Connection vs. Shardblades/plate

[Trusk'our he/him]

A Surgebinder seems to mostly rely on having a strong Connection to their Spren to access their Surges as well as to summon their Blade and Plate.

We know that Tapping Connection via F-duralumin can make you a Squire to a Radiant, or even multiple Radiants at once.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394-dragoncon-2019/#e12917

Questioner

I know Hemalurgy [has to go to mix and match powers], would it be possible to use Feruchemy for Connection to hack into multiple Knights Radiant, kind of act as a Squire to more than one at the same time.

Brandon Sanderson

Great question! I think you could make this work. I think it would take a little bit of legwork, but I think what you're wanting to do could indeed work. More likely in that case though, you could probably be a Squire to multiple Orders. *Hesitantly* Yeah...I think that would work, but I don't think it's the easiest way to do what you want to do. I think there are easier ways.

So, does this mean that a Connector Ferring Tapping enough Connection could not only use a Radiant's own Surgebinding powers, but that they could brute force summon their opponent's Blade and/or Plate by having more Connection to them than the Radiant themselves?

Realistically, you'd probably need to be a Compounder to pull this off, but it would be pretty interesting. 

Maybe the Knight's Blade would be more or less off limits due to their sapience, but maybe the Plate or a dead Blade would be easier to trick.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

but that they could brute force summon their opponent's Blade and/or Plate by having more Connection to them than the Radiant themselves?

Do you mean a dead blade? Unlikely, because that is not just Connection:

Spoiler

yahel26 (paraphrased)

Since the gemstones on Shardblades seems to be infused with Stormlight, could a Surgebinder draw that Stormlight and use it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No he couldn't. You see, that Stormlight is the Shardbearer's life energy, you wouldn't be able to draw it just like I can't draw your life energy from you. If you were to extract that gemstone from the Shardblade it is possible.

yahel26 (paraphrased)

But then the gemstone would go dark.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Exactly.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 16, 2019)

The Bonding Process for a dead blade gemstone (the reason you have to carry it around to bond it) is because you are storing part of your own Innate Investiture into the gem to create the bond to the dead blade (so really, it's connection to a bit of yourself). 

For a Radiant, Connection is how Squire Bonds form - but that's not a bond between the Squire and their Radiant's Spren - just the Knight and their Squire (as far as we know so far). 

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

So, does this mean that a Connector Ferring Tapping enough Connection could not only use a Radiant's own Surgebinding powers, but that they could brute force summon their opponent's Blade and/or Plate by having more Connection to them than the Radiant themselves?

Certainly not. It is not 'just' a Connection, it is a Nahel bond specifically that grants them both.

You can become squire by using Connection, because that is all squires are, people with close (positive I suspect) Connection to Radiant. But Radiants are more than that.

Bondsmiths could not steal Bonds until Honor's restrictions started falling away, and even then it does not seem to be trivial. And Bondsmiths have far grater control over Connection than Ferring.

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Realistically, you'd probably need to be a Compounder to pull this off, but it would be pretty interesting.

Still no, as it is not just question of magnitude.

And even if it was, Living spren are effectively becoming part of soul of the Radiant, you won't overcome that, no more than Connector Compounder could take away Mistborn's Connection to Preservation.

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Maybe the Knight's Blade would be more or less off limits due to their sapience, but maybe the Plate or a dead Blade would be easier to trick.

Still no.

Plate is Knights it is coded to their Investiture (and so does not interfere with their Surges).
Dead blade is still not just Connection, and as @Treamayne showed is also coded to specific person.

Edited June 5 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:18 PM, Treamayne said:

Do you mean a dead blade? Unlikely, because that is not just Connection:

  Hide contents

yahel26 (paraphrased)

Since the gemstones on Shardblades seems to be infused with Stormlight, could a Surgebinder draw that Stormlight and use it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No he couldn't. You see, that Stormlight is the Shardbearer's life energy, you wouldn't be able to draw it just like I can't draw your life energy from you. If you were to extract that gemstone from the Shardblade it is possible.

yahel26 (paraphrased)

But then the gemstone would go dark.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Exactly.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 16, 2019)

The Bonding Process for a dead blade gemstone (the reason you have to carry it around to bond it) is because you are storing part of your own Innate Investiture into the gem to create the bond to the dead blade (so really, it's connection to a bit of yourself). 

That is a really interesting WoB.

Are we sure it doesn't just mean that the Investiture in the gem is keyed to the Identity of the Shardbearer?

Otherwise, wouldn't they become Drab, since that Stormlight is eventually lost?

In any case though, perhaps Blanking Identity plus Tapping Connection would do the trick of messing with their Blade or Plate?

On 6/4/2024 at 11:30 PM, therunner said:

Certainly not. It is not 'just' a Connection, it is a Nahel bond specifically that grants them both.

The Nahel Bond is Connection. It has some Identity mixed in, but it's mostly just Connection. 

