Theory about where Honor died + The Stormlight 5 finale prediction (Stormlight 5 prologue spoilers)

[slavagh he/him]

1)      How did Honor die?

“I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled”

I know that the Shard’s death can be a protracted event. Probably Honor was injured for a long time. But this quote from Stormfather let me believe there was a final confrontation with Odium which resulted in his immediate death. According to The Sibling, it happened shortly after the Recreance.

2)      Was Odium stuck on braze from around the Recreance to the Final desolation?

I believe yes. There is a lack of evidence about his influence on Roshar up until the arrival of the Everstorm in Shadesmare. You would think there would be at least one secret society of Odium worshipers. It is logical for him to establish a base of support for himself to divide humans and prepare for the Final desolation. We know he was very successful in recruiting humans in the previous desolations. He had at least millennia after recreance to do something. But there is no evidence he did.

Why he didn’t support the whole False Desolation thing? It wasn’t such a bad idea to try one desolation without the Fused? If BAM was able to make Reagals, so did he. He even could have protected her from the whole imprisonment thing. I think it is the evidence that he was stuck on Braize.

Sja-anat said in her chapter that she lost connection with Odium and was slumbering for millennia. He could have done it intentionally. But why? Maybe he just couldn’t provide that connection.

3)      So where did Honor die?

Isn’t it logical to assume that the fight between Odium and Honor happened on the planet where Odium was stuck before and after the fight? I believe Honor died on Braize. That is where the final confrontation happened, and that is where his remnants are. Why is it relevant? It helps me to solve the Oathpact contradiction.

4)      Oathpact contradiction.

On one hand, there is a lot of evidence that the Oathpact is meaningless now. The narrative signals to the reader about that. This desolation is called Final, Raboniel says that this is the last time.

The Everstorm can revive fused without sending them to braize. Now you can kill a herald. But most importantly, now you can kill the Fused. What is the point of Oathpact now? Why introduce all those hurdles if the endgame is the revival of the Oathpact?

On the other hand, there is the foreshadowing of the revival of the Oath pact in The Rhythm of War. Jasnah talks about it with Ash, Dalinal talks about it with Stormfather after a confrontation with Nale, and most importantly Ishar says he can revive it. It was a moment of clarity, and he is the creator of the Oathpact.

In The Stormlight 5 prologue, we are introduced to the concept of replacing a Herald. It seems like a hint towards the revival of the Oathpact, but with the new Heralds.

5)      Stormlight 5 finale prediction.

I think the outcome of the battle of champions is Odium free of Honor’s restrictions. Which is pure speculation. But there are a lot of threads about this topic. This leaves good guys in a very bad position. I see only one option for them: to revive Honor. For that, they will need to go to Braize. How do you go to Braize? Odium is probably will stop you from doing that easily.

Here is where the Oathpact comes in handy. Heroes will revive the Oathpact (mostly new members) purely to have a passage on Braize to retrieve the remnants of Honor. After that, they can broker a deal with Odium from a stronger position.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, slavagh said:

3)      So where did Honor die?

Isn’t it logical to assume that the fight between Odium and Honor happened on the planet where Odium was stuck before and after the fight? I believe Honor died on Braize. That is where the final confrontation happened, and that is where his remnants are. Why is it relevant? It helps me to solve the Oathpact contradiction.

Interesting line of theorizing, I like how you gave another meaning to restoring the Oathpact as just like you've pointed out, restoring the Oathpact doesn't make sense in the current situation.

But here is a problem I have with it. Shards don't have "a body," their body is their power - investiture - which is located mainly in the SR and in the SR space and location have no meaning. Shards just are. Their power is omnipresent, but their mind is not, it's not infinite, it's limited and while it can focus on many places at once, it still can't be everywhere at once and a Shard has to divide their attention even if their power is everywhere. So when you're seeing Odium at the end of OB, or in visions he pulls people into, that's not Odium's body, that's not Odium's whole power, that's just Odium's mind (the Vessel) partially manifesting a form others can see, while he's also doing stuff in several other places at the same time. That kind of manifestation exposes Shard's mind, which we've seen Taravangian exploiting.

