Origin of the Unmade

[Aredor]

On 3/24/2024 at 7:43 AM, alder24 said:

Re-Shephir would be made out of 2 Shards+Odium, BAM out of 3+Odium and the last one to get added to Mishram was part of Honor's investiture, just before the False Desolation?

Circling back here, I think this line of thinking has merit. However, I posit a different idea. I think that BAM was made by both Honor and Cultivation like the Sibling before being unmade, giving her the third syllable. I'm reminded of this WoB:

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14590

 

 

Re-Shephir, Yelig-Nar, Sja-Anat, and Dai-Gontharnis all seem like they were created by a single Shard, then after their "improvements" they were given two syllables. 

I don't think that Nergaoul, Moelach, Chemoarish, or Ashertmarn were made by other Shards. I think that Odium made them himself, and because they are all... non-sapient that shows that Odium is bad at making stuff on his own.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Aredor said:

Circling back here, I think this line of thinking has merit. However, I posit a different idea. I think that BAM was made by both Honor and Cultivation like the Sibling before being unmade, giving her the third syllable. I'm reminded of this WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14590

 

 

Re-Shephir, Yelig-Nar, Sja-Anat, and Dai-Gontharnis all seem like they were created by a single Shard, then after their "improvements" they were given two syllables. 

Yes, that's even better idea.

12 hours ago, Aredor said:

I don't think that Nergaoul, Moelach, Chemoarish, or Ashertmarn were made by other Shards. I think that Odium made them himself, and because they are all... non-sapient that shows that Odium is bad at making stuff on his own.

Or he specifically made them non-sapient, thus less invested to avoid investing too much on Roshar as he didn't want to get trapped on it.

[Arkangel he/him]

On 3/30/2024 at 7:57 PM, Aredor said:

 

Re-Shephir, Yelig-Nar, Sja-Anat, and Dai-Gontharnis all seem like they were created by a single Shard, then after their "improvements" they were given two syllables. 

I don't think that Nergaoul, Moelach, Chemoarish, or Ashertmarn were made by other Shards. I think that Odium made them himself, and because they are all... non-sapient that shows that Odium is bad at making stuff on his own.

I like this idea. If we look at the single-name Unmade, at least the three we have seen, we can see that their powers are pretty Odium-centric. Nergaoul creates battle-rage, an all-encompassing passion for killing. Ashertmarn drives people to debauchery and excess, inflaming passion to mindless excess. Moelach is different in that he creates Death Rattles, manifesting Odium's future sight. 

[Forts Board]

I like where everyone is theorizing here. How will that affect stormlight 5 though? Thats what is really important haha. 

Spoiler

I have a feeling BAM is somewhere in Shinovar and its going to be a race to get to her first. 

 

[Arkangel he/him]

5 hours ago, Forts Board said:

I like where everyone is theorizing here. How will that affect stormlight 5 though? Thats what is really important haha. 

  Hide contents

I have a feeling BAM is somewhere in Shinovar and its going to be a race to get to her first. 

 

I think so too since there seems to be an emphasis on that area.

SA5 theory with a little TSM sprinkled in:

Spoiler

As I have theorized earlier in this topic, I believe that the Unmade and the Charred are created in a similar fashion. One form of Investiture is corrupted by another and then implanted into a host.

In TSM, Sigzil found a way to siphon off part of the corruption which, in the case of the Charred, broke Connection with the Cinder King. I'm wondering if Brandon is seeding these plot point hints ahead of time and will use a similar process to help break Odium's Connection to the Unmade...in particular Ba-Ado-Mishram.

 

[Leuthie]

On 4/3/2024 at 4:35 AM, Forts Board said:

I like where everyone is theorizing here. How will that affect stormlight 5 though? Thats what is really important haha. 

  Hide contents

I have a feeling BAM is somewhere in Shinovar and its going to be a race to get to her first. 

 

I don't think we'll get much information about the Unmade until the back 5.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:57 PM, Aredor said:

Circling back here, I think this line of thinking has merit. However, I posit a different idea. I think that BAM was made by both Honor and Cultivation like the Sibling before being unmade, giving her the third syllable.

