Wind and Truth: What is the loophole? [Discuss]

[r0cketm00se]

The idea that there's a loophole in Dalinar and Odium's contract is especially interesting to me because it seems like it can't be based on tricky wording, so it should be obvious, but somehow Wit can't figure it out. I'm really interested to see how Brandon resolves this.

A few things I've noticed that might be important:

1. It is a contest "to the death." Can Odium name himself? And if so, what would have to happen for Odium to "die"? And how could Dalinar hope to do it?

2. Rayse-Odium promised to spare anyone born into Kharbranth, and apparently TOdium is still bound by that. If Dalinar chooses someone from Kharbranth as champion, will it be impossible for Odium to win?

3. Another part of the agreement is that the champion is allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru unharmed. If Odium names himself champion and shows up as Taravangian, is it possible he gets harmed by Dalinar's forces because they don't realize he's Odium?

Edited June 7 by r0cketm00se

[Elder]

Something I picked up on: the Champion needs to be willing. Dalinar intends to be his own champion.  If he is unwilling to fight, Odium is free.

if Odium somehow managed to turn Renarin, that could stay Dalinar’s hand.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1. The contract assumes that somebody survives. Odium may go for a suicide bomber to take the other champion with him.
2. Odium may force them into harming his champion. He could be carrying the equivalent of a nuclear weapon onto the top of Urithiru.
3. Odium may force the Radiants into violating the peace treaty after the contest. Maybe he starts crucifying the population of the areas he still holds, forcing Dalinar to attack.

[Isilel]

Honestly, the deal that Dalinar ended up making with Odium was so incredibly vague, that I don't think that any one loophole or even change of the Vessel could be of critical importance. My particular quibble with it is that it doesn't cover the Radiant spren. 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, r0cketm00se said:

1. It is a contest "to the death." Can Odium name himself? And if so, what would have to happen for Odium to "die"? And how could Dalinar hope to do it?

It's a contest of champions, so no. Odium can't name himself. He has to designate a champion that will fight in his name. Dalinar doesn't fight in his own name, he's representing Honor. 

For Odium to die he would have to be either Splintered (like Honor) or Taravangian would have to be killed, which is probably impossible to do by Dalinar alone (unless he will have Nightblood) - Odium is much stronger than a Bondsmith is.

9 hours ago, r0cketm00se said:

2. Rayse-Odium promised to spare anyone born into Kharbranth, and apparently TOdium is still bound by that. If Dalinar chooses someone from Kharbranth as champion, will it be impossible for Odium to win?

That's an interesting idea. That should work. Or rather Odium would be able to still win the contest but that would mean a broken oath to Taravangian, which would expose him to attacks, just like if he were to break his word to Dalinar. Shards can break their oaths but there are deadly consequences of doing that. But finding someone willing to align with Dalinar from Kharbranth, a city which just declared neutrality, is probably not possible anyway - unless he finds someone who was just born in Kharbranth, as Odium still can't harm them. RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me."

OB ch 112:

Quote

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

 

9 hours ago, r0cketm00se said:

3. Another part of the agreement is that the champion is allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru unharmed. If Odium names himself champion and shows up as Taravangian, is it possible he gets harmed by Dalinar's forces because they don't realize he's Odium?

Dalinar would not harm or allow Taravangian to get harmed. Dalinar had every opportunity and reasons to sentence Taravangian to death, but he didn't do that as he wanted Taravangian to witness Dalinar's victory and prove him wrong. Dalinar even said that he wished for Taravangian to be there on the day he will win against Odium. He still treats him as a friend. RoW ch 66:

Quote

“No, Taravangian,” Dalinar said. “You have lived your convictions, however misguided they may be. Now I’m going to live mine. And at the end, when I face Odium and win, you will be there. I’ll give you this gift.”
“The pain of knowing I was wrong?”
“You told me earlier that you wished to be proven wrong. If you’re sincere—and this was never about being right or about gaining power—then on that day we can embrace, knowing it is all over. Old friend.”

 

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• Odium may force them into harming his champion. He could be carrying the equivalent of a nuclear weapon onto the top of Urithiru.