Honor's remnants are in the SR, the Splintered pieces of investiture, some are attached to the Stormfather and that's separate from his nature of Honor's Cognitive Shadow. He holds the power of Honor, not all of it, but a significant amount of it. Because of that Dalinar is in position to represent Honor.

So while Honor might have been Splintered on Braize, as his attention and mind was focused there trying to counteract whatever Odium was doing, his investiture isn't just there, it is still in SR and going to Braize to gather that makes no sense in that context. From the example of Sel, we know that this time Odium didn't try to pull Honor's investiture into the CR (as that would create a massive deadly storm in the CR), nor to the PR as that would be even more dangerous, so Honor's Splintered investiture stayed in the SR. That means it doesn't matter where you are, Connection and reaching into the SR is what matters. Dalinar already has that Connection through his bond with the Stormfather, he can reach into the SR too (perpendicularity), he doesn't need to go anywhere. 

OB ch 57:

Quote

“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”
[...]
Odium turned to him so sharply that Dalinar jumped. “Is that,” Odium said quietly, “an offer to release me from my bonds, coming from the man holding the remnants of Honor’s name and power?”
[...]
“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

[...]

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

Spoiler

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

[...]

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[Jcudaj]

I always thought that Honor had opened himself up for attack. He was weak and raving, he could have tried leaving the system exposing himself for Odium to attack. Cultivation would not have intervened as she would have seen him abandoning her as well.  

 

Good theory tho.  

[slavagh he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

But here is a problem I have with it. Shards don't have "a body," their body is their power - investiture - which is located mainly in the SR and in the SR space and location have no meaning. Shards just are. Their power is omnipresent, but their mind is not, it's not infinite, it's limited and while it can focus on many places at once, it still can't be everywhere at once and a Shard has to divide their attention even if their power is everywhere. So when you're seeing Odium at the end of OB, or in visions he pulls people into, that's not Odium's body, that's not Odium's whole power, that's just Odium's mind (the Vessel) partially manifesting a form others can see, while he's also doing stuff in several other places at the same time. That kind of manifestation exposes Shard's mind, which we've seen Taravangian exploiting.

Honor's remnants are in the SR, the Splintered pieces of investiture, some are attached to the Stormfather and that's separate from his nature of Honor's Cognitive Shadow. He holds the power of Honor, not all of it, but a significant amount of it. Because of that Dalinar is in position to represent Honor.

So while Honor might have been Splintered on Braize, as his attention and mind was focused there trying to counteract whatever Odium was doing, his investiture isn't just there, it is still in SR and going to Braize to gather that makes no sense in that context. From the example of Sel, we know that this time Odium didn't try to pull Honor's investiture into the CR (as that would create a massive deadly storm in the CR), nor to the PR as that would be even more dangerous, so Honor's Splintered investiture stayed in the SR. That means it doesn't matter where you are, Connection and reaching into the SR is what matters. Dalinar already has that Connection through his bond with the Stormfather, he can reach into the SR too (perpendicularity), he doesn't need to go anywhere. 

1) Totally valid arguments. To be honest, I don’t understand Spiritual Realm that much. My interpretation is that location doesn’t have meaning in the Spiritual realm, because it is replaced with the connection between objects. But this connection manifests as a location in SR and PR. Odium somehow moved throughout Cosmere to kill Shards, without investing a lot. He probably created some kind of connection with the places he visited.

And for Honor to fight Odium he might have established a connection to Braize, connecting his power to Braize, leaving a large portion with Stormfather on Roshar.

The weird storm around Braize might be his remnants.

Hero o Ages spoilers:

Spoiler

There was the specific location where Sazed picked up both shards, exactly where they were fighting.

