LiquidBlue Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 Apologies if this is already noted. I just had the shower thought, "Why aren't Gemstones on Scadrial noted to glow if the are exposed to the mists?" Realmatically it seems that they should. Pragmatically, that simply wasn't an interaction Brandon anticipated when he was writing mistborn. However, making everything congruent doesn't take make effort or require much of any reasons. There is a a simple answer, and perhaps one that is already known. The mists are NOT gaseous investiture. The mists are liquid investiture. (A colloidal mixture of the liquid investiture and the atmosphere.) Precisely in the same way that clouds are not gaseous water, but a suspension fine droplets of liquid water in the air. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 Mists and Rosharan Lights (and Nalthian Breaths) are all Investiture but are still very distinct forms of it. In the same way Heat and Electricity and Radio are all forms of Energy but behave in wildly distinct ways. Another example is how (it appears) Breaths cant be forcibly manipulated via Sound, even though so many on that world have Perfect Pitch and should have had very strong odds of discovering such a phenomena. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 36 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said: Apologies if this is already noted. I just had the shower thought, "Why aren't Gemstones on Scadrial noted to glow if the are exposed to the mists?" Realmatically it seems that they should. Pragmatically, that simply wasn't an interaction Brandon anticipated when he was writing mistborn. However, making everything congruent doesn't take make effort or require much of any reasons. It's theoretically possible to trap Mists in a gemstone and the word theoretically is the key here - it requires some shenanigans to make it work. Stormlight is extra sticky, it's easy to take and use it to fuel Surgebinding, to inhale it and stuff like this. Mists on the other hand don't do that. They only do that on very special occasions, either directly guided by Shards (Harmony using them to fuel Wax, Preservation setting up the Mists to Snap people) or requiring a very special and Strong Connection - Vin. Normally they are dormant, they don't act like Stormlight at all. Maybe if you were to unkey them, they would be trapped by gemstones. Spoiler BubblesS0AR Could you have trapped the mists from Scadrial in a gemstone. Brandon Sanderson Theoretically possible. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 43 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said: There is a a simple answer, and perhaps one that is already known. The mists are NOT gaseous investiture. The mists are liquid investiture. (A colloidal mixture of the liquid investiture and the atmosphere.) Precisely in the same way that clouds are not gaseous water, but a suspension fine droplets of liquid water in the air. Mists are gaseous investiture. Different investitures have different properties derived from the nature of their Shards. Some are easy to obtain, some are hard. Breaths are also a gaseous form of investiture yet they basically don't exist outside of a vessel. HoA ch 72: Quote Please, she thought, reaching out to the mists with one final plea. They felt so familiar all of a sudden. Where had she felt that feeling before? Where did she know them? From the Well of Ascension, of course, a voice whispered in her head. It's the same power, after all. Solid in the metal you fed to Elend. Liquid in the pool you burned. And vapor in the air, confined to night. Hiding you. Protecting you. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Team Teama Vin “sucked in the mists” with a deep breath, also the mist was “leaking” from her arms. Is that similar to Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yes it is. One hundred percent. In fact, you should notice that when Shardblades form they take a certain shape... substance. Adam Horne Oh jeez, yeah... Brandon Sanderson Did you never notice that? Adam Horne No, I did, but you know… you don't think about it. Brandon Sanderson Before they solidify, yeah. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Spoiler Questioner I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be? Brandon Sanderson Breath is definitely like mist, it is in the form of the air. Questioner And is Stormlight the same? Brandon Sanderson Stormlight is the same. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 (edited) 3 hours ago, LiquidBlue said: The mists are NOT gaseous investiture. Actually, it's Stormlight that is not Gaseous Investiture (or, more specifically, not Investiture that has been converted to a Gaseous matter state). It may have the appearance of a Gas, but like Breath, it is not affeted by Wind, Air Movement, etc. The Nature of the Rosharan Essences is that Stormlight - as Investiture - acts as Energy when trapped (in a body, in a gem, etc.) and acts as gaseous matter when in the air (Breathing in, Condensing into a Shard Blade/Plate, etc.) but it is not a Gas, nor is it Energy. Trapped Light responds to sound (unlike sunlight, electricity, etc.) and flowing Light does not respond to air or vacuum. Breath is similar in that it is Investiture in a mostly energy-like state, that appears like gaseous matter when not bound in a physical vessel, but does not act like gaseous matter when free-flowing (famously demonstrated by ignoring Vivenna's arm waves when she was trying to not receive Lemex's breath). However, Mists are partially in the Physical as a gaseous matter Investiture - and are shown to both respond to physical movement, air movement, Manifestations of Invesititure as well as moving on their own when