Burning BioChromatic Breath

[MindMeltingMistwraith he/him]

What would happen if you stored your Breaths in a piece of metal, then burned that metal Allomantically?

Would the Breaths dissipate, becoming unusable? Would you get them back? Or... would we see something similar to compounding?

My friend asked this question, and it's been a while since my last reading of Warbreaker. I couldn't find this question anywhere, so I'm asking it!

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

What would happen if you stored your Breaths in a piece of metal, then burned that metal Allomantically?

Would the Breaths dissipate, becoming unusable? Would you get them back? Or... would we see something similar to compounding?

My friend asked this question, and it's been a while since my last reading of Warbreaker. I couldn't find this question anywhere, so I'm asking it!

There are two WoBs on that. If Breaths are yours, you would get them back and get the normal Allomantic power from the metal you're burning. If they aren't yours, we don't know, probably they would dissipate with no effect. 

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity.

Footnote: followed-up by this
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal.

Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

[Quantus he/him]

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are two WoBs on that. If Breaths are yours, you would get them back and get the normal Allomantic power from the metal you're burning. If they aren't yours, we don't know, probably they would dissipate with no effect. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity.

Footnote: followed-up by this
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

  Hide contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal.

Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

If you burn somebody else's Metalmind you get sick as if where an improper alloy, correct?  I suspect burning metal that has been Invested (in any way) with somebody else's Identity is going to have a similar effect. 

I'm a little surprised by that 2nd WOB that says it would be returned with no effect, I would have thought you'd get some form of the same ReTuning of the Investiture that you get when you burn feruchemically Charged metals.  Perhaps that would require a more specific Command when the Breaths were Invested in the metal?

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If you burn somebody else's Metalmind you get sick as if where an improper alloy, correct?

This does not match what we see in TFE (Ch 29):

Spoiler

“Sazed, can I have a bit of your metal?” she finally asked.

“My metal, Mistress?”

“Something you’ve used as a Feruchemical store,” Vin said. “I want to try burning it—maybe that will let me use some of its power.”

Sazed frowned curiously.

“Has anyone ever tried it before?”

“I’m sure someone must have,” Sazed said. “But, I honestly can’t think of a specific example. Perhaps if I were to go search my memory copperminds… ”

“Why not just let me try it now?” Vin asked. “Do you have something made from one of the basic metals? Something you haven’t stored anything too valuable in?”

Sazed paused, then reached up to one of his oversized earlobes and undid an earring much like the one Vin wore. He handed the earring’s tiny backing, used to hold the earring in place, to Vin. “It is pure pewter, Mistress. I have stored a moderate amount of strength in it.”

Vin nodded, swallowing the tiny stud. She felt at her Allomantic reserve, but the stud’s metal didn’t seem to do anything different. She tentatively burned pewter.

“Anything?” Sazed asked.

Vin shook her head. “No, I don’t… ” She trailed off. There was something there, something different.

“What is it, Mistress?” Sazed asked, uncharacteristic eagerness sounding in his voice.

“I… can feel the power, Saze. It’s faint—far beyond my grasp—but I swear that there’s another reserve within me, one that only appears when I’m burning your metal.”

Sazed frowned. “It’s faint, you say? Like… you can see a shadow of the reserve, but can’t access the power itself?”

Vin nodded. “How do you know?”

“That’s what it feels like when you try to use another Feruchemist’s metals, Mistress,” Sazed said, sighing. “I should have suspected this would be the result. You cannot access the power because it does not belong to you.”

“Oh,” Vin said.

So, she did not get sick and when burning her normal Pewter, she could feel the F-Pewter storage, but could not access it. It is unclear if she was actually burning the Metalmind (she says "your metal" but she also says that she can't touch his metal) or just burning regular Pewter that let he feel the Pewtermind.

[Quantus he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This does not match what we see in TFE (Ch 29):

  Hide contents

“Sazed, can I have a bit of your metal?” she finally asked.

“My metal, Mistress?”

“Something you’ve used as a Feruchemical store,” Vin said. “I want to try burning it—maybe that will let me use some of its power.”

Sazed frowned curiously.

“Has anyone ever tried it before?”

“I’m sure someone must have,” Sazed said. “But, I honestly can’t think of a specific example. Perhaps if I were to go search my memory copperminds… ”

“Why not just let me try it now?” Vin asked. “Do you have something made from one of the basic metals? Something you haven’t stored anything too valuable in?”

Sazed paused, then reached up to one of his oversized earlobes and undid an earring much like the one Vin wore. He handed the earring’s tiny backing, used to hold the earring in place, to Vin. “It is pure pewter, Mistress. I have stored a moderate amount of strength in it.”

