laserz667 Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 How many spikes can one person hold? What happens if a spike is melted down and possibly combined with another metal? How does stealing identity work? SO MANY QUESTIONS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Just now, laserz667 said: How many spikes can one person hold? Since the Catacendre, there is now a limit to that. Back in Era 1 Marsh was implanted with over 20 Spikes, you can't do that anymore. We know you can have a minimum of 5 Spikes, but I think that the limit is lower than 11 so there won't be any new Steel Inquisitors. This is due to Ruin no longer pushing on the fabric of Scadrial and the Shard's current subservience to Preservation within Harmony. Not a deliberate effect, it just kind of happened. 2 minutes ago, laserz667 said: What happens if a spike is melted down and possibly combined with another metal? If it's melted down then the Investiture within will likely be affected in someway, though you wouldn't be able to use it snce you can't just stab yourself with molten metal, that's just silly. Alloying a Spike with another metal will have the same effect as alloying a Feruchemist's metalminds, the Investiture within becomes trapped and can no longer be used. 4 minutes ago, laserz667 said: How does stealing identity work? From what is said, most Spikes steal some Identity. If you spiked a Feruchemist, then gave yourself their power, you might have enough of their Identity to use their Metalminds. Identity Contamination is a thing, which interferes with doing stuff like Compounding for reasons we aren't quite clear on yet. Spikes are Keyed to their 'Donor's' Identity much like how a Metalmind is. Duraluminum steals both Identity and Connection, meaning you could use it to hack various magics in certain ways. For the Idenitity part you could use it to access another Feruchemist's metalminds. For Connection you could speak another lands language via a human sacrifice and probably do some crazy stuff on Sel, where Connection to a specific land is a major part to gaining magic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our he/him Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 19 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Back in Era 1 Marsh was implanted with over 20 Spikes, you can't do that anymore. He had 22 spikes that we know of, as he added his F-Atium spike after Ruin's fall. 29 minutes ago, laserz667 said: SO MANY QUESTIONS Shoot them our way and we'll be happy to let you know what we know 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 @JustQuestin2004 answered your questions already, but I'm gonna do what I do the best - add more and throw some WoBs at you! 7 hours ago, laserz667 said: How many spikes can one person hold? There is a limit on how many spikes a soul can handle. The more spikes you have, the greater the mental and physical impacts of them are on you. They break you down, they crack your soul - that's why with many spikes a linchpin spike is needed as it holds your soul together. After the Catacendre the limit is 4 spikes, after which a soul would reject any new spikes, but the Set found the way to sidestep this limit by using a Trellium spike, which allowed them to have 5 spikes. But there are ways of magnifying a charge of one spike, you can potentially even steal multiple powers with a single spike, or multiple chargers, but this was not discovered yet. TLM Ars Arcanum: Quote Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony. The level of corruption of a soul that was possible in ancient days is no longer viable; if too many spikes are added, souls stop gaining powers. Marsh doesn’t think this is a conscious decision on Harmony’s part. Indeed, I think this is beyond the conscious abilities of even a Shard. Instead, I believe this is the nature of souls (read: the Invested portion of a person’s nature) and their balance with the cosmere. In the ancient days, Ruin was pushing hard on the fabric of Scadrial, leaking into spirit- webs through any method possible. Causing souls to decay faster, to accept more spikes than they should have been able to, and leaving the resulting person burdened beyond what was reasonable. At any rate, the end result is a limit on the number of spikes a person can hold without external intervention Spoiler Miss_Silver Is there a maximum number of spikes a person can have? Would having more spikes eventually cause issues, be it mental or physical limitations? Also do the benefits from spikes have some form of diminishing returns, or could some one have like, 200 bronze spikes and be able to sense a person burning metal through copper from 50 miles away? Brandon Sanderson 1) Yes, it would cause big issues. 2) #1 interferes greatly with what you would like to do here, but there are other ways of magnifying the powers to the extent you postulate. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) Spoiler yulerule Can you reuse a spike? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound. yulerule Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change? Brandon Sanderson Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity-- yulerule So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again? Brandon Sanderson Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Spoiler Aerlion Is it possible to use Hemalurgic spikes to steal multiple attributes from the same person? Brandon Sanderson No. At least, this isn't thought to be possible General Signed Books 2018 (March 20, 2018) 7 hours ago, laserz667 said: What happens if a spike is melted down and possibly combined with another metal? A molten metal can still be used in Metallic Arts, but that's not a pleasant experience. However just melting a spike down, reshaping and letting it cool down won't change the charge of the spike and it would still be usable, with some decay happening. Alloying it with another metal would mess things up. Just like in metalminds, the charge is tied to the atomic structure of a metal. If you take an iron spike that holds strength and mix it with carbon to get a steel spike, that charge is now not aligned with the atomic structure of a spike, as steel steals physical Allomantic powers. So the charge would be there, but you most likely won't be able to use it. If you then melt that steel spike down and separate iron from carbon, the iron spike would regain its usability. However, It's worth noticing that Hemalurgy might be different than how it works with Metalminds - in BoM it was said that ReLuur's Blessings are made out of pewter (steals physical Feruchemical powers), which is not a metal used for Blessings. Moreover Paalm (Lessie) had her one spike made out of Trellium, charged with either Allomancy or Feruchemy, that worked like a Blessing to her. We don't know how they made it, or what was ReLuur's Blessing charged with, but this shows us that there are other uses for metals outside of what the HoA Hemalurgic table has shown us, and it's possible that melting and alloying a charged spike might not make it unusable, as it would happen with Metalminds. Binding Points and Intent plays a crucial role in Hemalurgy, so you might be able to do fancy stuff with metals outside of their traditional use. Spoiler Nethseäar Can you burn or Feruchemically fill molten metal? Assuming, you know, that was something you wanted to do. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you should be able to but that would be very nasty. Nethseäar Would it affect the Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it would affect the Investiture. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Spoiler ntdfbladez (paraphrased) If a metalmind is melted down and changes shape, does it still retain its power? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, only by mixing it with other metals would the power be completely lost. Also if any pieces of the metalmind are lost, then some of the power will be lost (as it would be in the missing pieces). Rithmatist Houston signing (May 20, 2013) Spoiler Questioner So, about Feruchemy. If someone takes, for example, a copper metalmind, fills it with memories, and then a tin metalmind, fills it with senses, then melts them together into a bronze metalmind, would you be able to tap anything from it, and what? Brandon Sanderson If you made an alloy of them, you would not get anything out of them. You would know there's Investiture in there, but you wouldn't be able to pull it out. Questioner Even if it's your own? Brandon Sanderson Even if it's your own, yup. They would interfere with each other to the point that you wouldn't be able to get anything out. Sorry. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) Spoiler Rogaen What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again? Brandon Sanderson If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.) This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO. eSPiaLx Similarly, if you were to soulcast a metal would it have similar effects of corrupting the investiture and making it inaccessible? Like if you turned a steel metalmind into pewter. Brandon Sanderson I've stayed away from soulcasting and forging in these types of discussions, as I feel my answers will dig too deeply and prompt more questions that, eventually, will lead to lots of RAFO type questions. I don't really want to go there--but I will say this. Changing invested objects with other magics is hard, and often requires such a force of investiture yourself, that it becomes very power-inefficient. Just like we can technically turn lead into gold right now--by spending way more money than the gold is worth. BipedSnowman So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture? OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope? Brandon Sanderson I see no reason why these wouldn't work. dce42 So would forging with the blood of a radiant(kaladin, dalinar,etc) work on a shard blade from a fallen radiant to say change who they had bonded, or how the bond was broken (to say death instead of giving up on the oath)? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 11, 2016) 7 hours ago, laserz667 said: How does stealing identity work? We don't have a full picture yet. This is something that Brandon keeps for the future books. What we know is that Identity works like some kind of encryption key, that codes investiture to a person, so that only they can use it. A Feruchemist fills a metalmind that only he can use, because investiture in that metalmind is keyed to them via Identity. If you steal Identity you would be able to use all metalminds, Breaths, or some other investiture they were using, IF you also have that power yourself. So if you are a Feruchemist, you would be able to use all metalminds of a person you've stolen Identity from. But stealing anything from them will carry a part of their identity, often enough so you can also use their metalminds - so just stealing their Feruchemical powers will give you enough of their Identity that you would be able to access their metalminds of this specific power you have stolen (and powers you already have). What's more, is that the victim if they survive, now would likely have no Identity at all. That makes them susceptible to all kinds of interactions in Cosmere. But also it might be possible that for example if they retain their Feruchemical powers, they would be creating from this point on unkeyed metalminds - metalminds that all other Feruchemist with that power can access. Being without Identity also makes it easier for you to use someone else's stuff, but some other steps might be needed too. Moreover, Identity seems to be tied to healing in a big way, so by stealing someone else's Identity, you might be able to change the way you can heal yourself. This is more speculative but Brandon confirmed that healing is affected by Identity in some way. BoM ch 3: Quote “Identity,” VenDell said, slapping his reed against the wall, casting a shadow on the image. “Lord Ladrian, could another Feruchemist use your metalminds?” “Of course not,” Wax said. “Everyone knows that.” “Why?” “Well … because. They’re mine.” [...] “The raw power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy,” VenDell said, “is something we call Investiture. This is very important, as in Feruchemy, an individual’s Investiture is keyed specifically to them. To what we call Identity.” “You’ve made me curious,” Wax said, looking at the wall as VenDell leisurely walked back to his machine. “How does it know? My metalminds … do they recognize me?” “After a fashion,” VenDell said, changing the image to one of a Feruchemist tapping strength. The woman’s muscles had grown to several times their normal size as she lifted a horse above her head. “Each man or woman has a Spiritual aspect, a piece of themselves that exists in another Realm entirely. You might call it your soul. Your Investiture is keyed to your soul—indeed, it might be a part of your soul, much as your blood is a part of your body.” “So if a person could store their Identity,” Marasi said, “as Waxillium does with his weight…” “They’d be without it for a time,” VenDell said. “A blank slate, so to speak.” “So they could use anyone’s metalmind?” Marasi asked. “Possibly,” VenDell said. [...] “Some have been experimenting with your idea,” VenDell said, “and early results are promising." Spoiler Paleo Then we also talked about, theorized about unkeyed metalminds - that is Identity-less ones that anybody can that has the power can tap. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Paleo We also were wondering is it like, we compared it to cryptography and encryption, stuff like that. Is it just that like, your Identity is sort of this unique encryption key. Brandon Sanderson And you need a key to you getting it. That's a valid line of theorizing. It is not exactly but it's close enough to be a good model. [...] Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019) Spoiler Lucadaw If someone used Hemalurgy to take someones Feruchemical abilities would they be able to use that persons personal metalminds? Most relevantly perhaps to take that person's knowledge from their copperminds? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Lucadaw If someone stored their identity in an aluminium metalmind, then had their powers and metalminds stolen via Hemalurgy, then the person who took the powers used the aluminium metalmind to draw out the first persons identity would it permanently overwrite their personality with the original persons ? ( would kind of be a long winded way of stealing someone else's body and becoming immortal ) Brandon Sanderson All Identity questions are a RAFO until I deal with it more in the books. (Sorry.) WeiryWriter (in response to the first answer) If the spike granting Feruchemy were to be reforged/split into two distinct spikes which are then implanted into two different people, could those two people "share" a metalmind (as in actually be able to tap something the other stored and vice versa?). Brandon Sanderson It's complicated, but no. There would be too much of the other person mixed in. Both could use the metalminds of the person the Feruchemy was stolen from, but when they made their own, their own Identity would "muddy" the creation. Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 7, 2015) Spoiler Yata If a Ferring creates a metalmind and then loses his power (for example through Hemalurgy), could he still use his previous-made metalmind ? Brandon Sanderson No, he could not. And, unfortunately, the person who stole a bit of his soul would probably be keyed with enough Identity to use his metalmind. (This is uncertain, though, based on how much of the soul got ripped off, and how much the spike has decayed.) /r/books AMA 2015 (Sept. 3, 2015) Spoiler sebarial Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day. Brandon Sanderson Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list. [...] /r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015) Spoiler realhitvz Could you use the Feruchemical ability to store Identity to heal damage done to you in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Um... yes, but it's gonna take a roundabout method to make it happen... Yes, but Identity can be very useful for all sorts of things like this. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Spoiler Illuminarrator (paraphrased) Is there an Awakening Command that could stick a Cognitive Shadow to a corpse? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, but that would be a bad way to do it. You'd need something more. Illuminarrator (paraphrased) More Investiture? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Not necessarily. The body at that point died because something happened to it, plus it started decomposing. You'd need to do something to it to really get the Cognitive Shadow to stick. Illuminarrator (paraphrased) like a Hemalurgic spike? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) That's one way to do it. Illuminarrator (paraphrased) Oh! To follow up... because Regrowth is Spiritual... if a Cognitive Shadow was Awakened into a corpse, then healed with Regrowth, would the body be healed to appear like the Cognitive Shadow's body? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No, it would heal... wait, yes, Regrowth would heal based on the Identity of the Cognitive Shadow attached to it. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 20, 2023) Spoiler Krios (paraphrased) If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 40 minutes ago, alder24 said: After the Catacendre the limit is 4 spikes, after which a soul would reject any new spikes, but the Set found the way to sidestep this limit by using a Trellium spike, which allowed them to have 5 spikes. "Long, deeply frustrated sigh" Okay, one more time: We don't know exactly how many Spikes a person can get powers from, what you are describing is not on how many Spikes you can have in total, it is the limit how many spikes you can have before becoming vulnerable to direct external control, 4 spikes is the minimum needed to control someone through the cracks in the spiritweb. The Koloss can be controlled through emotional allomancy due to having 4 spikes, the Steel Inquisitors can be controlled due to having 11 Spikes. What the Set managed to do was use Trellium to prevent themselves from being controlled by Harmony when they use 4 or more Spikes, though this came at the cost of being controllable by Autonomy when near-dead. Dumad, the Set's 'Anti-Wax' member in TLM had 5 Spikes, granting him allomantic pewter, steel, duralumin, bronze and chromium. That means the 'power spike' limit is a minimum of 5 spikes, maybe more but we don't know for sure. It's probably less than 11 in my opinion. I've seen people make this assumption several times before, and it's still not correct. 4 Spikes and you're vulnerable to mind-control, the limit of power spikes is unknown. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 1 minute ago, JustQuestin2004 said: "Long, deeply frustrated sigh" Okay, one more time: We don't know exactly how many Spikes a person can get powers from, what you are describing is not on how many Spikes you can have in total, it is the limit how many spikes you can have before becoming vulnerable to direct external control, 4 spikes is the minimum needed to control someone through the cracks in the spiritweb. The Koloss can be controlled through emotional allomancy due to having 4 spikes, the Steel Inquisitors can be controlled due to having 11 Spikes. What the Set managed to do was use Trellium to prevent themselves from being controlled by Harmony when they use 4 or more Spikes, though this came at the cost of being controllable by Autonomy when near-dead. Dumad, the Set's 'Anti-Wax' member in TLM had 5 Spikes, granting him allomantic pewter, steel, duralumin, bronze and chromium. That means the 'power spike' limit is a minimum of 5 spikes, maybe more but we don't know for sure. It's probably less than 11 in my opinion. I've seen people make this assumption several times before, and it's still not correct. 4 Spikes and you're vulnerable to mind-control, the limit of power spikes is unknown. True, you're right, my mistake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Just now, alder24 said: True, you're right, my mistake. Just doing my part. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laserz667 Posted April 13 Author Report Share Posted April 13 Could you use hemalurgy to bond a radiant spren? How large (or small) can a spike be for it to be effective? Can you steal an attribute from someone who has been spiked and take that power? For example, if I spiked someone who was using a steel spike to give them pewter could it take the pewter? Completely unrelated to hemalurgy, how does compounding a coppermind work? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux he/him Posted April 13 Report Share Posted April 13 2 hours ago, laserz667 said: Could you use hemalurgy to bond a radiant spren? Technically you can steal a Radiant Bond, but the spren still has Autonomy to terminate the bond from their side. 2 hours ago, laserz667 said: How large (or small) can a spike be for it to be effective? I don't think we've seen an upper limit, though Inquisitor spikes are quite large and Spook had a piece of broken sword in his shoulder. For small, define effective. Vin could pierce copperclouds and hear the Well of Ascension while wearing a simple stud earring, which is pretty small. 2 hours ago, laserz667 said: Can you steal an attribute from someone who has been spiked and take that power? For example, if I spiked someone who was using a steel spike to give them pewter could it take the pewter? I'm going to guess a negative on this one. The fragment of soul in the spike gets hot wired into the spiritweb granting the power so presumably that portion is still located in the spike. Besides, if you could kill them with a spike, you're probably in a position to harvest the spike granting pewter anyway. If you want to peruse the basis of our knowledge: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?tags=hemalurgy https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted April 13 Report Share Posted April 13 11 hours ago, laserz667 said: Could you use hemalurgy to bond a radiant spren? Yes, but as said by Duxredux, the spren can just break the bond at will. You can steal a dead Shardblade, but if you want to steal Surgebinding powers, you would have to steal both the bond from a Radiant (which is Connection) and the power from a spren, which would require you to use two spikes. Spoiler Questioner So, the fan page wanted to know. Would it be possible for Hemalurgy to steal a living Shardblade? That was the top voted question. Brandon Sanderson Ok, so you're bonded to a Shardblade. You get spiked, then they spike off the bond so that the Shardblade is bonded to someone else. Questioner I assume so... Brandon Sanderson But can they do it with a living Shardblade? You can definitely do it with a dead Shardblade because its just stealing the Connection. With a living Shardblade, yes you could do that 'though the spren could break the bond at will. Questioner So the spren would survive? That was the second-- the corollary-- Brandon Sanderson Ehhh. Would the spren survive? The spren would survive as long as the oaths were-- Questioner Intact? Brandon Sanderson --the person didn't break the oaths. But you could theoretically steal the bond, break the oaths, and kill the spren. If you wanted to. Its a very convoluted to kill a spren, they are easier to kill than that, but yes. You could do that. That is a viable but twisted route that you can do. You would end up with a dead spren and a Shardblade, so there is that. But there are easier ways to accomplish that... White Sand vol.1 Orem signing (June 29, 2016) Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work. Questioner (paraphrased) Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection. GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017) 11 hours ago, laserz667 said: How large (or small) can a spike be for it to be effective? We don't know. They can be quite small or irregular, but I guess they have to be small enough to precisely pierce the binding point you're aiming for. Hitting two different binding points at once would make the spike not work - heart has 4 points for example. 11 hours ago, laserz667 said: Can you steal an attribute from someone who has been spiked and take that power? For example, if I spiked someone who was using a steel spike to give them pewter could it take the pewter? No, the power is contained in the spike, it's not really a part of your soul, as it's not yours. It's in the spike so you would have to take that spike out and spike yourself with it to get that power. 11 hours ago, laserz667 said: Completely unrelated to hemalurgy, how does compounding a coppermind work? We don't know. Some theorize that it creates an ideal copy of a memory, some think it creates a vision-like state in which you can relive that memory, but we don't know in the end. By Brandon's words, not every attribute compounded does something spectacular or useful. Spoiler Questioner And how does Copper compounding work? Memories can't really get (indistinct...) Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that some sorts of compounding are more effective than others. Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017) Spoiler Questioner I was wondering what happens when you compound copper? Brandon Sanderson I will reveal this eventually. You're getting a RAFO. Do know that not all compounding does cool stuff. Not all of it does cool stuff, but a lot of it does cool stuff. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) Spoiler FireArcadia Is there any use to being a copper Compounder, from a Feruchemical point of view? I think the same point would also apply to an aluminum Compounder. Brandon Sanderson Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful. That said, being able to Compound copper...that could do some things. Aluminum, not so much. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.