2) My other option is:

Hero o Ages spoilers:

Spoiler

There is something similar on Braize to a large chunk that was missing from Ruin that he was looking for. Maybe Dalinar will need to collect a big chunk of his power, not a whole shard.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

1) Totally valid arguments. To be honest, I don’t understand Spiritual Realm that much. My interpretation is that location doesn’t have meaning in the Spiritual realm, because it is replaced with the connection between objects. But this connection manifests as a location in SR and PR. Odium somehow moved throughout Cosmere to kill Shards, without investing a lot. He probably created some kind of connection with the places he visited.

Kind of? Maybe? I wouldn't say connection manifests as location, but the more Shards invests in a system, the more of his investiture is bounding them to the system. I don't think they need to be connected to the system to be there - if you look at back at the first 2 WoBs (the second one through the link) you've will see that each Shard has investiture scattered everywhere in Cosmere (the aftermath of the Shattering of Adonalsium), they don't need to invest in place to visit a place, some bits of their power are already there. It's not enough to bound them to the system, but enough to realize its there and do something with it. Even Shards that are already bound to one system can use that to manifest an Avatar in another distant system. So because Odium's investiture is everywhere in Cosmere, he was able to just move around and use his full power to Splinter Shards without investing in the system (probably because he was using his power directly against another Shard's power). 

But as Brandon said in WoB, he left the matter of Shardic movement ambiguous on purpose, so the in-world philosophers have something to discuss. Maybe one day we will get the answer. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

[...]

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

And for Honor to fight Odium he might have established a connection to Braize, connecting his power to Braize, leaving a large portion with Stormfather on Roshar.

Roshar, Braize and Ashyn are one system. Honor being invested in Roshar means he's invested in the whole solar system, not just in one planet. He doesn't need anything special to go to Braize, he's already there. However from Honor's vision to Dalinar it seems that it was Odium who "came" for Honor (unless that was about Odium coming to Roshar for the very first time), and by the time when he started to record those visions, he was already mortally wounded - the battle was over. Honor's death was also a prolonged process. WoK ch 75:

Quote

“It’s about all of them,” the gure said. “I should have realized he’d come for me.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the Heralds/Fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

mraize7

So Shadesmar is only from Roshar or from the three planets??

Brandon Sanderson

You can reach all three through Shadesmar, with a much shorter trip than to other systems. But the map we provide so far is only Roshar.

Phantine

Have you come up with a name for their star? It'd be easier to refer to all three by calling it the [???]ar/[sol]ar system instead of the Rosharan/[Earth]an system like we do now.

Brandon Sanderson

By people in world, it's being referred to as the Rosharan system. This is kind of confusing to us, because we focus on the suns to orient what makes a system. But in the cosmere, they travel directly to planets, and so the biggest trading planet becomes the source of naming conventions in most places. I agree it's a little confusing for us, but I believe it's the way it would naturally arise for them.

Uth-gnar

On the topic of the Rosharan solar system, do we get to learn about the significance of the 10 gas giants? We’re they there before the shards ever made their home there? Is that the ‘origin’ of the significance, in the context of the cosmere's natural laws?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

The weird storm around Braize might be his remnants.

That's Odium's power. That was the storm Odium had split and moved to Roshar to create the Everstorm. RoW ch 86:

Quote

That storm was where Ulim had originally come from. There were also thousands of another kind of spren in the storm: stormspren. Mindless things like windspren or flamespren. Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them.
To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape— unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost.

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

Hero o Ages spoilers:

  Hide contents

There was the specific location where Sazed picked up both shards, exactly where they were fighting.

 

HoA and SH spoilers:

Spoiler

That's true, but that's because powers of Ruin and Preservation were emanating from bodies of their former Vessels - we don't really know why and what was happening there. However Vin Ascended in no specific location, she only needed to be massively infused with Preservation's power. Kelsier also Ascended in no specific location (not in the place where Leras's body dropped), but just like Vin, he needed to push Preservation's power into Ire device. So that's not a rule. The power is the key here, the second key is Connection. Dalinar theoretically has both of those things right now.

