Investiture - As a Term

[Aeshdan he/him]

Ok, that is how I saw the Investiture at first. But then, it is (1)useless for the pure ferrings, which is not true - soulbearers are being studied, so they do something detectable (2) the game says different.

Also, AA author also called nicrosil "Investiture storage". So it is not the game term.

This is where it is getting confusing, since the game calls it both a connection and the power (which makes me think of connection-power duality, i.e. the connection being a kind of power and vise versa ).

ANyway, I've gotten quite confused. So, to increase the confusion, and represent my ideas in the form more native to my mind, I've started drawing these series of ASD (awful stick drawings), that represent my random ideas about the Cosmere (mostly scadrial for now), and how I think investiture, etc, operates:

ASD1: Human soul. All humans share this part.

ASD2, ASD3, ASD4 - Feruchemy

ASD5, ASD6 - Allomancy

ASD7, ASD8, ASD9, ASD10- Hemalurgy 101.

P.S. I7ll remove post if you think it to be inappropriate. Please tell me.

Alert! This post has been spiked by viruses! Alert!

[Satsuoni he/him]

Alert! This post has been spiked by viruses! Alert!

Um, what?

[EDIT] That does it Deleted.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Odium's_Shard]

I am also wondering what ReaderAt was referring to? Did they disagree with the content, feel it was insecure, or was scrutinizing your artistic talent? Personally, I thought they did the job of being incredibly descriptive, even if they were slightly too simplified for my liking (ie, the line colours needs a key).

[Satsuoni he/him]

Don't know. The images are still there (links in the quote:)), though, with the spren now. The vague key was in the above post.

[Odium's_Shard]

Yes I read it when you replied to Telcontar's views about the artwork. I'd like to see some featuring the other magic systems. If you need any help with any of the theory work, or opinions about how it should be represented in ASD format, feel free to contact me or Telcontar (I'm sure he won't mind me recommending him).

Here's a list of the systems that I know enough about to help you:

• Surgebinding (strong)
  
• The Metallic Arts (strong)
  
• Awakening (medium)
  

Anyway, after slowly watching the derailisation of this topic collapse, I'd like to push just slightly for further posts to be slightly relevant to the last post that I can see that makes a contribution to the thread's topic (terminisation of 'Investiture', in verbal format), which is #25.

It is in response mostly to your post, as far as I can tell, Satsuoni.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, as I've said, I have added two illustrations for Nahel bond, as I see it. To comment on that, I say that a spren, IMO, is not Invested object, but rather the agent of Investiture itself, rather like a bit of Spiritweb stuck to the spike. We may recall that Allomancy, etc, were called "manifestations of Investiture", so I'd say that Surgebinding is another manifestation, spren is an agent/ Investiture..splinter? not sure how to call that. And I am not sure what to call Investiture itself now, which is why I started to draw in the first place...

[Odium's_Shard]

I understand what you are saying, so that in the same way, not all metal on Scadrial is Invested, it still is a gateway to that power?

Makes sense to me, but I agree that it, Spiritually, applies like a graft to your sDNA, enabling you to convert the power of Stormlight into a meaningful powet through yourself as the 'vessel'. So in this way, how you are Invested as a 'connection' is that the power is channeled through the spren, in much the same way as through Allomancy it is the metal.

However, I propose that unlike Allomancy, where the power comes from Preservation, which has a holder and thus a power source to distribute power from, Honor's 'power pool' is constantly leaking into the world, as there is no Cognitive presence to control its issuing of power, through the Origin, causes these Highstorms as it washes over the landscape, and can only be caught by the objects that have a Spiritual pocket in them in Roshar, gems.

Thats how I'm going to see it for now. Feel free to disagree, it just helps me flesh out my ideas.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Yes, that too. Also, I think an object can only be invested if there is a uninvested object, whereas a spren is more or less (imo) pure investiture form, absorbing stormlight to form "body", and cause minor effects (gluing stuff...). So without investiture, there would be no spren.

I agree with the part of Honor's body leaking, but I am not sure it creates Highstorm, being more of a mind that it uses the more or less natural pattern (i.e. there were Highstorms when Honor was alive.. maybe. Mainly because it said in the book "ride the highstorm no longer", so apparetly riding the storm was a more common occurrence when Honor was ok)

Also, it was said, that the power of a shard can function without cognitive aspect, but only on minimal level, like passive opposition to its antagonists, or following intent. But it wants the mind, too (when whole, at least).

