wax&wayne What happens when you chop a double gold Twinbournes head off?

[Creml1ng]

If you chop a double gold twinbournes head off, do they die? If not, from where do they regrow? From the torso because thats where the metals are or from the head because thats where the mind/soul is (which controls the healing).

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Creml1ng said:

If you chop a double gold twinbournes head off, do they die? If not, from where do they regrow? From the torso because thats where the metals are or from the head because thats where the mind/soul is (which controls the healing).

Let's start by saying that the Lord Ruler was exaggerating and lying when he was talking about surviving beheading:

Spoiler

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

TWG Posts (April 9, 2008)

But I don't think that means a gold compounder can't heal that. In Cosmere healing is done by the bigger portion of your body. In this case the headless body would be the main part of you, with your soul attached to it (not to your head), so you would regrow your head - if your body was still in contact with your goldminds. With enough healing attribute stored in your goldminds, you should be able to heal a beheading. But that would require a lot of healing, as you have to act very quickly and if you don't have enough healing, you will just die. And there are WoBs supporting that:

Spoiler

Soronir

About Miles from Alloy of Law and his regenerative powers. If he was bisected down the middle and the halves were separated immediately before the healing process could begin, would the two halves each regrow into a whole Miles?

Nepene

I heard this sort of situation arose with Hoid in Dragonsteel. He had his head cut off.

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. In all of the Cosmere's Shard-based magics, the greater portion of a bisected body regrows the lesser portion. If it were done EXACTLY halfway, the soul wold jump to one or the other randomly and that would regrow.

Amusingly, this first came up in 1999, six years before I got published. (I see someone else already mentioned the situation where I had to consider it.)

General Reddit 2013 (Feb. 20, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

[...]

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

To add more, your body has an intent on its own - to survive - and it will reach to any available source of healing even if your mind is unconscious. That’s why Vin or Elend were tapping pewter even when they were unconscious, their mind didn’t do that, it’s their body’s intent to survive that did that. The same would apply here as well, even without your head your body would be still trying to keep you alive just for a short while. If you have enough healing, you should be able to regrow your head - but again, that's my opinion on this topic.

Spoiler

Aradanftw

[SA spoilers edited out]

[...] and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. [...], and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. [...] uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. You may want to consider adding to your profile, or an Intro Post, what you have or have not yet read (whichever list is shorter) so that spoilers can be avoided when we answer questions like this.

3 hours ago, Creml1ng said:

If you chop a double gold twinbournes head off, do they die? If not, from where do they regrow? From the torso because thats where the metals are or from the head because thats where the mind/soul is (which controls the healing).

It's a bit unclear (possibly on purpose) as we have three examples that don't quite match.

1. For any magic that is definitively capable of healing a beheading, the head will regrow from the torso: (Spoilers for Hoid and Dawnshard)

• This is related to the way Shardplate is regrown - the part that is greater will always regrow the part that is lesser, because the Spiritweb is always throught the entire entity, so the larger part regrows the smaller part

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Has Hoid ever died before?

Brandon Sanderson

Define died. He has had his head chopped off. It just, like, didn't work.

Questioner

Didn't work?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. He actually ends the book Dragonsteel - that's unpublished - being beheaded. That event happened, although that book didn't happen as the book was written.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Spoiler

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

What if Hoid got cut by a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

Spoiler

/u/ph4mp573r

[Hoid] was beheaded in Dragonsteel Prime and the Dawnshard is what regrew his head. He makes a crack about always thinking his head would have grown a new body, not vice versa, as he stares at his own severed head.

/u/sambadaemon

Slightly related: If the Dawnshard let Hoid regrow his entire head, will it eventually give Rysn back the use of her legs?

Peter Ahlstrom

The different dawnshards have different powers.

Information subject to change when it appears in canon.

General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Quote

Halel (paraphrased)

If I were to cut an Elantrian's head off, would it still live? Just the head, the body, both or perhaps neither of them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The body would grow a new head, as most of the soul is in that part.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

2. The Lord Ruler likely lied about surviving beheadings, because he had reason to make people think they would not affect him.

Spoiler

TFE Ch 15:

Quote

Dockson frowned. “You’re serious about this Eleventh Metal business, then?”

Kelsier nodded. “I searched for two years to find a way to kill him. Men have tried everything—he ignores normal wounds, and decapitation only annoys him. A group of soldiers burned down his inn during one of the early wars. The Lord Ruler walked out as barely more than a skeleton, then healed in a matter of seconds.

“Only the stories of the Eleventh Metal offered any hope. But I can’t make it work! That’s why I had to go back to the palace. The Lord Ruler’s hiding something in that room—I can feel it. I can’t help thinking that if we knew what it was, we’d be able to stop him.”