I subscribe to this as well. To add some more merit here: why is the Sibling called the Sibling? You inherently have to have another one for the name to make sense. I guess you could sort of say Sibling of Stormfather and Nightwatcher, but that doesn't seem to fit as well as if BAM was really the first one and this is their Sibling. And it really feels like one of those clues where you *think* you know what it means until you learn the real meaning and then it makes way more sense. Brandon has done things like that before.

Edited April 12 by Dreamwa1ker

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:40 PM, Treach said:

5) Brandon has been coy enough with answers that we we can speculate the earthquake on Sel may have been a result of something that happened on Roshar. I don't think we have a precise enough timeline on the events of Elantris to pin point what it could have been, but the imprisonment of BAM could fit I think? If that were the case, we could probably speculate further on Yelig-Nar and Ba-Ado-Mishram having connections to Dominion and Devotion.

That's a very interesting thought, and one that gives me a lot to think about. My only issue (if it can really be called that) is the, almost certainly, extreme time dilation happening on Sel. Without Brandon nailing that down, we currently don't really have any way to call out specifics in a timeline between Sel and any other planet in the Cosmere.

[alder24]

On 3/25/2024 at 5:40 PM, Treach said:

5) Brandon has been coy enough with answers that we we can speculate the earthquake on Sel may have been a result of something that happened on Roshar. I don't think we have a precise enough timeline on the events of Elantris to pin point what it could have been, but the imprisonment of BAM could fit I think? If that were the case, we could probably speculate further on Yelig-Nar and Ba-Ado-Mishram having connections to Dominion and Devotion.

16 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

That's a very interesting thought, and one that gives me a lot to think about. My only issue (if it can really be called that) is the, almost certainly, extreme time dilation happening on Sel. Without Brandon nailing that down, we currently don't really have any way to call out specifics in a timeline between Sel and any other planet in the Cosmere.

Reod didn't happen at the same time as the Recreance and the imprisonment of BAM. Those events aren't related. 

Spoiler

AkaBesd

Did the Reod coincide with the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

These two are not at the same time, but good question.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 14, 2018)

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:46 PM, alder24 said:

Reod didn't happen at the same time as the Recreance and the imprisonment of BAM. Those events aren't related. 

  Hide contents

AkaBesd

Did the Reod coincide with the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

These two are not at the same time, but good question.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 14, 2018)

That's fair, but initially it seemed like Brandon had some sneaky sneaks plans for the bending of timelines around dilation of massive investiture that has sort of become more of a headache, based on things he's said. No matter how much of that is in the master plan or not, there is still clearly some shenanigans around time (Natural lifespans vs immortality, when did two events on different planets happen in relation to each other, etc) going on, and we really don't know until that's canonized.

You could even argue that the WoB you shared, is being purposely misleading with the amount of time dilation that would be required having Dev/Dom trapped in the CR of Sel. I doubt that he actually was doing that (but the argument could be made, is what I'm saying), but having the near equivalent of a black hole on your planet most certainly makes nailing down anything that we've seen happen on Sel to a specific date, extremely difficult. Best we have at the moment about Sel events as relates to Scadrial and Roshar, is Kaise's lifespan (if it's a totally natural one, that is). 

Edited April 18 by JohnnyKaizen

[Treach]

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

Reod didn't happen at the same time as the Recreance and the imprisonment of BAM. Those events aren't related. 

  Hide contents

AkaBesd

Did the Reod coincide with the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

These two are not at the same time, but good question.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 14, 2018)

Worth noting that the Reod and Recreance not happening at the same time does not tell us anything as to how the Reod relates to the Imprisonment of BAM.

[Argenti he/him]

54 minutes ago, Treach said:

Worth noting that the Reod and Recreance not happening at the same time does not tell us anything as to how the Reod relates to the Imprisonment of BAM.

The imprisonment of BAM happened shortly before the recreance.

[Treach]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

The imprisonment of BAM happened shortly before the recreance.

Correct. The Reod and Imprisonment of BAM could have happened at the same time. I'm not saying it did, or that its even likely, but the WOB does not eliminate the possibility. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treach said:

Worth noting that the Reod and Recreance not happening at the same time does not tell us anything as to how the Reod relates to the Imprisonment of BAM.

18 minutes ago, Treach said:

Correct. The Reod and Imprisonment of BAM could have happened at the same time. I'm not saying it did, or that its even likely, but the WOB does not eliminate the possibility. 

