that we have seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I intend this to be the furthest forward. Now, we don't have the full master timeline done yet, but I intend this to be just a little after Sunlit Man, which was our furthest forward at that point. So, this is just a little bit forward, but it's kinda the same era, just a little further than Sunlit Man.

Questioner

Is Yumi further than Sunlit Man?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, Yumi is further than Sunlit Man. The question is, is this further than Yumi? And I do think that it is. Yumi, technically, is further than Sunlit, which is a good point. It doesn't feel like it, because it's taking place on a world that's not as technologically advanced, but it technically is. Good catch.

Once Stormlight Five is out, the idea is to release a nice, full timeline for everybody.

Secret Project #5 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2024)

 

So, Tress is at least 300 years after SA, and Isles of the Emberdark is after Tress, so there must be at least a 300 year gap between Isles and The Girl who Looked Up, with some extra padding for the time the Iriali spent on Lumar before leaving, and the time needed for the story to become a Rosharan folk tale.

Edit: I'll also add that Yolen being time-dilated in a way that makes it move much slower than the rest of the Cosmere seems like it would create massive difficulties for communicating with those on the planet, and we have evidence that Hoid, at least, is communicating with Frost who we know lives on planet in Isles of the Emberdark.

Edited August 30 by Grailmoth
Removing spoiler tag since spoilers are allowed here

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, Grailmoth said:

Possibly. If Yolen is time-dilated, then I don't think there is much we can place in terms of timeline. For what it's worth though, The Girl Who Looked Up is described as a Rosharan folk tale, so it seems like it would have existed and been told through at least a couple of generations before Shallan and Hoid did their tellings.

 

Ignoring the possibility of time dilation though, I do think we can show that there are at a minimum, several hundred years between Isles of the Emberdark and SA1-5.

 

So, the Iriali are going to be used to place at least several hundred years between Starling and the Stormlight archive. We also know that Xisis (who happens to be the owner of Starlings ship) is on Lumar starting about 300 years before the events of Tress and the Emerald Sea, and that the Iriali left Lumar around the time Xisis arrived. 

 

 

The Iriali are on Roshar at the time both Shallan and Hoid share the story of the Girl Who Looked up. This places Tress, at a minimum, 300 years after the events of SA1-5. However, we know the Iriali LEFT 300 years prior to Tress, and given they spent thousands of years on Roshar, they were probably on Lumar for at least a few hundred. So I would propose a minimum of 500 years between SA and Tress.

 

Now, we just have to place Isles of the Emberdark after Tress, and we can do that with WOB from the Secret Project #5 Live Reveal and Stream.

 

So, Tress is at least 300 years after SA, and Isles of the Emberdark is after Tress, so there must be at least a 300 year gap between Isles and The Girl who Looked Up, with some extra padding for the time the Iriali spent on Lumar before leaving, and the time needed for the story to become a Rosharan folk tale.

Edit: I'll also add that Yolen being time-dilated in a way that makes it move much slower than the rest of the Cosmere seems like it would create massive difficulties for communicating with those on the planet, and we have evidence that Hoid, at least, is communicating with Frost who we know lives on planet in Isles of the Emberdark.

Some good points! The timing of things definitely isn't as neat as I thought it would be. But I do want to point out a few things.

One - using Tress as a benchmark assumes that Tress is a reliable benchmark, and I don't know how safe that assumption is, mainly for one thing - in the Rhythm of War Ars Arcanum, Khriss mentions that "Foil" (or Xisis) would be particularly interested in the discovery of anti-Investiture (or one of the RoW discoveries), and she explicitly mentions that he'd be interested "in his oceans" and that he wants to command the aethers. That would imply that Xisis was actually already on Lumar by the time of the Stormlight Archive.

That implication... really doesn't make sense, with what else we know about the Iri. But it doesn't make sense independent of Isles of the Emberdark. Possibly Xisis was on Lumar for a long time before revealing himself and forcing the Iri to move on, or possibly Lumar is undergoing hefty time dialation (which is possible, seeing as it has literal oceans of Investiture in one form or another).

