Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

[Aon Ati he/him]

[SPOILERS ALL STORMLIGHT]

 

Hello all. I had a thought about Stormlight 5, possible plots points in it, and the death rattle about a child and a knife to its throat. I realized that Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer all have instances of someone in a situation where sacrificing a literal or figurative child would advance the personal interests of the slayer. 

In Way of Kings Kaladin refuses to sacrifice Tien to the military without being by his side, and Tien's eventual strategic death by the army cements in Kaladin the conviction never to act in like manner.

Thus we have the moment in Words of Radiance where Kaladin realizes that Elhokar is Tien for Dalinar and refuses to let him be sacrificed for 'the greater good'.

And in Oathbringer we see Dalinar refuse to kill the child Tanalan, even though it could possibly bring future problems.

That brings me to Rhythm of War. I don't know if the pattern continues in this one. I can see Shallan not killing Kelek as an example of it, since his mental stability has degraded so much. But I can't think of anything else.

All that to say, I think that this theme of potentially sacrificing an innocent to achieve an end is an intentional theme and I think there will be a climatic moment centered around this theme in Wind and Truth.

Anyway, just wanted to add that to the bucket of ideas. Hope you all have a good day.

[Quantus he/him]

For context, here's the Death Rattle in question:

Quote

 

"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw."

-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Aon Ati said:

That brings me to Rhythm of War. I don't know if the pattern continues in this one. I can see Shallan not killing Kelek as an example of it, since his mental stability has degraded so much. But I can't think of anything else.

Mmmmm, it's an interesting pattern. I was thinking about RoW and Kalak is a bit of a stretch, but what about Lift? She was not killed by Mraize, then later by Raboniel and other Fused and most importantly Moash didn't kill Lift when fighting with Teft. She is a child, Moash had an interest in threatening to kill and killing her - forcing Teft to fight him - that might be the continuation of the pattern you're looking for. However, sparing Lift actually achieved that goal. It's still a bit of a stretch in your context but at least she is a real child. RoW ch 104:

Quote

Moash, however, casually turned and slashed his Shardblade through the face of a Radiant beneath him. The unconscious woman’s eyes burned and Lift cried out in horror, heaving herself forward to reach the body—as if she could do anything.
Moash glanced at Teft, then raised his Blade toward Lift.
“Fine!” Teft said, striding forward. “Bastard! You want me? Fine! Fight me! I’ll show you who the better man is!”
Moash landed beside the body and walked straight toward Teft. “We both know who the better warrior is, Teft.”

 

[Immortal Platypus]

I don't know exactly how common it is, but I know that it is a theory that Odium's Champion will be Gavinor (Elhokar's son). This would fit the the "climactic moment" as it would be in the contest of champions, and he is also a child.

Edited April 17 by Immortal Platypus

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

10 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said:

I don't know exactly how common it is, but I know that it is a theory that Odium's Champion will be Gavinor (Dalinar's son). This would fit the the "climactic moment" as it would be in the contest of champions, and he is also a child.

Gavinor is Elhokar's son. But yeah I've seen this theory before.

What we know is that Odium is looking to make sure that no matter the outcome of the Contest, he will win. So forcing Dalinar to do something incredibly heinous like murdering an innocent child that he loves or let Odium win seems like a probable plan. Odium might even be able to convince Gavinor to do it since he's so young by offering Moash's life in exchange, since Gavinor wants revenge for Moash murdering his father. Gavinor could be tricked. Though how Odium would reach out to him when he's in Urithiru with the Suppression Fabrials on is a mystery. Maybe through Sja-Anat? Maybe Odium gets her full cooperation in this by promising a place for her and her children to live like she so desperately wants?

But either way, I don't think Odium is going to be dumb enough to bet it all on a powerful champion against the Blackthorn, he'll pull something tricksy.

[Immortal Platypus]

9 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Gavinor is Elhokar's son.

you're right, I knew it wasn't Galivar, but couldn't think who it was. Thanks

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

14 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

you're right, I knew it wasn't Galivar, but couldn't think who it was. Thanks

To be fair Dalinar basically is Gavinor's dad at this point, or step-grandad/uncle anyway.

