how did szeth come back?

[justsomekidinasuit he/him]

so both returned individuals on Nalthis, and Szeth require investiture to prolong their existence. despite there being some visual diferences in how both returned and Szeth are described, would it be wrong to say that Szeth is a kind of returned?

furthermore, if a dead person recieves enough investiture, could they come back to life?

[Treamayne]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:34 PM, Quantus said:

Szeth is a Cognitive Shadow, per the text (Vasher, specifically, in RoW) and per WOB, it's just that "Cognitive shadow" is a whole spectrum of states and not all of them have the same problems or requirements. 

That is actually not what Vasher says, or what the WoBs imply. I'm not saying it is not possible (because too much RAFO for book 5), but it is also not a clear "yes."

RoW Ch 15 and WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

“I’m not surprised.” Zahel thought for a moment. “Imagine it this way. You know how you can make an imprint in crem, then let it dry, and fill the imprint with wax to create a copy of your original object? Well, that happened to my soul. When I died, I was drenched in power. So when my soul escaped, it left a duplicate. A kind of … fossil of a soul.”

Kaladin hesitated. “You … died?”

Zahel nodded. “Happened to your friend too. Up in the prison? The one with … that sword.”

“Szeth. Not my friend.”

“The Heralds too,” Zahel said. “When they died, they left an imprint behind. Power that remembered being them. You see, the power wants to be alive.”

He only mentions that Szeth died - but he calls out the Heralds specifically as Cognitive Shadows like himself. 

Quote

<Edited for length and relevance>

 

Brandon Sanderson

The idea is that the reader didn't see him die, so there's a psychological trigger--one that says "Ah, I didn't see a body. He's probably not dead."

Yes, Szeth totally died from that fall--just as the young man that Lift revived had died from what he suffered. We know that Stormlight can fix the body and bring back the dead, so long as very little time has passed.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 8, 2015)

Quote

Ray745

Is Lift the only one who is able to see the afterimage around Szeth when he moves? And would she have seen that afterimage around him before he was brought back to life by Nalan?

Brandon Sanderson

Lift is seeing that Szeth's soul isn't quite attached to his body any longer. She is not the only one that can see it, but her special physiology is certainly helping her see it.

General Reddit 2016 (Dec. 5, 2016)

 

 

On 5/23/2024 at 11:46 AM, justsomekidinasuit said:

if a dead person recieves enough investiture, could they come back to life?

Not investiture on it's own, because without Command and Intent, the investiture won't do anything (or know what to do). You need some Manifestation of Investiture to direct the process (such as Regrowth).

Instead of posting too many book quotes, I'll just spoiler a list of references (spoilers for Misborn, Secret History, Elantris, Warbreaker, SA3):

Spoiler

• Probably the biggest was Secret History, where Kell was melded into the Well, but did not return to life - he just stopped being pulled toward the Beyond
• Raoden trying to heal Roial is another example of how Investiture can't just act on its own.  In that instance, it was the lack of healing modifers that failed to provide the Command and Intent needed to be successful
• Returned are another example, in that they receive a Divine Breath (Splinter) stong enogh to be equal to Fifth Heightening, but it doesn't so much "bring them back to life" as simply staple their cognitive shadow to their body (with intended side effects, such as the memory wipe)
• Become immersed in too much investiture and your physical shell (without a way to protect yourself) will be destroyed - such as Vin Ascending (when her body "poofs" away before killing Marsh); and the likely result for Saolin when he is put into the Perpendicularity in Elantris and his body dissolves away
  • While it is technically possible he traversed the perpendicularity like Riino, and his fate is unconfirmed, we know that using a perpendicularity requires Intent, and he would not have known what they were, much less how to traverse one. 

Quote

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

 

Edited May 28 by Treamayne
SPAG

[CtrlAltDepressed]

52 minutes ago, justsomekidinasuit said:

Szeth require investiture to prolong their existence. despite there being some visual diferences in how both returned and Szeth are described, would it be wrong to say that Szeth is a kind of returned?

I dont think Szeth requires investiture to keep going. As nale says, he wasnt fully dead yet so he isnt technically a cognitive shadow. 

 

The shadow that Lift sees is more related to the corruption of his soul than him being a cognitive shadow.

[Aetherbound he/him]

1 hour ago, justsomekidinasuit said:

so both returned individuals on Nalthis, and Szeth require investiture to prolong their existence. despite there being some visual diferences in how both returned and Szeth are described, would it be wrong to say that Szeth is a kind of returned?

furthermore, if a dead person recieves enough investiture, could they come back to life?

I agree with CtrlAltDepressed, Szeth is not a cognitive shadow, he didn't quite die, unlike the Returned.

 

To answer the other question, probably not, the closest thing we've seen is cognitive shadows, which aren't really the same thing.

[Quantus he/him]

Szeth is a Cognitive Shadow, per the text (Vasher, specifically, in RoW) and per WOB, it's just that "Cognitive shadow" is a whole spectrum of states and not all of them have the same problems or requirements.  What Nale did was heal his body before his soul passed to the Beyond so it was able to reattach with it's natural support mechanism;and doesnt need the extra's that the Divine Breath (specifically) needs to sustain the attachment but also doesnt provide immortality or any other such Perk (which is likely what requires sustained Investiture fuel for Heralds and Returned, not sure about Shades).  

Or at least that's one theory, on the flip side Vasher says he firmly believes that he, Sezth, and the Heralds are all just sentient Investiture in the shape of a person that has passed on.  

 

 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

I was about to answer this, and treamayne beat me to it. 

I agree with what Treamayne said, he definetly died but was revived by stormlight, like when Lift revived gawx.