Both champions are meant to be unharmed by either side's forces. If Odium wants to provoke them through intentionally harming the people of Urithiru, it will count as Odium breaking the terms, not Dalinar. RoW ch 112:

Quote

We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces

 

 

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

Honestly, the deal that Dalinar ended up making with Odium was so incredibly vague, that I don't think that any one loophole or even change of the Vessel could be of critical importance. My particular quibble with it is that it doesn't cover the Radiant spren. 

Spren are main participants of the war with Odium, they've been fighting him from the very beginning. Every spren that has joined Dalinar's side, or supports him, will be counted as his ally - that includes all Cryptics, most Cultivationspren at least 50 Honorspren and many others. Some spren factions are neutral in this conflict, like most Honorspren or Inkspren. Those, like Shinovar or Tukar, are most likely not treated as a part of the terms (as neither side can represent them). Plus Odium is meant to maintain peace, so I think he might be prevented from fighting with anyone after the contest is over, even if they weren't a part of the treaty. RoW ch 112:

Quote

You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.

 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

12 hours ago, r0cketm00se said:

2. Rayse-Odium promised to spare anyone born into Kharbranth, and apparently TOdium is still bound by that. If Dalinar chooses someone from Kharbranth as champion, will it be impossible for Odium to win?

This seems unlikely to me, as the loophole is beneficial for Odium, not Dalinar.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Both champions are meant to be unharmed by either side's forces. If Odium wants to provoke them through intentionally harming the people of Urithiru, it will count as Odium breaking the terms, not Dalinar. RoW ch 112:

No, the idea is here that Odium just sends somebody, whose powers and fighting style are so cataclysmic that a fight on top of Urithiru would level it. Odium surely has access to microkinesis.

[Elite01]

I think Odiums end game is to find a way to void the contract, either by getting Dalinar to break the contract or to end in a tie which I don't think the contract covers. I think this because either way if Dalinar wins or loses humans win because the war ends. The main con of losing is Dalinar becomes a fused but generally speaking Odium loses no matter what.

Loop holes I could see 

-Odium chooses a champion Dalinar does not want to kill, basically the child champion theory. I don't want to go on a tangent but feel like the champion has to be willing and Odium could try and corrupt someone but he failed with Dalinar and has really only gotten Moash to join his side so other characters like Renarin, adolin, Szeth or Gavinor seem unlikely to me but anything could happen

I have seen a crazy theory that a good character like Adolin or Szeth volunteer as Odiums champion with the intent to let Dalinar kill them so the humans have a guaranteed victory. 

-someone intervenes during the contest of champions. If Dalinar is about to be killed a character like Kaladin, Navani or Adolin may step in without knowing the consequences, voiding the contract and setting Odium free

 

 

[r0cketm00se]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's a contest of champions, so no. Odium can't name himself. He has to designate a champion that will fight in his name. Dalinar doesn't fight in his own name, he's representing Honor.

This makes sense. So the contest is between Honor's champion and Odium's champion, and it can't be the shards themselves. I do still wonder what would happen if Odium named a fused, or Nale, or a highspren as champion. There are plenty of potential champions in the Cosmere for whom "death" is a fuzzy concept.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 6/7/2024 at 11:37 AM, Elite01 said:

I think Odiums end game is to find a way to void the contract, either by getting Dalinar to break the contract or to end in a tie which I don't think the contract covers. I think this because either way if Dalinar wins or loses humans win because the war ends. The main con of losing is Dalinar becomes a fused but generally speaking Odium loses no matter what.

This is certainly an interesting take.

 

If he wins, Odium claims a part of Roshar, something he has not been able to do for THOUSANDS of years. On his timeline, this is definitely a win. He will be able to influence to a much greater effect and will be able to actually build a foundation, an advantage that the Radiants have needed.

 

The Fused show up with their weapons but thats about it. If he wins, they can set up shop, maybe even convert local peoples to truly be followers of Odium.

 

Dalinar has done his best, but he has been up against a shard of God. Odium has won more in these 4 books than he was ever able to before.

[+hwiles]

On 6/7/2024 at 2:13 AM, Oltux72 said:

1. The contract assumes that somebody survives. Odium may go for a suicide bomber to take the other champion with him.

...

I don't think that Odium can harm himself as part of the contest anymore. He's the rightful ruler of all of Kharbranth after all. he would have to make someone else kill him for him.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, hwiles said:

I don't think that Odium can harm himself as part of the contest anymore. He's the rightful ruler of all of Kharbranth after all. he would have to make someone else kill him for him.