[UltimateArchivist He/Him]

23 hours ago, Aon Ati said:

That brings me to Rhythm of War. I don't know if the pattern continues in this one. I can see Shallan not killing Kelek as an example of it, since his mental stability has degraded so much. But I can't think of anything else.

What about Adin? The boy Kaladin put his armor on? He was willing to sacrifice himself, but at the last moment, realized he didn't want to die? Just speculations.

10 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

What we know is that Odium is looking to make sure that no matter the outcome of the Contest, he will win. So forcing Dalinar to do something incredibly heinous like murdering an innocent child that he loves or let Odium win seems like a probable plan.

Heinous. A perfect word. I'm still leaning towards the Adolin theory, but I hadn't considered this. It is almost certain it will be someone it will be hard for Dalinar to fight, not physically, but morally.

[Immortal Platypus]

3 hours ago, UltimateArchivist said:

What about Adin? The boy Kaladin put his armor on? He was willing to sacrifice himself, but at the last moment, realized he didn't want to die? Just speculations.

I like the idea of Adin.

 

4 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

To be fair Dalinar basically is Gavinor's dad at this point, or step-grandad/uncle anyway.

yeah, I forgot about Elhokar cause he's dead 

[Guest]

ROW had the Nale flashback where he's protecting a child from dark monsters as well. Even if you don't count Teft protecting Lift, this would count. 

[The Stick]

Another thing to consider is that Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, who basically ensures he will follow all oaths. I would think the champion will be be someone Dalinar can't fight without breaking an oath, which would probably kill the Stormfather.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

38 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Another thing to consider is that Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, who basically ensures he will follow all oaths. I would think the champion will be be someone Dalinar can't fight without breaking an oath, which would probably kill the Stormfather.

There's another Death Rattle that might have some relevance: 

Spoiler

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us. 

—Collected on Palahakev 1173, 16 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a Thaylen sailor.

Maybe if the Stormfather is killed, as he nearly was in Oathbringer when Dalinar forced him to become a Blade to open an Oathgate, that will severely screw up the Highstorms, maybe making them disapate all together, maybe temporarily or maybe forever. Leaving the Radiants with no Stormlight, and only the Everstorm.

Which could lead to the Radiants needing to fight fire with fire and utilize Voidlight and Voidbinding to keep fighting, turning Odium's strength against him. Which might be part of his plan to get the Radiants to slowly become Connected to Odium so he can manipulate them.

Or maybe not.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:36 PM, alder24 said:

Mmmmm, it's an interesting pattern. I was thinking about RoW and Kalak is a bit of a stretch, but what about Lift? She was not killed by Mraize, then later by Raboniel and other Fused and most importantly Moash didn't kill Lift when fighting with Teft. She is a child, Moash had an interest in threatening to kill and killing her - forcing Teft to fight him - that might be the continuation of the pattern you're looking for. However, sparing Lift actually achieved that goal. It's still a bit of a stretch in your context but at least she is a real child. RoW ch 104:

 

You know, there could be a counterpoint to this theme in RoW, with Raboniel and her daughter. She made a choice that she felt was merciful. It's an antithesis to the decisions of Kaladin and Dalinar in the first three novels. I also feel that Kaladin, Dalinar, and possibly even Navani would seriously struggle with being in Raboniel's position. Navani (who is literally one of the most intelligent people in the Cosmere) didn't even consider what Roboniel did, as a possibility beforehand. She was caught entirely off guard. I could be wrong, but it would be very Brandon-like (to me) to give this example, almost like a ketek, in theme with the first 3 books. And I'm assuming we'll get the culmination of this theme in book 5.

Edited April 18 by JohnnyKaizen

[ConfusedCow]

Good observation, though IMO. The child sacrifice in WOR is Shallan.  The child sacrifice in ROW Eshonai.  

Thinking about this made me notice another pattern I wondered if anyone had observed.  Each viewpoint radiant deals with a flashback ('childhood') trauma differently.  

Five Stages of Grief

Denial : Shallan 

Anger : Dalinar 

Bargaining : Venli 

Depression : Kaladin 

Acceptance : Szeth

IDK fits pretty well.  Not sure what it implies.  None of the above seem like a healthy response, though if there is a right way to deal with grief I don't know it.

Edited April 20 by ConfusedCow