Unchained Bondsmiths can steal Connections, and since Ishar almost stole Dalinar's Bond to the Stormfather, this seems to indicate Bonds being little more than strong Connections to Invested enough Spren.

Also, in RoW, doesn't the Stormfather say that the Connections Dalinar sees in the young soldier who Dalinar uses his abilities on are much like the Nahel Bond, only much weaker?

On 6/4/2024 at 11:30 PM, therunner said:

Plate is Knights it is coded to their Investiture (and so does not interfere with their Surges).
Dead blade is still not just Connection, and as @Treamayne showed is also coded to specific person.

Good points.

What about Blanking Identity and Tapping Connection then?

[therunner he/him]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

The Nahel Bond is Connection. It has some Identity mixed in, but it's mostly just Connection.

It cannot be just that, simply because there is also e.g. Luhel bond. What is the difference otherwise?

Additionally, Oaths are needed part of Nahel bond (as far as we know), which is different from simply Bonding Deadblades.

And Identity is also Involved (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9407 )

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Unchained Bondsmiths can steal Connections, and since Ishar almost stole Dalinar's Bond to the Stormfather, this seems to indicate Bonds being little more than strong Connections to Invested enough Spren.

Even so, Ferring is nowhere near the capabilites of Bondsmith, much less unchained one.

Both Plate and Spren would retain their Connection to Knight, and the Bond.
Don't forget that Oaths are necessary here (and they have to be accepted), and Ferring will swear no Oaths.
 

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Good points.

What about Blanking Identity and Tapping Connection then?

Still won't work.

Blanking Identity won't work in my opinion, because it seems that it does not even let you tap others Metalminds. It might even let you be severely influenced by the Spren if you tried to Connect to them (sort of like reverse breaking into Hemalurgic Constructs).

[Treamayne]

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

Additionally, Oaths are needed part of Nahel bond

Technically speaking, Oaths are required for the Radiant Bond, which is a version of a Nahel bond, but not the only version. 

Spoiler

Quote

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

36 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

In any case though, perhaps Blanking Identity plus Tapping Connection would do the trick of messing with their Blade or Plate?

I doubt it, because the point of the Gem Bond is to pull through something that is part of you (same identity), not a Null object (no Identity). If you could somehow Tap a copy of their identity. . . maybe.

Also, Shardplate may be possible, because that does not have any Identity associated with it (I can add references if you need, but it's stated a lot that anybody can use a set of Plate; and, after the Tower (WoK), they even mention that capturing a large enough piece would allow you to "steal" it by regrowing it from your piece. Dalinar was happy that his helm had been destroyed and the only captured piece was his gauntlet, which was not large enough for the Parshendi to use this way) .

[Trusk'our he/him]

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

It cannot be just that, simply because there is also e.g. Luhel bond. What is the difference otherwise?

I think that the Luhel Bond is made through a different kind of Connection, perhaps one that Connects the Physical Aspects of the person and the Aether. 

We know that different types of Connection exist from Dalinar's conversation with the Stormfather in RoW. It seems to be more a matter of what is Connected that determines what that Connection does (i.e. the Connection to people, places, ideas, and even times).

30 minutes ago, therunner said:

Even so, Ferring is nowhere near the capabilites of Bondsmith, much less unchained one.

Oh definitely. I'm not trying to compare those two, I'm just trying to think about how a Feruchemist could screw with a Surgebinder if it ever came to blows.

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Also, Shardplate may be possible, because that does not have any Identity associated with it (I can add references if you need, but it's stated a lot that anybody can use a set of Plate; and, after the Tower (WoK), they even mention that capturing a large enough piece would allow you to "steal" it by regrowing it from your piece. Dalinar was happy that his helm had been destroyed and the only captured piece was his gauntlet, which was not large enough for the Parshendi to use this way) .

What about Szeth not being able to wear Plate without interference with his Honorblade occurring, or when in one of Dalinar's visions he needed to have his Plate removed to fly with the assistance of a Windrunner?

Does a Radiant's Plate have no Identity linking, or is it just dead Plate?

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

What about Szeth not being able to wear Plate without interference with his Honorblade occurring, or when in one of Dalinar's visions he needed to have his Plate removed to fly with the assistance of a Windrunner?

Does a Radiant's Plate have no Identity linking, or is it just dead Plate?

Those are not about Plate or Identity - that is simple Investiture blocks Investiture. Plate, being Spren in Physical Form, is highly invested, and therefore resistant to Lashings. Dead Plate, as shown in RoW, is content as-it-is and does not require Connection to use (but does form a small Connection during use, which is how it molds to size and allows the face plate to be 1-way translucent). Make one wonder if the Deadeye Blades would be in so much pain if that stupid bonding gem were removed and they were not constantly going back-and-forth. Szeth, not being able to use Plate in teh WoK Prologue was part of teh foreshadowing that he was using an Honorblade, and not Radiant Surges.

A Radiant's Plate would not block them; but plate can (and does) block Honorblades and HB Surges (which is likely why Heralds never used Plate).