Sorry, this is a misunderstanding. I am basically proposing for Odium to send a champion with a nuclear weapon and a dead-man switch strapped to his back with orders to blow himself - that is the champion - and Dalinar and most of Urithiru up.

[+hwiles]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry, this is a misunderstanding. I am basically proposing for Odium to send a champion with a nuclear weapon and a dead-man switch strapped to his back with orders to blow himself - that is the champion - and Dalinar and most of Urithiru up.

Yeah...that would probably work...fair enough.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry, this is a misunderstanding. I am basically proposing for Odium to send a champion with a nuclear weapon and a dead-man switch strapped to his back with orders to blow himself - that is the champion - and Dalinar and most of Urithiru up.

That would most definitely break the “end hostilities and keep the peace” part of the contract

[+Oltux72 he/him]

35 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

That would most definitely break the “end hostilities and keep the peace” part of the contract

During a contest itself hostilities will have to occur. That is kind of the very point. I don't see the contract saying anything about limiting collateral damage or having to stay alive during the battle. Suicide attacks are definitely allowed.

[NH2316]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

That would most definitely break the “end hostilities and keep the peace” part of the contract

During a contest itself hostilities will have to occur. That is kind of the very point. I don't see the contract saying anything about limiting collateral damage or having to stay alive during the battle. Suicide attacks are definitely allowed.

That's fair - "hostilities" are a part of a contest and necessary, and the "hostilities" to be ended which the contract refers to are ostensibly hostile actions instigated by odium and his agents after the contest.  It makes me wonder though, with the suicide attack / collateral damage idea, what if odium engineers it so that whatever collateral damage occurs as a result of their champion losing causes hostilities from a third party organically that nevertheless serves odiums ends?  The sort of thing I picture is something like odium closes their champion, that champion loses, but either because of who that champion is or collateral damage that occurs during the contest, a powerful third party (someone with nightblood, a bondsmith, a powerful spren, a world-hopper, etc.) decides of their own volition that it's necessary to do something that ultimately serves odium anyway.  The extreme example would be someone revenge-kills Cultivation with nightblood, and while narratively I admit I don't know how that works , I'm not a writer and have confidence Brandon could figure it out.  Maybe a less extreme version could be something happens in the contest that puts the potential world-ending dangers of surgebinding as a magic system on display (something hinted at through these books, and I think in some WoB) --> this freaks out the radiants themselves, Cultivation, the heralds, or the people of roshar, the people of a different world hopping planet, etc. --> the freaked out party seeks to limit surgebinders or their works in a way that as a by-product is a boon to odium (a mass revolt against the radiants, ending whatever remains of the oathpact, a second recreance which this time takes out the bondsmith spren too, a world hopper group like the ghost bloods radicalizing to target Roshar as a threat, etc.).  Again, admittedly I don't know how you get from a-->z with specifics, but I'm not a writer. Anyway, the end result is you have scenario A: Odium's champion wins, odium wins, B. odiums champion loses, but odium still gets a powerful boon out of it that is just fine by odium in the grander timescale.  Shards seem pretty strongly bound to the meaning of their oaths and not just the letter based on what Rayse says (although that assumes Rayse was right, and that Taravodium is bound to the same degree), so the maneuvering odium needs to do would have to be so subtle that the actions of the third party here are entirely their choice. However, I don't see that requirement any different from the "child champion" loophole - if Odium choosing an innocent target knowing it will cause dalinar to forfeit is OK, then I can't see how choosing a champion that results in a revenge campaign or populist uprising against the radiants would be more out of bounds.

 

Totally aside, this will not be the loophole because it's so absurd, but I find the idea below (from a 2020 Wolverine comic by Benjamin Percy) as a hilarious loophole in this kind of classic fantasy "contest of champions" / "fight to the death" plot:

[fievelgoespostal]

Who says the Contest even happens?  What if something cataclysmic happens that keeps the Contest from even occurring?

[Aredor]

57 minutes ago, fievelgoespostal said:

Who says the Contest even happens?  What if something cataclysmic happens that keeps the Contest from even occurring?

That's a really good idea! What if TOdium's plan is to destroy the top of Urithiru before the contest even starts? 