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

2) My other option is:

Hero o Ages spoilers:

  Hide contents

There is something similar on Braize to a large chunk that was missing from Ruin that he was looking for. Maybe Dalinar will need to collect a big chunk of his power, not a whole shard.

 

HoA spoilers:

Spoiler

That's more likely, but that was just a fraction of Ruin's power. You can 100% Ascend without that and still be a formidable Shard. But there already are Splintered pieces of Honor all around Roshar - spren. Every spren carries a bit of Honor's power. Those spren were created even before Honor's Splintering, he Splintered himself intentionally, so I highly doubt new Honor would need to recombine those Splinters. 

If there was a place like that on Braize, we should expect Honor's perpendicularity to manifest there, just like Ruin's perpendicularity was manifested below the Pits of Hathsin. We know nothing about any perpendicularity on Braize, we know there is an unstable Honor's perpendicularity randomly appearing during Highstorms on Roshar. 

[slavagh he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Roshar, Braize and Ashyn are one system. Honor being invested in Roshar means he's invested in the whole solar system, not just in one planet. He doesn't need anything special to go to Braize, he's already there. However from Honor's vision to Dalinar it seems that it was Odium who "came" for Honor (unless that was about Odium coming to Roshar for the very first time), and by the time when he started to record those visions, he was already mortally wounded - the battle was over. Honor's death was also a prolonged process. WoK ch 75:

"In the top room" vision is strange to me. I don't think he recorded it the last. He is sane in that vision, which contradicts statements that he was raving at the later stages of his life.  Some visions (like Recreance) might be recorded by Stormfather. Stormfather has the same voice as Honor. The only time we actually see Honor is in "the top room" vision.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

However from Honor's vision to Dalinar it seems that it was Odium who "came" for Honor (unless that was about Odium coming to Roshar for the very first time), and by the time when he started to record those visions, he was already mortally wounded - the battle was over. Honor's death was also a prolonged process. WoK ch 75:

I agree that he was already wounded at some point before the final confrontation. But there might have been a second fight with the final blow with immediate death. “I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled".  This quote is not about something prolonged.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

But there already are Splintered pieces of Honor all around Roshar - spren. Every spren carries a bit of Honor's power. Those spren were created even before Honor's Splintering, he Splintered himself intentionally, so I highly doubt new Honor would need to recombine those Splinters. 

I agree. Recombining sentient Splinters is unlikely and a kind of evil thing to do. But do you think Stormfather is just "gatekeeping" the majority of Honor's power? There needs to be someplace where there is a lot of Honor's power that is not sentient, and Odium doesn't see it as a threat (the place that he controls). Otherwise, I don't see how the whole revival thing is possible.

It is hard for me to grasp the concept of splintering something that has no location or real essence. You essentially splintering the idea. And it has ramifications everywhere in Cosmere. But all those WoBs pretty much confirm what you are saying. 

Edited April 21 by slavagh

[alder24]

13 hours ago, slavagh said:

"In the top room" vision is strange to me. I don't think he recorded it the last. He is sane in that vision, which contradicts statements that he was raving at the later stages of his life.  Some visions (like Recreance) might be recorded by Stormfather. Stormfather has the same voice as Honor. The only time we actually see Honor is in "the top room" vision.

All visions were made by Honor, all were created when he was preparing for his death, assigning the Stormfather to be his successor. Honor was already dying at this point. Some were made by using his future sight ability, with most he reached into the past. It's not the Stormfather that was talking, it was all Honor. I don't see this as any contradiction, he cuts himself when mentioning Dawnshards, he keeps repeating "unite them," but mostly because those visions were made out of his fear, by using his future sight, knowing what's coming for Roshar. This might have given him a moment of clarity. IF not we don't even know when exactly he created those visions. He might have made them shortly before he started to rave and lost his mind. Honor might have looked into the future and seen Radiants destroying Roshar with their powers or Dawnshards and that’s where his raving came from. 

