BoundByHonor he/him Posted May 28 Report Share Posted May 28 This is my first time posting here, so bear with me as I explore this recent theory of mine. I've been thinking recently about the connection of the number 16 to both the Metallic Arts and the number of Shards of Adonalsium. Firstly, let me disclaim that I am aware that there were not necessarily supposed to be 16 Shards, as the manner of the Shattering had some effect on the way that the Shards were split up (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218/#e6634). With that out of the way, I was thinking about how, during the Classical period on Scadrial, we originally accepted that 10 metals were Allomantically/Feruchemically viable, later finding out that 16 pure metals were viable, with God Metals and alloys being non-natural, but viable, additions. This reminded me of how, on Roshar, we find ourselves in a somewhat similar period of history and again seemingly observe a similar pattern of 10 abilities in the form of the Surges. This similarity is also supported by, in both periods, a bit of doubt by characters with more knowledge (by this I mean the Fused and those who theorized malatium) on the actuality of the number of metals or Surges. The Fused call the Surge of Adhesion a "false" Surge, or more accurately, a Surge of "Honor alone". This seems to hint at the idea of something like a "God Surge", something that (like atium, lerasium, raysium, trellium, and malatium) should be neglected from a list of natural Surges. We also know from the Fused that the This gets at my working theory. If we take the pattern of discovery from Scadrial (going from 10 abilities to 16), then it seems to me that this pattern should also follow on Roshar. As Roshar progresses, it seems reasonable that they might start to discount any God Surges, like Adhesion, and find Surges that complete the 16 model, possibly with the abilities of Radiants (including resonances and abilities gained by possession of 2 Surges like the Reverse Lashing) being likened to something like malatium or other unexplored alloys between natural metals. With all that said, let me know what y'all think of my theory! I have some questions if y'all want to discuss/theorize about what I've said here: How do we think (as far as I know, we don't have much hard knowledge about this) the original Surgebinders on Ashyn accessed the Surges? How might that have stunted their discovery of the natural Surges? What might be the other natural Surges? (This question can be theorized around assuming Adhesion is a natural Surge or otherwise) What might the God Surges be for the Shards we are aware of? More entertaining, what sorts of abilities might a Surgebinder be granted by using the Surge? Thanks for reading! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoundByHonor he/him Posted May 28 Author Report Share Posted May 28 I meant to add also that the same logic could apply to the system of Heightenings on Nalthis, with the 16th Heightening being possibly close to Ascension to Shardhood or possibly close to the level of Investiture possessed by Adonalsium. I don't have nearly as much evidence for this, but it would follow the pattern as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aredor Posted May 28 Report Share Posted May 28 (edited) Excellent idea! I just have a few problems with it. First, each Shard has a different number associated with them. For instance, Preservation is heavily associated with 16 (16 Allomantic metals, 16 Feruchemial metals), Odium with 9 (9 'brands' of Fused, 9 unmade), Cultivation with 3 (3 planets, 3 moons, 3 Bondsmith spren), though hers I'm not so sure on. Anyway, Honor is very focused on 10. 10 Heralds, 10 orders of KR, 10 Surges, 10 gas giants, 10 silver kingdoms, 10 oathgates, 10 deaths, tensets (the Rosharan equivalent of a dozen), etc, etc. So there being ten surges doesn't really surprise me at all. Second, it's not really possible for there to be more orders of KR. After Ishar used his mega Bondsmith powers, the surges were formalized and locked in place. The specific spren for each order were formalized, as were what surges each order would have access to. They can't 'unlock' more surges because there are no more surges to be unlocked. As to Adhesion being a 'God' surge, Quote LettersWords The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later? Brandon Sanderson That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15656 So either way of thinking is valid. But as he said, be aware she is very, very, biased. Also, try not to double post. If there's something else you'd like to add to your original post, just edit it. Thanks! Edited May 28 by Aredor 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 28 Report Share Posted May 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, BoundByHonor said: With all that said, let me know what y'all think of my theory! Aredor said it all, the 10 Surges came from Honor as that's the number associated with Honor. 16 is associated with Preservation, that's why there were 16 base metals. The Surges on Roshar came not only from Honor, but from Cultivation and Odium as well, as their interaction with Roshar itself cause the magic system to form in such a way (that's how all magic systems are appearing in Cosmere), plus perception of people have a little effect on what is actually considered a fundamental force (Surges are representation of fundamental forces in Cosmere). It is possible for more Surges to appear but that would require a Shard to most likely heavily invest into Roshar, messing up with the entire system. WoBs: Spoiler Questioner I'm just curious, there are 16 Allomantic metals, 16 Feruchemical metals, there are 16 Shards of Adonalsium. Are there 16 surges? Brandon Sanderson No. Questioner So there's no correlation? Brandon Sanderson 10 is an important number on Roshar. FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018) Spoiler Argent If a Shard wanted to affect another Shard’s magic system, would they need to Invest themselves in the world, or can they just kind of show up and do things? Brandon Sanderson “Affect their magic system”? What do you mean by that? Argent So for Roshar, let’s say additional Surges or modified Surges. For Scadrial different metals. For Nalthis-- Brandon Sanderson That would require more than just showing up. Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016) Spoiler Argent My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish? Brandon Sanderson Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these are the fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases. Argent Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example? Brandon Sanderson That, I would say yes. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) Spoiler Argent Spren grant control over surges because surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Spoiler LewsTherinTelescope You've said before that, while the Ten Surges arose due to perception of what things are fundamental forces, there were "seeds" that influenced what people perceived as fundamental. Is knowledge of the Rosharan Shards and Dawnshards the "seed" referenced here? Brandon Sanderson The Shards yes, but I wouldn't say the Dawnshards were involved directly--but the Shards were influenced by the Dawnshards, so... It gets muddy. General Reddit 2021 (March 11, 2021) 4 hours ago, BoundByHonor said: How do we think (as far as I know, we don't have much hard knowledge about this) the original Surgebinders on Ashyn accessed the Surges? How might that have stunted their discovery of the natural Surges? All Surges are natural. Surge means power of creation, fundamental forces of Cosmere. Surgebinding means binding powers of creation. Allomancy is also a form of Surgebinding, but generally speaking Rosharan manifestation of Surgebinding is the one we all call Surgebinding. Ashynite Surgebinding was disease-based - people were falling ill and with that they were gaining powers. This is mostly a Cultivation-based magic system, but it changed in some way since the destruction of Ashyn. Spoiler Kimbobhi Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's? Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers. Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition. [...] YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Questioner So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic? Brandon Sanderson It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn... Questioner How does that work? Brandon Sanderson Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the Investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to-- Questioner To transmit it. Brandon Sanderson --o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore. Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015) Spoiler R'Shara So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based? Brandon Sanderson That was the diseased based magic. R'Shara Yeah, before- Brandon Sanderson I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018) Spoiler Vanahian Brandon has said that the Ashynite disease-based magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system? Brandon Sanderson I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like Investiture and microorganisms. General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020) Spoiler Questioner You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested. All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) Edited May 28 by alder24 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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