WoP:

Quote

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

TWG Posts (April 9, 2008)

 

3. Then we have Miles, who was shot in the head (both by Wax and by himself), we know Wax's bullet did not behead him, but we don;t know how much damage was survived from Miles' own shotgun blast. - AoL Spoilers

• But Miles was also an F-Gold savant, so that may have influenced how much and how fast he could heal (Not just compounded healing, but Savant Healing compounded)

Spoiler

AoL Ch 13:

Quote

Miles’s masked head soon poked out between the cars. Waxillium fired a single quick shot, Pushing the bullet forward with Allomancy for extra speed against the howling wind. He nailed Miles right in the left eye socket. The man’s head snapped backward, and blood sprayed against the side of the railcar behind him. He stumbled, and Waxillium shot again, hitting him in the forehead.

The man reached up and ripped off his mask, revealing a hawk-like face with short black hair and prominent eyebrows. It was him. Miles. A lawkeeper, a man who should have known better. A Twinborn Compounder of awesome power. His eye grew back, and the head wound was gone in an eyeblink.

AoL Ch 15:

Quote

He stood back up. Some of the men were staring at him, but he didn’t care. He wasn’t like the criminal bosses he’d often arrested in the Roughs. They had to worry about looking strong in front of their men, lest they be killed by someone who wanted to seize power.

Miles couldn’t be killed, and his men knew it. He’d once put a shotgun to his own head in front of them to prove it.

WoB:

Quote

Questioner

There are Allomantic savants, are there Feruchemical savants?

Brandon Sanderson

Much harder to do. My feeling on Feruchemical savants was because it was your own power in the first place, you can't steep in it so much in the way. But, if you can get someone else's power or if you are fueling your Feruchemy another way, you would become one. So, the Lord Ruler is a good example.

Questioner

Was Miles a...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Miles would be the same sort of thing.

Questioner

Is that why he didn't die as quickly in the execution?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

So yeah. Normally no but if you can Compound you become... basically that is how I am explaining part of the Compounding abilities. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Finally we have this seemingly definitive WoB (but it doesn not match the information about how TLR was exaggerating - and sidesteps if the answer is actually about Compounded gold):

Spoiler

Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

So any extreme healing will not care how the body was damaged, but it does not actually say that Gold Compounding counts as this type of healing.

Hope that helps

[Sky Breaker]

In aol it says that miles had survived beheadings and it said something similar about TLR 

[Creml1ng]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:26 PM, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the Shard. You may want to consider adding to your profile, or an Intro Post, what you have or have not yet read (whichever list is shorter) so that spoilers can be avoided when we answer questions like this.

It's a bit unclear (possibly on purpose) as we have three examples that don't quite match.

1. For any magic that is definitively capable of healing a beheading, the head will regrow from the torso: (Spoilers for Hoid and Dawnshard)

• This is related to the way Shardplate is regrown - the part that is greater will always regrow the part that is lesser, because the Spiritweb is always throught the entire entity, so the larger part regrows the smaller part

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

What if Hoid got cut by a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

  Reveal hidden contents

/u/ph4mp573r

[Hoid] was beheaded in Dragonsteel Prime and the Dawnshard is what regrew his head. He makes a crack about always thinking his head would have grown a new body, not vice versa, as he stares at his own severed head.

/u/sambadaemon

Slightly related: If the Dawnshard let Hoid regrow his entire head, will it eventually give Rysn back the use of her legs?

Peter Ahlstrom

The different dawnshards have different powers.

Information subject to change when it appears in canon.

General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

2. The Lord Ruler likely lied about surviving beheadings, because he had reason to make people think they would not affect him.

  Reveal hidden contents

TFE Ch 15:

WoP:

 

3. Then we have Miles, who was shot in the head (both by Wax and by himself), we know Wax's bullet did not behead him, but we don;t know how much damage was survived from Miles' own shotgun blast. - AoL Spoilers

• But Miles was also an F-Gold savant, so that may have influenced how much and how fast he could heal (Not just compounded healing, but Savant Healing compounded)

  Reveal hidden contents

AoL Ch 13:

AoL Ch 15:

WoB:

 

Finally we have this seemingly definitive WoB (but it doesn not match the information about how TLR was exaggerating - and sidesteps if the answer is actually about Compounded gold):

  Reveal hidden contents

Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

So any extreme healing will not care how the body was damaged, but it does not actually say that Gold Compounding counts as this type of healing.

Hope that helps

Thanks for the answer! That helps a lot. Will add a list to my profile to avoid spoilers (thanks for the tip)

[Cerulean He/him]

Im not sure actually if a gold healing savant would survive a beheading. I think that perhaps the sword/axe/etc would start cutting through, but the head would attach back to the neck before fully being separated from the body.

[+hwiles]

If the head isn't fully separated from the body the two objects will attempt to reconnect, otherwise the body simply grows a new head and the old one dies. Due to how extremely problematic this depiction is however, I don't expect to ever see it occur on page. Honestly, if gold compounders are getting decapitated, there are way worse systemic problems at play.