SH spoilers:

Spoiler

Leras has shown us that even a Shard with almost no mind can still behave well and talk clearly

 

13 hours ago, slavagh said:

I agree that he was already wounded at some point before the final confrontation. But there might have been a second fight with the final blow with immediate death. “I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled".  This quote is not about something prolonged.

I disagree. Shards die differently. Firstly the Stormfather literally BECAME Honor's corpse - he's Honor's Cognitive Shadow. This statement can have a vastly different meaning than what you think. Secondly Shards don't really have bodies, their pure energy in SR - this statement has no sense if the SF is talking about that kind of corpse. The WoB is clear that Honor's death was a long process, we know from another one that Honor went out fighting and that Cultivation was close to witness this fight and maybe even was participating in it. There was no need for a second confrontation, the first one would be enough for Odium. He killed him and that was the only thing that mattered to him - he even said that he thought he could leave Honor's Splinters alone at that time. OB ch 57:

Quote

“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, I was actually wondering whether Tanavast constructed the confrontation with Rayse in such a way that *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

That nailed his foot to the floor?

Questioner

He's stuck on Braize - at least for now.

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, yes. That was, in effect, that was an intentional -

Questioner

It was deliberate? Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It was deliberate. Yup.

Questioner

*Inaudible, possibly 'Rayse'* started to win?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well...

Questioner

I'll keep it secret until it shows up on Facebook.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it... so, Odium came at him, and he gave - not as good as he got - but he made it cost.

Questioner

Did he sacrifice himself, or is Odium better at that sort of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say that he sacrificed himself, I'd say he went out swinging.

Questioner

Is Odium just better at that sort of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say, yes.

Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015)

 

Spoiler

FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

But do you think Stormfather is just "gatekeeping" the majority of Honor's power?

No. He has the power, but not any ability - he's not a Shard, he's not a Vessel, he can't use that power. While he was given some capacity by Honor to do stuff on his behalf, like creating a new generation of Honorspren, that's far beyond what Honor can do. The Stormfather has Connection, has some power, but that's it. But Dalinar can. He already Ascended to "Unity" at the end of OB, he did something there that both Odium and the Stormfather view differently than others. WoR I-1:

Quote

“Regardless, I need to understand him so I can help him,” Syl said. “Not because I’m going to be consumed by his desires, but because this is what I want to do. So I ask again. Will you make me capable of feeling what he does?”
I CANNOT DO THIS THING, the Stormfather said. YOUR WISHES ARE NOT EVIL, SYLPHRENA, BUT THEY ARE DANGEROUS.
“You cannot? Or you will not?”
I HAVE THE POWER, BUT NOT THE ABILITY.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

There needs to be someplace where there is a lot of Honor's power that is not sentient, and Odium doesn't see it as a threat (the place that he controls). Otherwise, I don't see how the whole revival thing is possible.

I disagree. It doesn't have to be any place. Honor is Splintered, the Shard is shattered to pieces. That's enough. As I said above, Odium thought he could leave Splinters alone, but now he saw his mistake. Reviving a dead Splinter Shard is something unprecedented, something that has not happened anywhere as for now, he doesn't have to immediately worry about it, especially that he is still on Roshar and would be able to counteract anything that would go wrong. The power simply is in the SR, the Stormfather is reaching for it when renewing Stormlight. 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

It is hard for me to grasp the concept of splintering something that has no location or real essence. You essentially splintering the idea.

I think that's an accurate representation of what is happening. But we don't know much about how this process is happening in detail. It seems it's more about killing the mind and fracturing the power, which sends ripples through all three realms. That still means if someone were to Ascend to Honor, he would have to reunite all Splintered pieces of it, which might not be as easy as having Connection to all of them. It would take some power to do so - probably.