[Odium's_Shard]

I can't agree that a spren is 'purely Investiture' in the same way that no thing can be contributed wholly of 'connection to the power of a Shard'. I feel that spren exist because of change, and change powers a transfer of energy. When this energy is transferred through a spren to perform a certain action, ie, light a fire, the wind moving, etc, then the spren receives some of this energy and comes into being. In a similar way, I feel that a spren such as Syl, is not the cause of the Nahel bond, but feeds off of, and thus exists, by the energy leaked from the 'connection' and the Investiture between a human and Honor.

So, the spren seems like it is the cause of the change in the Spiritweb of the human that allows them to take in Stormlight (can the hole in their Spiritual defense in the Spiritual plane that must be required to take in this Spiritual energy be abused or taken advantage of by Honor, in much the same way as Ruin can with Hemalurgical constructs?) and change it from raw power to a manifestation of Investiture, Gravity, Transformation, Pressure, etc, but in actual fact just thrive, scavenge almost, from the leaking energy.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Oh, I am not sure if it adds anything to the discussion, but apparently Vasher referred to Breaths as "BioChromatic Investiture":

"There are four kinds of BioChromatic entities. The first, and most spectacular, are the Returned. They're called gods here in Hallandren, but I'd rather call them Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. What is odd about them is that they're the only naturally occurring BioChromatic entity, which is theoretically the explanation for why they can't use or bestow their BioChromatic Investiture. Of course, the fact is that every living being is born with a certain BioChromatic Investiture. This could also explain why Type Ones retain sentience."

Emphasis mine.

And I think that may be the earliest mention of Investiture in his books (by publishing date), but not sure about that.

Also, I've illustrated the process of Lifeless creation as I understand it, in the same collection.

[Odium's_Shard]

So Vasher thinks that they are 'Invested BioChromatically'... Which makes it sound like they are Invested because Endowment has given them this power, and so the connection must exist from birth. Do Drabs lose this connection? Is this why they have no 'people sense', because if my ideas are right, then storing Investiture stores spiritual awareness.

[Satsuoni he/him]

The loss goes both ways, though. Other people with Breaths cannot feel drabs either.

The strange thing is that he uses this term at all. Is it that common? was he the one who invented it? Do you remember where in Cosmere timeline Warbreaker is?

[Odium's_Shard]

This has just given me a great idea. The writer of the AA always reminded me of Vasher's nonchalant personality, and he always did seem to be the most knowledgeable of the Scholars, even about other matters. Maybe he is both the Writer of the AA, and a member of Seventeenth Shard. That would explain why Hoid appeared in Warbreaker, to keep an eye on Vasher's participation in the events on Nalthis.

I'm still convinced that Seventeenth Shard are either: doing the right thing and Hoid is the villain, or Seventeenth Shard are trying to do the right thing by helping people out, but are actually causing damage to the balance of power in the Cosmere, and Hoid had to go against these good people in order to do what is right and sacrifice his personal feelings to save the Cosmere. I just don't get the sense from either the Letter in tWoK or anything else that SS mean much harm.

EDIT: I sound way too full of myself about this idea in the post, I'm sure at least somebody has already suggested Vasher is the writer of the AA, but I only just thought about it.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Satsuoni he/him]

That is always a possibility. Him, or somebody taught by him (Vivenna?). I don't think he was a member during Warbreaker, but it is hard to tell. Still, when was it? I don't remember the timeline well.

[Lance Alvein he/him]

Warbreaker takes place before AOL/WOK, but after Mistborn (according to the most recent chronology given)

If this is the case, it's possible that it could be Vasher, but didn't Brandon also state that all the AA are written by the same person?

[Satsuoni he/him]

But not necessarily at the same time as the events... And I don't remember clearly about it being the same person.

[EDIT]

Yes, the same person. Weird.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Odium's_Shard]

I too am not sure if there has been a definitive list of Cosmere events... but I do remember something on Brandon's site that gave the placement of a few key moments/publications. If Vasher was talking about Investiture's in Warbreaker, as well as in Alloy of Law and tWoK AA, that means that Warbreaker must come before/near the time of AoL and tWoK, in order for Vasher to firstly, still be alive, and to be developing similar concepts.