the air is stagnant. They also cannot be confined in a Physical Vessel (repeatedly said "will not enter buildings") unless directed to do so by some Connection or Command (Fuzz pushing Mists into the room where Vin fought Zane, even though they were repelled by his Hemalurgic Spike - Annotation below) It's one of the aspects we still don't have fully explained, but is shown repeatedly over many books that Investiture in the Physical Realm may become Energy or Matter (Solid, Liquid or Gas) - but it may also not convert and only appear similar to Energy or Matter (but behaving differently, despite appearances). Example: When a Shardblade is forming, the Stormlight Mist condences, and is unaffected by weather or wind conditions - but when it Converts to Metal, the energy consumed in the conversion lowers the temperature and causes Condensate to form on the blade (much like DewPoint in aviation) Spoiler WoA Annotation to Ch 43: Quote Vin And Zane Fight The mists enter the room here, which is–again–intentional. A lot of these things have to do with the deeper worldbuidling we won’t get into until book three. However, suffice it to say that they were forced to enter by something. Edited May 13 by Treamayne SPAG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 (edited) 13 hours ago, Treamayne said: Actually, it's Stormlight that is not Gaseous Investiture (or, more specifically, not Investiture that has been converted to a Gaseous matter state). It may have the appearance of a Gas, but like Breath, it is not affeted by Wind, Air Movement, etc. That is not true, Stormlight is Gaseous Investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6353 ), as are Breaths. It is affected by environment, if not to the same extent as regular matter (because it is not). Mists also don't behave as you would expect. Quote The Nature of the Rosharan Essences is that Stormlight - as Investiture - acts as Energy when trapped (in a body, in a gem, etc.) and acts as gaseous matter when in the air (Breathing in, Condensing into a Shard Blade/Plate, etc.) but it is not a Gas, nor is it Energy. It acting in body also does not have to do with its phase state, but with its nature. Mists act similarly when Vin draws them in, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14782, because they are the same gaseous state of Investiture. Quote Trapped Light responds to sound (unlike sunlight, electricity, etc.) and flowing Light does not respond to air or vacuum. Trapped Light responds to proper sounds, i.e. sounds created with Intent, not to any sounds. And neither sunlight nor electricity is a gas...well, electron gas is a thing, and it actually can interact with phonon (quasi-particles of sound) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19938-9 . Photons can also interact with phonons (and technically, also can sunlight and sound). 13 hours ago, Treamayne said: It's one of the aspects we still don't have fully explained, but is shown repeatedly over many books that Investiture in the Physical Realm may become Energy or Matter (Solid, Liquid or Gas) - but it may also not convert and only appear similar to Energy or Matter (but behaving differently, despite appearances). Investiture is the third (and fictional) part of Matter and Energy, so Investiture is not matter or energy but its own thing, including when manifesting physically. Godmetals are not regular physical matter that is Invested, they are Investiture in solid state (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314/#e8929). And in the same way Mists/Lights are Investiture in gaseous state. Edited May 14 by therunner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 1 hour ago, therunner said: Investiture is the third (and fictional) part of Matter and Energy, so Investiture is not matter or energy but its own thing, including when manifesting physically. Godmetals are not regular physical matter that is Invested, they are Investiture in solid state (see below). And in the same way Mists/Lights are Investiture in gaseous state. Spoiler Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) Emphasis mine I feel like we are talking passed each other, but saying similar things. Spoiler Quote Kurkistan If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from? Brandon Sanderson The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015) Quote Questioner Is Scadrial losing mass when people burn metals? Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically it is, but Investiture is another dimension to matter. Questioner So it doesn't lose mass, it becomes Investiture? Brandon Sanderson It becomes Investiture... Basically, when you go into the cosmere, we've got matter, we've got energy here. You've got matter, energy, and Investiture there, and you can get things out of Investiture back into matter, and stuff like that. There's always energy, there's entropy, there's always diffusement... it's basically, add to the laws of thermodynamics a third item, and that's how we word it. Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017) To clarify what I am saying - Stormlight is investiture that sometimes appears as a gas and sometimes acts silimiar to a gas - but it is not a gas because it has not been converted to Matter. Mists act more like a gas because they have been partially converted to gaseous matter. Spoiler Mistborn Ch 14: Quote It started raining just after they located the coin pouch. It wasn’t a hard rain, but it seemed to clear the mist slightly. Vin shivered, pulling up her hood, crouching beside Kelsier on a rooftop. A partial matter state, acting partially like matter WoA Ch 53: Quote The pool glowed beside her, just inches from where Elend had fallen. Some of his blood had dribbled into the pool, though it didn’t mix with the liquid metal. <snip> She felt the liquid pressing against her, creeping into her body, crawling, forcing its way through the pores and openings in her skin. She opened her mouth to scream, and it rushed in that way too, choking her, gagging her. With a sudden flare, her earlobe began to hurt. She cried out, pulling her earring free, dropping it into the depths. She pulled off her sash, letting it—and her Allomantic vials—go as well, removing the only metals on her person. Then she started to burn. She recognized the sensation: it was exactly like the feeling of burning metals in her stomach, except it came from her entire body. A non-matter state - appearing as liquid, but not behaving like liquid (no diffusion - no "wetness" - just burning power) All I am saying is that there is a difference between PR Investiture that appears gaseous or liquid, and PR Investiture that is in a Gaseous Matter State. Yes, WoBs refer to the former as Gaseous Investiture, which is why in the portion of my post you quoted I specifically called out this difference: 14 hours ago, Treamayne said: Actually, it's Stormlight that is not Gaseous Investiture (or, more specifically, not Investiture that has been converted to a Gaseous matter state). Really what we need are terms to differentiate between Investiture in a non-matter state, and investiture that is partially or wholly converted to a state of matter. 1 hour ago, therunner said: It acting in body also does not have to do with its phase state, but with its nature. Mists act similarly when Vin draws them in, (See Below), because they are the same gaseous state of Investiture. Spoiler Team Teama Vin “sucked in the mists” with a deep breath, also the mist was “leaking” from her arms. Is that similar to Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yes it is. One hundred percent. In fact, you should notice that when Shardblades form they take a certain shape... substance. Adam Horne Oh jeez, yeah... Brandon Sanderson Did you never notice that? Adam Horne No, I did, but you know… you don't think about it. Brandon Sanderson Before they solidify, yeah. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Emphasis mine Similar, but not the same. You are refering to the "outgassing" investiture that leaves the container (body in this instance); whereas I was referring to how the Investiture acts inside the body - more specifically Stormlight held by a person (or gem) Glows - but Vin holding the Mist does not Glow because the mist has not become a partial energy-like state (it remains the partial gaseous matter state that is then converting Vin into investiture as she Ascends (see the burning pool example above, since the process is at least similar if not the same). Stormlight, contained, seems more like a Plasma - giving off light and faint heat (and can be seen moving like a storm inside) and only seems like a gas when not contained. That was the quality that Mists did not present which is why I was trying to identify the differences. I think we mostly agree, but the wording is at cross-purposes (or, maybe I am wrong and you do not see a difference between Investiture that appears Gaseous and Investiture that actually has become (at least partially) a gas (in the matter sense)). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I think we mostly agree, but the wording is at cross-purposes (or, maybe I am wrong and you do not see a difference between Investiture that appears Gaseous and Investiture that actually has become (at least partially) a gas (in the matter sense)). That is it. I don't think we have ever seen Investiture become physical matter of gas. Well, Soulcasting would be example, but that is something else. But Mists are not that, Mists are the same as Stormlight, i.e. gaseous Investiture. They are both gas in the same sense as air is gas, just with different properties because they are not ordinary matter. 28 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Similar, but not the same. You are refering to the "outgassing" investiture that leaves the container (body in this instance); whereas I was referring to how the Investiture acts inside the body - more specifically Stormlight held by a person (or gem) Glows - but Vin holding the Mist does not Glow because the mist has not become a partial energy-like state (it remains the partial gaseous matter state that is then converting Vin into investiture as she Ascends (see the burning pool example above, since the process is at least similar if not the same). Stormlight, contained, seems more like a Plasma - giving off light and faint heat (and can be seen moving like a storm inside) and only seems like a gas when not contained. That was the quality that Mists did not present which is why I was trying to identify the differences. No, Mists within Vin act exactly like Stormlight. They power her Invested art (she has run out of metals by the point she starts draws them in HoA), they heal her (she is literally dying when she breathes them in, and then is healed and kills Inquisitors), and they leak out of her. Her body does not convert it to Investiture, it is Investiture already. Edit: Misunderstood here, you don't say she converts Mists to Investiture, but that Mists convert Vin to Investiture. Though I will say I don't think that happens till the end of the fight where she does fully Ascend. The lack of glow can be down to any number of things, for example the simple fact that Mists don't glow at all, whereas Stormlight always glows, even when not contained. Edit: Vin even describes nearly the same sensation as Radiants do, i.e. feeling urge to move, as if light flooded her body etc. Also, Stormlight does not give off heat at