Spoiler

Questioner

When a Shard Splinters, does it have any effect on the cosmere that we aren’t seeing yet? 

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Questioner

What would be the effect if all the Shards Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

It does have, but see, there is Splintering, and there’s Splintering. Traumatic Splintering is a different event than a Shard Splintering themselves, or things like this. There’s a whole continuum going on there.

All the Shards being Splintered would, of course, have an effect. But it could have all kinds of different effects based on how, and why, and what’s going on, and what happened to the different pieces of Investiture. You can have a full Splintering, where the Shard is just completely blasted into pieces. Or you can have a Shard taking off pieces of their soul and Splintering it out and sending it off to be self-aware, and things like that. These are two different things.

Also, there’s a whole bunch of nuance in that question. But the answer is: it will inevitably have an effect, and there are effects that have happened in the cosmere that you don’t recognize yet as being the effects of Splintering, and things like that.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, one more time.

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self.

Brandon Sanderson

"Half-ish Shards are whole?"

Little Wilson

Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. 

Little Wilson

Yes, yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, got it. Yeah.

Little Wilson

And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole.

Zas678

Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole.

Zas678

But having a Splinter, like Endowment...

Little Wilson

Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. 

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Little Wilson

And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before--

Isaac Stewart

Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the shattering [Splintering] of Honor happen in the Cognitive Realm, and Ruin in the Physical? *Brandon laughs* The reason I'm wondering is, are spren the expression of the shattering in the Cognitive Realm while Ruin's physical being is an expression of the shattering in the Physical?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an interesting theory that I don't want to completely shoot down, but it is not heading in absolutely correct directions. The shattering of a shard is an event that transcends all three Realms.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

[slavagh he/him]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

I disagree. Shards die differently. Firstly the Stormfather literally BECAME Honor's corpse - he's Honor's Cognitive Shadow. This statement can have a vastly different meaning than what you think. Secondly Shards don't really have bodies, their pure energy in SR - this statement has no sense if the SF is talking about that kind of corpse. The WoB is clear that Honor's death was a long process, we know from another one that Honor went out fighting and that Cultivation was close to witness this fight and maybe even was participating in it. There was no need for a second confrontation, the first one would be enough for Odium. He killed him and that was the only thing that mattered to him - he even said that he thought he could leave Honor's Splinters alone at that time. OB ch 57:

Hero of Ages spoiler:

Spoiler

Shards can die immediately after confrontation: Vin and Ati died that way. We don't know how many fights two shards can have. Receiving a wound in the first fight and being killed in the second counts as prolonged death to me.

What do you mean she was close to witness the fight? Being on Roshar is close enough given that distance doesn't really matter for Shards.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

No. He has the power, but not any ability - he's not a Shard, he's not a Vessel, he can't use that power. While he was given some capacity by Honor to do stuff on his behalf, like creating a new generation of Honorspren, that's far beyond what Honor can do. The Stormfather has Connection, has some power, but that's it. But Dalinar can. He already Ascended to "Unity" at the end of OB, he did something there that both Odium and the Stormfather view differently than others.

I assume the Stormfather has only a splinter of power. A large one, but still quite a limited amount. You can use a limited amount to Ascend, but not necessarily to become a shard. Other splinters are spren. Do you think that is it? There are no more large splinters of Honor left after the fight? 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think that's an accurate representation of what is happening. But we don't know much about how this process is happening in detail. It seems it's more about killing the mind and fracturing the power, which sends ripples through all three realms. That still means if someone were to Ascend to Honor, he would have to reunite all Splintered pieces of it, which might not be as easy as having Connection to all of them. It would take some power to do so - probably.