Vin nodded, swallowing the tiny stud. She felt at her Allomantic reserve, but the stud’s metal didn’t seem to do anything different. She tentatively burned pewter.

“Anything?” Sazed asked.

Vin shook her head. “No, I don’t… ” She trailed off. There was something there, something different.

“What is it, Mistress?” Sazed asked, uncharacteristic eagerness sounding in his voice.

“I… can feel the power, Saze. It’s faint—far beyond my grasp—but I swear that there’s another reserve within me, one that only appears when I’m burning your metal.”

Sazed frowned. “It’s faint, you say? Like… you can see a shadow of the reserve, but can’t access the power itself?”

Vin nodded. “How do you know?”

“That’s what it feels like when you try to use another Feruchemist’s metals, Mistress,” Sazed said, sighing. “I should have suspected this would be the result. You cannot access the power because it does not belong to you.”

“Oh,” Vin said.

So, she did not get sick and when burning her normal Pewter, she could feel the F-Pewter storage, but could not access it. It is unclear if she was actually burning the Metalmind (she says "your metal" but she also says that she can't touch his metal) or just burning regular Pewter that let he feel the Pewtermind.

Ah, cool, thanks, I couldnt recall how that scene had played out.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ah, cool, thanks, I couldnt recall how that scene had played out.

No worries

22 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I'm a little surprised by that 2nd WOB that says it would be returned with no effect, I would have thought you'd get some form of the same ReTuning of the Investiture that you get when you burn feruchemically Charged metals.  Perhaps that would require a more specific Command when the Breaths were Invested in the metal?

Seems to make sense to me. Feruchemy, as a Manifestation of Investiture is already Connected to metal. BioChromatic breath is not-only not Connected to metal (and is very difficult to work that way) but is Connected to Organic Material (that which is alive or had been alive). So, burning the object that holds the breath would be effectivly the same as "Your Breath to Mine" reclaiming the Breaths (since they can't use metallic structure to access Endowment's Investiture the way Compounding does Preservation's Investiture. 

[Quantus he/him]

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

No worries

Seems to make sense to me. Feruchemy, as a Manifestation of Investiture is already Connected to metal. BioChromatic breath is not-only not Connected to metal (and is very difficult to work that way) but is Connected to Organic Material (that which is alive or had been alive). So, burning the object that holds the breath would be effectivly the same as "Your Breath to Mine" reclaiming the Breaths (since they can't use metallic structure to access Endowment's Investiture the way Compounding does Preservation's Investiture. 

I guess I can see that, the idea that it's a more fundamental issue of the specific magic rather (kinda like the Self effect limitations of Breaths because Endowment.  Or maybe it's the result of the basic Storage Command that's being used; if the Breath has no active effect Tuning it wouldnt have anything to Compound.  Maybe, for example, if the Breaths were storing Memory when Burned, you'd get the same effect as if you'd Burned a filled Coppermind (whatever that might end up doing), instead of just returning the otherwise inactive investiture.  

 

 

[MindMeltingMistwraith he/him]

Okay, follow-up question. If you put your Breath in a piece of metal and tried to use it as a metalmind... would that work? That seems like it would maybe work: the Investiture is already keyed to you... Thoughts?

[alder24]

19 hours ago, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

Okay, follow-up question. If you put your Breath in a piece of metal and tried to use it as a metalmind... would that work? That seems like it would maybe work: the Investiture is already keyed to you... Thoughts?

Work how? What kind of effect do you expect? Would that allow you to use those Breaths Feruchemically to gain a new effect, or use those Breaths to power your Feruchemy externally, like compounding does? Highly doubtful. Could you use Awakened metals as normal metalminds and for example, just store your speed in an Awakened steelmind? Possible, but that might be hard - investiture resist investiture. Something that's already is invested would be harder to get invested more. The same would apply in the opposite direction - a metalmind that is already invested with some attribute would be hard to Awaken because it's invested. So I expect it to work like a normal metalmind would work, giving you the same power as the metal normally gives you, but it might be hard to store in it, or it might store less attributes because it's invested, it's Awakened, but I highly doubt you would get anything new in Feruchemy from that - no new power.

TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

But in the future there are Awakened steelminds that function as AI, so it's definitely possible to combine these two arts together, but it seems it's not going to give you new powers.

 

22 hours ago, Quantus said:

I'm a little surprised by that 2nd WOB that says it would be returned with no effect, I would have thought you'd get some form of the same ReTuning of the Investiture that you get when you burn feruchemically Charged metals.  Perhaps that would require a more specific Command when the Breaths were Invested in the metal?