The Recreance happened directly after the imprisonment of BAM, they both happened at the same time. The WoB quite definitely eliminates this possibility. 

[Treach]

Just now, alder24 said:

The Recreance happened directly after the imprisonment of BAM, they both happened at the same time. The WoB quite definitely eliminates this possibility. 

"After" and "at the same time" are literally mutually exclusive. You're disproving your point in your own statement. 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Treach said:

"After" and "at the same time" are literally mutually exclusive. You're disproving your point in your own statement. 

Let's start comparing anything to the Planck time and on that scale nothing happens at the same time. Sure, theoretically Recreanse came after BAM imprisonment, practically those are so close together that in the context of this question, those events can be treated as one. If you were onto something Brandon would either RAFO the question, or answer "they are close."

Those events aren't related and it's hard for them to be related in any way. They happened on two different planets, BAM is Odium's Splinter (what she was before doesn't matter anymore as Unmaking essentially killed all of it), she is unable to leave Roshar, or reach to another planet because of her very nature she is trapped on Roshar. Imprisonment of BAM didn't break the land on Roshar, so it's even less likely that it would somehow break the ground on Sel. BAM created a scar in Rosharan SR, not PR, on Sel SR doesn't matter for AonDor. 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

48 minutes ago, Treach said:

Correct. The Reod and Imprisonment of BAM could have happened at the same time. I'm not saying it did, or that its even likely, but the WOB does not eliminate the possibility. 

 

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Let's start comparing anything to the Planck time and on that scale nothing happens at the same time. Sure, theoretically Recreanse came after BAM imprisonment, practically those are so close together that in the context of this question, those events can be treated as one. If you were onto something Brandon would either RAFO the question, or answer "they are close."

Those events aren't related and it's hard for them to be related in any way. They happened on two different planets, BAM is Odium's Splinter (what she was before doesn't matter anymore as Unmaking essentially killed all of it), she is unable to leave Roshar, or reach to another planet because of her very nature she is trapped on Roshar. Imprisonment of BAM didn't break the land on Roshar, so it's even less likely that it would somehow break the ground on Sel. BAM created a scar in Rosharan SR, not PR, on Sel SR doesn't matter for AonDor. 

In addition I believe Elantris currently is suppose to be happening a bit before SA 1-5 (based on TLM), and BAM was imprisoned well over a thousand years ago before the Reod could have.

[Argenti he/him]

As far as We can tell, the binding of BAM has pretty much just messed with the connections and identity of beings native to roshar, and roshar it's self. Theirs no reason for BAM to affect Sel, anymore then the everstorm would effect Returned on Nalthis.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Let's start comparing anything to the Planck time and on that scale nothing happens at the same time. Sure, theoretically Recreanse came after BAM imprisonment, practically those are so close together that in the context of this question, those events can be treated as one. If you were onto something Brandon would either RAFO the question, or answer "they are close."

Those events aren't related and it's hard for them to be related in any way. They happened on two different planets, BAM is Odium's Splinter (what she was before doesn't matter anymore as Unmaking essentially killed all of it), she is unable to leave Roshar, or reach to another planet because of her very nature she is trapped on Roshar. Imprisonment of BAM didn't break the land on Roshar, so it's even less likely that it would somehow break the ground on Sel. BAM created a scar in Rosharan SR, not PR, on Sel SR doesn't matter for AonDor. 

You make valid and logical arguments here, and for the most part I am in agreement with you. I am however sticking to my issues with time dilation, only because Brandon is still almost entirely tight lipped about it. I am highly in doubt that BAM's imprisonment had a direct connection to Sel, for the reasons you point out. Unless there is some critical info we are missing, it would be strange that her imprisonment caused an earthquake on Sel. Technically however, the events of Elantris could have happened thousands of years before SA, and yet you've got some contemporaries of those events worldhopping into the Cosmere's future (as demonstrated with Kaise's involement). So yeah, there could be thousands of years and minutes between certain events regarding Sel and the rest of the Cosmere. In fact, there are. There has to be with what Brandon has said about time manipulation. I just keep coming back to, you can't make any predictions about what happened on Sel, and when, until we get a canonized timeline.