 

Also on the time dilation communication - it likely would make things difficult. But, there's probably ways around it. Frost is sending letters, which seem to arrive as quickly as interplanetary mail would. We also know that dragons have some kind of communication power, and that several communication powers (spanreeds, seons) break relativity anyway. If the actual conversation would become difficult, Frost could also use something like bendalloy to speed up his relative time.

[Grailmoth]

41 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Some good points! The timing of things definitely isn't as neat as I thought it would be. But I do want to point out a few things.

One - using Tress as a benchmark assumes that Tress is a reliable benchmark, and I don't know how safe that assumption is, mainly for one thing - in the Rhythm of War Ars Arcanum, Khriss mentions that "Foil" (or Xisis) would be particularly interested in the discovery of anti-Investiture (or one of the RoW discoveries), and she explicitly mentions that he'd be interested "in his oceans" and that he wants to command the aethers. That would imply that Xisis was actually already on Lumar by the time of the Stormlight Archive.

That implication... really doesn't make sense, with what else we know about the Iri. But it doesn't make sense independent of Isles of the Emberdark. Possibly Xisis was on Lumar for a long time before revealing himself and forcing the Iri to move on, or possibly Lumar is undergoing hefty time dialation (which is possible, seeing as it has literal oceans of Investiture in one form or another).

 

Also on the time dilation communication - it likely would make things difficult. But, there's probably ways around it. Frost is sending letters, which seem to arrive as quickly as interplanetary mail would. We also know that dragons have some kind of communication power, and that several communication powers (spanreeds, seons) break relativity anyway. If the actual conversation would become difficult, Frost could also use something like bendalloy to speed up his relative time.

Those are great points, and I hadn't considered the Ars Arcanum entry. My one question that I have, is if the timings of the Ars Arcanum entries line up with their respective books. I was always under the impression that they were written after the fact, sort of Khriss chronicling the Cosmere and writing about the different investiture system. Working under that assumption, the note about Xisis and his oceans makes more sense and doesn't break the continuity.

 

And yes, you're right. There are probably shenanigans that could be done to account for time dilation with communication.

[PanicPug]

On 8/14/2024 at 4:12 AM, Cerulean said:

Guys i actually saw Esther the other day, she was running this art gallery at some ysa conference, and believe it or not she actually showed me some beta images for emberdark. it seems really cool, but the one  i remember was something like a treehouse, not sure if this is already leaked but...?

btw sorry if this is the wrong forum

I don't quite remember if she showed the painting or just the diorama she built for reference in a live stream at Dragonsteel headquarters a while ago: New Secret Project Livestream

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

One thing that kinda stuck out to me is that seemingly radiants would be able to travel FTL.

From dialouge it kinda looks like the radiant unaware of the prependicularity.

Which means they got there via different means, and the two contenders are
Shadesmar + Elsecalling
or genuine physical travel

And Shadesmar seems unrealistic cause then theyd probably be aware of the perpendicularity already
So that weirdly leaves us with probably genuine FTL which shouldn't be possible.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said:

One thing that kinda stuck out to me is that seemingly radiants would be able to travel FTL.

From dialouge it kinda looks like the radiant unaware of the prependicularity.

Which means they got there via different means, and the two contenders are
Shadesmar + Elsecalling
or genuine physical travel

And Shadesmar seems unrealistic cause then theyd probably be aware of the perpendicularity already
So that weirdly leaves us with probably genuine FTL which shouldn't be possible.

Oathgates and Elsecalling are FTL, they could use some portable fabrial or maybe Roshar have ships and bases scattered around Cosmere that Radiant can fly to. Elsecalling isn't just teleporting in and out of Shadesmar, you can also move around the Physical Realm - that's what happened during the Ashyn migration. 

Spoiler

Questioner

You've said previously that the Oathgates don't obey Physical Realm speed of light. Do they obey the speed of light in Shadesmar? Or are they tapping into the Spiritual Realm shenanigans?

Brandon Sanderson

They're tapping into Spiritual Realm shenanigans. An Elsecaller is capable of creating something that can teleport you faster than the speed of light.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)