How can he reunite splintered pieces that have gained sentience? It would be killing. That is why I am leaning toward something (other than what Stormfather is holding) that can be absorbed. Something like large chunks of power in the Cognitive or Physical realm that could have been left on Braize after the fight.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

Hero of Ages spoiler:

  Hide contents

Shards can die immediately after confrontation: Vin and Ati died that way. We don't know how many fights two shards can have. Receiving a wound in the first fight and being killed in the second counts as prolonged death to me.

HoA:

Spoiler

It was their Vessels death tbf, Shard’s stayed intact and it would take some time for them to Splinter on their own, or do some dangerous stuff if not for Sazed. However it doesn't apply to Honor. Odium was wounded from his previous encounters and yet those wounds aren't deadly. If Honor was just wounded in the first encounter and Odium was required to kill him off again, that means it wasn't a deadly wound. In your example it would be a rapid death as he was deadly wounded and killed just in the same fight. 

Brandon in WoBs is quite clear on that - Honor's death was a long process, it didn't happen overnight. He was mortally wounded and was slowly dying afterwards. Brandon compared it to Preservation's death which lasted thousands of years. Odium and Honor might have clashed early on in Rosharan history and then Honor realized he's already dead.

Spoiler

Questioner

I was wondering if there was a connection between when we meet Preservation in Secret History, and the way he is, and the Stormfather. Like, is he dead yet, in Secret History?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a similarity, but-- Dying for a Shard takes a long time, in a lot of cases. So, it's similar. But the Stormfather is something different, *inaudible* remnants left over after the god died. 

Questioner

So is he dead?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor is dead, yes. But, at the same time, the Stormfather is kind of his Cognitive Shadow. So-- what does "dead" mean?

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

What do you mean she was close to witness the fight? Being on Roshar is close enough given that distance doesn't really matter for Shards.

Her mind and attention was focused on the fight. Just being on Roshar isn't enough, they need to look at it and Shards can't infinitely divide their attention, their minds aren't infinite. 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

I assume the Stormfather has only a splinter of power. A large one, but still quite a limited amount. You can use a limited amount to Ascend, but not necessarily to become a shard. Other splinters are spren. Do you think that is it? There are no more large splinters of Honor left after the fight? 

I think that too about the Stormfather, but he's also Honor's Cognitive Shadow, he should have Connections to all pieces of Honor, even if they aren't attached to him. It might be problematic to reach them for someone like Dalinar, but that should be possible in my opinion. 

Spren existed before Honor's death, they weren't created during the Splintering of Honor, they should not matter in recreation of Honor. I don't count them as pieces needed for that. I do think there are larger Splinters of Honor in SR, not aware, just raw power staying in SR, but because of Stormlight, Spren and all this cycle of investiture on Roshar, which circulate massive amount of investiture compared to other places, this raw power stays dormant, it doesn't go nuts like Dor for example, as all this cycling provides a relief.

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

How can he reunite splintered pieces that have gained sentience? It would be killing.

I don't count Splinters/Spren as necessary elements for Honor's recombination. They are sentient, they've existed long before Honor's death, they were made by Honor in the first place and they are fully autonomous. Spren are just a drop of water in the ocean of power that a Shard holds. 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

That is why I am leaning toward something (other than what Stormfather is holding) that can be absorbed. Something like large chunks of power in the Cognitive or Physical realm that could have been left on Braize after the fight.

I do agree that there is something else, but I think it's just a raw power left Splintered in the SR, as there is no evidence for any Splintered raw power of Honor existing in CR or PR.

[slavagh he/him]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Spren existed before Honor's death, they weren't created during the Splintering of Honor, they should not matter in recreation of Honor. I don't count them as pieces needed for that. I do think there are larger Splinters of Honor in SR, not aware, just raw power staying in SR, but because of Stormlight, Spren and all this cycle of investiture on Roshar, which circulate massive amount of investiture compared to other places, this raw power stays dormant, it doesn't go nuts like Dor for example, as all this cycling provides a relief.

Yeah, this makes sense. I like this idea.