As to BAM's imprisonment happening at some point during the False Desolation and sometime after that the Recreance occurred, there is a good bit of wiggle room. Did the Radiants capture her and then go, "Welp, things are too dangerous, better break our oaths and shut this down" immediately? Narratively, it seems to me that with the fused gone, BAM captured, and 99.9% of Singers in slave form, that something more than what we currently know happened to cause the Knights and the spren to initiate the Recreance? I get the explanation we're given in RoW, but with the war seeminly won, and the oathpact holding..what was the rush? Was it days? Weeks? Years? I know it was "close" but we've been told time and again that the timelines from the Recreance on back, are in serious doubt.

As to your assertion that Brandon would have RAFO'd the question if it was correct..I'm not convinced on that point. He is generally pretty up front with Q&A, but he has also withheld RAFOs many times in the past, until a questioner doggedly pursues a detail, at which point it's RAFO'd. I mean, how many times has he said something along the lines of "You're really not gonna let me off the hook with this one...RAFO" Even with the WoB, which does seem cut and dry, it could turn into a very different discussion if more specific questions were asked. I am personally not convinced that the WoB confirms a whole lot based on the limited questioning. I have been proven correct before about Brandon's sneakiness, and I've been 100% wrong as well. I personally feel that I'd rather say something along the lines of, "This seems to be certain (baring future WoB and/or books) that this is/is not the case" vs outright stating, "This definitely isn't the way it happened." That's a difference in personal preference though, and not really worth arguing about. Another approach that's pretty common is, "I'm gonna stick to my theory forever, come what may." Also not worth arguing about 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I am however sticking to my issues with time dilation, only because Brandon is still almost entirely tight lipped about it.

Time dilation causes no issues here as the question was about those events happening at the same time, which doesn't change with time dilation. If imprisonment of BAM did cause chasm on Sel, then this would happen immediately after (through Connection or SR thus time doesn't matter to it). Time dilation only changes time passage for Sel in comparison to Roshar. This would mean that on Roshar 2500 years passed, on Sel only 1000 for example, but those events would still happen at the same time from both perspectives. 

Here is more about time dilation from WoBs:

Spoiler

Argent

We've always understood Elantris to be one of the earliest books in the Cosmere, but we see Kaise as Codenames in The Lost Metal, one of the latest books. Has the timeline contracted significantly, or are we just looking at the typical Shadesmar time dilation tricks?

Brandon Sanderson

So, here's thing, Argent. I'm not going to be able to give you strict timelines until I write Elantris 2 and 3. So my plan, originally, which might have been a bad plan, was Elantris 2 to take place some ten or fifteen years after Elantris 1. Maybe a little less than that. But years have passed. It was called Dakhor, in my notes. And then for 3 to be hundreds of years later. I don't know if that's the right move anymore, and if 3 isn't hundreds of years later, then where we slot Elantris in is going to change because of where I need certain characters to be in some of these things, and certain things to happen. We are getting really close to where this is going to be nailed down and locked down, and I'll get locked down. Probably right when we start Era 3 is when all of this is just gonna start... I've promised you guys a timeline. Once we've released that, we don't want to retcon it, does that make sense? So that's why we're waiting to release it.

But Kaise does have some time dilation going on, though. Though I say her name wrong because I'm not from Sel. But yeah, she has time dilation going on, she is... yeah. More time has passed than the ten or so years that... she's like what, 7 in Elantris? And she's like young 20s now, visibly, the age that she appears. I believe, something like that. So yeah, there you go. There's some information for you on that. I'm playing loose and free with this until I really get down to writing these. My loose plan is still write Mistborn Era 3 book 1, Elantris 2, Era 3 book 2, Elantris 3, Era 3 book 3. Five years of writing there that I can't even really think about until I've got Stormlight 5 in Tor's hands, if not your hands.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

thedoctor692

[theory about time dilation with regards to Selish characters in The Lost Metal]

Peter Ahlstrom

Personally I think that Brandon is just moving Elantris in the timeline

General Reddit 2022 (Nov. 6, 2022)

 

4 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

As to BAM's imprisonment happening at some point during the False Desolation and sometime after that the Recreance occurred, there is a good bit of wiggle room. Did the Radiants capture her and then go, "Welp, things are too dangerous, better break our oaths and shut this down" immediately? Narratively, it seems to me that with the fused gone, BAM captured, and 99.9% of Singers in slave form, that something more than what we currently know happened to cause the Knights and the spren to initiate the Recreance? I get the explanation we're given in RoW, but with the war seeminly won, and the oathpact holding..what was the rush? Was it days? Weeks? Years? I know it was "close" but we've been told time and again that the timelines from the Recreance on back, are in serious doubt.