all, it is not like plasma. Edited May 14 by therunner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 11 minutes ago, therunner said: Also, Stormlight does not give off heat at all, it is not like plasma. Sorry, I misrememebered Navani's RoW quote (ch 76): Spoiler Navani closed her eyes, tightening her arm sheath. It had been built as a fabrial, but she wasn’t interested in that function. All she wanted was something that would hold large gemstones and press them against her skin. She could feel them now, cool but warming to her touch. I should have looked it up before posting because I thought Navani felt warmth in the touch, not the gem's sphere growing warm from body heat. 12 minutes ago, therunner said: Mists are the same as Stormlight, Then that is the part we disagree upon - I think they are similar but not the same. There are qualities exibited by each that are not present in the other. There has to be some fundamental differences. I posit that the primary difference is that it is in the nature of the Mists to be partially Gaseous Matter, while Stormlight is Investiture without matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: Sorry, I misrememebered Navani's RoW quote (ch 76): Reveal hidden contents Navani closed her eyes, tightening her arm sheath. It had been built as a fabrial, but she wasn’t interested in that function. All she wanted was something that would hold large gemstones and press them against her skin. She could feel them now, cool but warming to her touch. I should have looked it up before posting because I thought Navani felt warmth in the touch, not the gem's sphere growing warm from body heat. No problem, we all make mistakes (as can be evidenced by my misreading of parts of your post). 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: Then that is the part we disagree upon - I think they are similar but not the same. There are qualities exibited by each that are not present in the other. There has to be some fundamental differences. I posit that the primary difference is that it is in the nature of the Mists to be partially Gaseous Matter, while Stormlight is Investiture without matter. I simply don't think there are any differences that matter. Of the top of my head the only differences between Stormlight and Mists are Mists linger, Stormlight evaporates Mists don't glow, Stormlight does Mists cannot be easily captured in gems, Stormlight naturally is Two of those can be explained via nature of the Shard Mists linger because they are of Preservation, and hence persevere Stormlight naturally 'bonds' to gems because Honor is shard of Connection and bonds Other than that, both can be used to power Invested art, both provide the same feeling to user, both can be drawn in if you have appropriate Connection (e.g. Nahel bond), both can be somewhat controlled by respective Shards. Additionally, we know Tineye can see through Mists, as if they were not there at all. If they were partly regular matter that makes little sense. But if they are pure Preservation Investiture, than it makes a bit more sense. And per this WoB that is something they could do with other Gaseous manifestations of Investiture (possibly with some shenanigans) Quote AdolfoXChecos Can a Tineye see through the gaseous Investiture of other Shards? If so can they see through a Lightweaver's illusions? Brandon Sanderson This is possible but it's not going to be a native power. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Breaths are far more different than either Stormlight or Mists, yet it is Gaseous Investiture as well. As such, I don't see much evidence to suggest Mists are anything more than another gaseous manifestation. Storytelling wise, there is also little need to have them be anything else than that. But I am open to discussion. Edited May 14 by therunner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofurion Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 On 5/14/2024 at 9:45 AM, therunner said: Mists cannot be easily captured in gems, Stormlight naturally is Regarding this particular point, I believe that the reason may be a hypothetical mechanism present in the Highstorm that is constantly producing the Honor tone. This would also explain why the Voidlight does not enter the polestones during the passage of the Everstorm, even though the same type of light seems to come out of the gem at the same rate as the Stormlight. If this is the case, you will simply have to play a tuning fork with the Preservation tone to make the fog enter the polestone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 24 Report Share Posted May 24 On 5/21/2024 at 7:23 PM, Dofurion said: Regarding this particular point, I believe that the reason may be a hypothetical mechanism present in the Highstorm that is constantly producing the Honor tone. This would also explain why the Voidlight does not enter the polestones during the passage of the Everstorm, even though the same type of light seems to come out of the gem at the same rate as the Stormlight. If this is the case, you will simply have to play a tuning fork with the Preservation tone to make the fog enter the polestone. Interesting theory. Just keep in mind that the Everstorm does not give Voidlight because Odium made it that way. WoB: Spoiler Argent I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all. Brandon Sanderson All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them. They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are. The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense? Argent I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture. Brandon Sanderson Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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