It's weird, but on the other hand it's expected. Metallic Arts are hard to off-source.

Spoiler

Questioner

So you said that different Investitures from different worlds can fuel different Investitures, right? Would that mean that you could potentially use Stormlight for Allomancy and/or Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a little harder with the Metallic Arts than, for instance, Nightblood is the easiest example. He can just feed on whatever Investiture is around.

[...]

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

[MindMeltingMistwraith he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

or use those Breaths to power your Feruchemy externally, like compounding does?

This was my original thought. If Feruchemy works by storing Investiture in pieces of metal, with the effect stored affected by the structure of the metal, then it seems like having another type of Investiture (especially if it was already keyed to you) could still work because the metal would tell the Breath how to behave. Isn't this essentially how compounding works? The metal you burn is charged Feruchemically, so when you burn the metal, the flood of Investiture from the SR takes on the Feruchemical properties.

I guess it might take a little bit of charge in the metalmind to provide a mold for the Breath (think tinminds storing separate senses), but that should still be possible (if maybe a little harder).

Does everything I've said sound right? Do I have a fundamental flaw in my understanding of Feruchemy?

Thanks for being patient with me!

[Quantus he/him]

2 minutes ago, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

This was my original thought. If Feruchemy works by storing Investiture in pieces of metal, with the effect stored affected by the structure of the metal, then it seems like having another type of Investiture (especially if it was already keyed to you) could still work because the metal would tell the Breath how to behave. Isn't this essentially how compounding works? The metal you burn is charged Feruchemically, so when you burn the metal, the flood of Investiture from the SR takes on the Feruchemical properties.

I guess it might take a little bit of charge in the metalmind to provide a mold for the Breath (think tinminds storing separate senses), but that should still be possible (if maybe a little harder).

Does everything I've said sound right? Do I have a fundamental flaw in my understanding of Feruchemy?

Thanks for being patient with me!

 I'm with you on that, though it would be an expensive way to go about it.  Because Breaths are so malleable and ready to adopt the Identity of the target, I fully believe there exists a Command that you could use to add one breath units worth of Investiture to an existing metal mind.  Somebody like Hoid might be able to swing Moving Memories directly from Breath storage to coppermind storage but it would be a more delicate thing since you need to preserve the specific encoding pattern.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

This was my original thought. If Feruchemy works by storing Investiture in pieces of metal, with the effect stored affected by the structure of the metal, then it seems like having another type of Investiture (especially if it was already keyed to you) could still work because the metal would tell the Breath how to behave. Isn't this essentially how compounding works? The metal you burn is charged Feruchemically, so when you burn the metal, the flood of Investiture from the SR takes on the Feruchemical properties.

Theoretically yes, but it's different. You don't store investiture by Awakening, you're making the object a little alive. And I think that's where the problem lies - burning metals that are alive, like Shardblades, is impossible because they are alive. Awakened metals might not always be like Nightblood, or Shardblades, but there is one step beyond metalminds in being alive. They would work differently and Breaths in those metals act like the soul - it's not like investiture that metalminds are filled with.

If you were to store Breaths via nicrosilmind, not Awaken, just store them, then you might be able to compound them with Allomancy and Preservation's power. This might do something new, we don't know, but that's a possible way to compound Breaths - if you can even store Breaths in a nicrosilmind. Those Breaths won't be alive, won't be activated, or Commanded, they would act as raw investiture. But that would still draw from Preservation and we don't know what Nicrosil compounding does at all. Would that compounding increase the strength of those Breaths, or would it multiply those Breaths? Maybe it would do something else entirely? We don't know if storing normal Breaths in a nicrosilmind is even possible. 

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if a person from Scadrial were to try to burn a manifested metal from Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

So you're meaning they're in Shadesmar, they manifest it, and they try to burn it, right?

Questioner

Say a Spren of a Radiant manifests as a bead of metal instead of a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

You're not going to be able to burn that if it's something that's coming from a spren, because that's not going to be treated as a metal in your body. Like, those are God Metals, and that one is actually alive and awake and it's just not gonna work. There are ways, though, that you could make that work. So it's totally possible, but you're gonna need something that's not an alive spren that's manifest like that. You're gonna need some way to get access to some tanavastium or something like that that's not, like, some living being.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

25 minutes ago, MindMeltingMistwraith said:

Does everything I've said sound right? Do I have a fundamental flaw in my understanding of Feruchemy?

No flaws here, that should work like you said, but per WoBs it doesn't. So it's either that you need to do more to power Feruchemy with powers of other Shards that aren't native on Scadrial (Feruchemy is still Preservation's magic system), or it's something with how Breaths work specifically that prevents them from being compounded like that.