The fighting was still going on near the Feverstone Keep, from this we know that the imprisonment of BAM was directly before the Recreance, because Singers with broken minds and no forms can't fight. No Fused were present during the False Desolation. This is how it had to go: 

1. Singers fought, Radiant sent a team to capture BAM.
2. BAM was imprisoned, all Singers turned into Slaveform, fighting immediately stopped. The False Desolation is over.
3. At the same time Radiants realized what a terrible thing they'd done, they'd basically destroyed an entire species capable of thinking, they'd dealt a brutal wound to Roshar, which by Sibling's words "touched all who belonged to Roshar. Spren too." Radiants or their spren would have felt that. Just how they'd feared, just like Honor said, they realized that they are on the way to destroy Roshar with their Surgebinding.
4. They independently decided to abandon their Oaths to prevent a total destruction of Roshar, just like what had happened on Ashyn, those fighting near the Feverstone Keep were the first one to abandon their Ideals. Over the next few days all Radiant orders, except for Skybreakers, broke their Oaths. The Recreance is over just days after the imprisonment of BAM. 

Recreance started at the same day as the imprisonment of BAM, otherwise soldiers at the Feverstone Keep would have known that the fighting stopped. It lasted just a few days. From the perspective of this theory, those events happened at the same time. WoK ch 52:

Quote

“It has to be the rear defense force,” one soldier muttered. “They can’t have gotten through our lines. Not with the Radiants ghting. …”
[...]
“But why?” the darkeyed ocer demanded. “Why are Radiants coming here? They should be ghting the devils on the front lines!”

RoW ch 49:

Quote

The Sibling fell silent for a time, and Navani wondered if she had pushed the spren too far. Fortunately they spoke again, softly. I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.
Navani covered her shock. “You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”
Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

 

Spoiler

Questioner: (paraphrased)

In RoW was see Kaladin telling Syl that he believes that the Recreance took place not as one event such as fever stone keep, but on an individual basis. This has created many discussions in the fandom about how the spren could have been unaware that they would become deadeye's. Is this because it took people years later to discover how to summon and dismiss shards through an ornementation mishap, and deadeye's weren't seen by the other spren in shadesmar until there was no stopping anyone. 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The recreance wasn't something that happened over months, more like days. And the decision was made in the heat of the moment by the spren and their knights.

Footnote: I don't have the exact wording unfortunately, but he did say 'days not months' and explained that this was something that he hoped to be totally cleared up by the end of book 5. 
Miscellaneous 2021 (July 1, 2021)

 

4 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

As to your assertion that Brandon would have RAFO'd the question if it was correct..I'm not convinced on that point. He is generally pretty up front with Q&A, but he has also withheld RAFOs many times in the past, until a questioner doggedly pursues a detail, at which point it's RAFO'd. I mean, how many times has he said something along the lines of "You're really not gonna let me off the hook with this one...RAFO" Even with the WoB, which does seem cut and dry, it could turn into a very different discussion if more specific questions were asked. I am personally not convinced that the WoB confirms a whole lot based on the limited questioning. I have been proven correct before about Brandon's sneakiness, and I've been 100% wrong as well. I personally feel that I'd rather say something along the lines of, "This seems to be certain (baring future WoB and/or books) that this is/is not the case" vs outright stating, "This definitely isn't the way it happened." That's a difference in personal preference though, and not really worth arguing about. Another approach that's pretty common is, "I'm gonna stick to my theory forever, come what may." Also not worth arguing about 

You said it yourself, Brandon would try to dodge the question, if it was onto something. He didn't dodge anything, he straight up answered "These two are not at the same time." That's definitive. Time dilation can't provide any explanation as with or without it, they would still have to happen at the same time for this to work. I don't see any way in which those events didn't happen at the same time, yet one caused the other, unless BAM had a giant laser which shot its beam at Sel when she was captured, traveled for years and hit Arelon causing the creation of the chasm. Only then you have a few year gap in between those events and only then time dilation would matter as we now are talking on how long was the gap between firing the laser and the laser hitting Sel, which differs from those perspectives. But let's be real, no lasers were involved.