The only flaw with it being Vasher is that, while he seems to know everything there is to know about magic systems, especially creating Awakening into a fine science, there is no hint whatsoever that he has ever been to Scadrial or Roshar or Sel in order to develop personal understanding of the magic systems. However, Vasher may be using the same 'time-cheat' as Hoid and most of 17th Shard in order to remain alive, and so maybe Warbreaker happened long before AoL.

However, the AA in AoL directly relates to topics of the time, such as the newly reformed Terris peoples (or maybe it is completely irrelevant, after all do the Terris still exist? I'm Sazed would have kept them, but... I thought Keepers were all castrated by TLR), and their inability to conquer the secrets of Nicrosil, a newly found metal.

I'm still interested to know whether 17thS even know about the Southern People of Scadrial.

[Telcontar]

*performing dark rituals, summoning obscure forces from the depths of the realm of death and destruction and tearing this thread from its grave, back into some drab-like form of existence. Adding some spiritual energy to give it some sentience and lean back*

Dear admins, I know you don't like thread-necromancy, but what I'm willing to share (with Odium_s Shard and Satsuoni at least, cause noone else seemed to be interested in this thread before) refers to this exact thread and discussion. So it would make no sense at all to start a new one. Feel free to spike me for it, it will only increase my necromany-Investiture.

Yeah. So I was editing the wiki-article about Investiture. Brandon had told us about Innate Investiture in the Forum Q&A, so after being quite impressed with that new information I went to the wiki to check out the information about Investiture and it turned out there was like... not much. So long story short, I edited it, which made me think about Investiture and I realized that - after all - I agree with the OP in that Investiture describes a state.

You may recall my former argument that Investiture was about transfer of spiritual energy. Well, I don't think that's it anymore.

Investiture describes the situation that a person or an object possesses spiritual energy

That would be my new attempt at a definition of Investiture. I'm not sure whether to add: "..., which gives him/her/it a connection to a Shard"

Talking about Innate Investiture made me realize that even the smallest amount of spiritual energy a person has, is called Investiture. Appearently sentience needs spiritual energy, so every human would have Innate Investiture. That has been confirmed for people on Scadrial and Nalthis. As to Roshar, people also speak of the Creator of humankind. Also humans don't seem to be native to Roshar. If they do indeed come from a place like the 'Tranquiline Halls' it seems not too crazy a theory to say that there is some spiritual energy involved as well.

As to Sel, it may be tougher. Don't know if Selians are natives? If not, there may be some implication of the strong connection between planet and magic.

Invested objects are quite simple, you put spiritual energy into objects, you get an Invested object. By Awakening, by filling/tapping it.

In actual magic it's harder to say. For example Allomancy. You have the manifestation of Investiture called Allomancy. This is what makes you able to burn metals. When you actually burn a metal, you start another Investiture which lasts until you stop it or the metal is gone. What happens though, is that the user himself is Invested on top of his normal Investiture. In other words (according to the given definition) he gets more spiritual energy which makes him able to push coins, soothe people, slow time. The outlet of the additional power is written in his spiritweb (AoL Ars Arcanum).

That's also why Allomancy is end-positive. Cause the practicioner of Allomancy gets additional spiritual energy from the Shard in order to perform his magic.

So there is two manifestations of Investiture when someone stellpushes something. The basic magictype Allomancy and one's state when burning a metal, which is probably a type of Allomancy.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, this particular revelation (now here in full), haven't changed my mind much.

3. Is there a cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard’s power inside someone? For example, people on Scadrial had little bits of Preservation in them that made them sentient (and, with enough Preservation, Allomancy). This obviously doesn’t make these people Slivers or Splinters, so I was just wondering if you had a word for it.

In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different--but those people are invested. I term this Innate Investiture, and it is similar to what happens with people on Nalthis. That is also innate.

Although maybe a little

Essentially, it is possible that Roshar people don't have "Innate Investiture". That may seem weird (and probably is), but that would mean that they don't get born with a part of themselves that is of shard per se, or can be used as a connection to shard naturally, and have to do something to get that connection.

I stand by my limited/unlimited types of investiture, with the unlimited types (like Breaths) cycling their power as it is expended.

And.. I'll probably write more when I am awake.