[The Stick]

I believe that using Ishar is his best hope, if Ishar can be persuaded. This is because 1. He is an unchained Bondsmith better than Dalinar, and would probably always guarantee some fragile victory, and two, may drive Szeth insane enough to interfere in the conflict and mess everything up. Really, I think most loopholes involve manipulating Szeth into breaking terms.

[Hulaine]

I saw this idea on a different thread related to TOdium 'harming' Wit by taking some of his breaths, where keeping the agreement in letter and spirit (paraphrasing but that's a key part of this) might depend on the vessel. 

Quote

I don't believe this will cause you actual harm ... Odium said. Yes, it seems my predecessor's agreements will allow me to-

What if the 'loophole' is simply that TOdium doesn't view the restrictions in the same way Rayse did, which opens up a few possibilities.

For example, for all the mentions of "you" and "I" in the final contract which still bind new Odium, TOdium could interpret them to only apply them to himself (i.e. Fused can free for all/continue fighting); there's president for that, because his stance in most of his conversations with Dalinar focus on the ruler bearing the burden, etc..

Spoiler

 

As an aside, "all their occupants" include Fused and Singers at the moment, so there might be something in that?

Either way, win or loss, TOdium sounds like he expects to be able to continue doing... something, somehow (at least if he wins and gets Dalinar): 

Spoiler

 

Also in a similar vein to TOdium destroying the platform before it could happen, I assume he can also aim to kill all the likely candidates before they're chosen as the champion so it's easier to win by fighting someone way less skilled, though it feels very unlikely. 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 6/15/2024 at 9:05 PM, The Stick said:

I believe that using Ishar is his best hope, if Ishar can be persuaded. This is because 1. He is an unchained Bondsmith better than Dalinar, and would probably always guarantee some fragile victory, and two, may drive Szeth insane enough to interfere in the conflict and mess everything up. Really, I think most loopholes involve manipulating Szeth into breaking terms.

Szeth freaking out in a climactic moment?! When has he ever ... oh in books 2, 3 & 4. Yeah, good call. Szeth is the best fighter of the radiants, he's more experienced with magic blades and killing people with them than Kaladin. He could be selected as champion probably won't be because of the reliability issue. Szeth would be interesting dramatically if TOdium appoints a child champion. He's the one character that might actually kill the child. OK, Jasnah would but she won't be chosen. 

[Use the Falchion]

I'm honestly just thinking it's about breaking the "to the death" rules and causing the other participant to forfeit. Taravangian isn't like Dalinar or even Rayse. He doesn't fight fair or honorably and is willing to lie, steal, and kill to get what he wants or thinks he needs. Thinking he's going to play the game like Rayse or Dalinar and choose a champion who can fight and win is going to be the downfall of Team Honor, because Taravangian isn't playing to win the match, he's playing to win the game, and winning for him is getting out of the duel itself. 

It reminds me of this one meme video from a few years ago. A guy has this children's toy where you put the face of 3D shapes in matching 2D holes i.e. the "cylinder goes in the circle hole while the pyramid shape goes in the triangle hole." Most people, including the girl reacting to this video, would put the appropriate shapes in the appropriate holes. This guy? He just puts all the shapes in the square hole. 

Taravangian is like that. Everyone assumes he's going to put the right shapes in the right holes, the honorable or odious champion for the fight. But he's going to use a different strategy, play a different game, because he wants a different outcome. 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 6:17 PM, r0cketm00se said:

2. Rayse-Odium promised to spare anyone born into Kharbranth, and apparently TOdium is still bound by that. If Dalinar chooses someone from Kharbranth as champion, will it be impossible for Odium to win?

That's a valid theory! ...assuming Dalinar and Team Honor were looking for loopholes to exploit.

Team Honor is led by Dalinar, a man who is reluctant to let go of power and delegate unless forced to or he's not an expert on the matter and someone he is close to is. No one else is an expert on the matter, and Dalinar most certainly isn't giving up his power to let someone else do something so important. (Which is what I think one of his final Oaths will be about.) That's what makes figuring out who Odium's Champion feels so easy, at least to me. Once you know what Odium wants (out of the contract and Roshar as a whole), who Honor's Champion is going to be (Dalinar), then all you need to do is figure out who would make Dalinar break the rules of the contract. Who has expressed hatred, deep passion, or even pain, on Dalinar's side, who Odium could easily convince with little to give away? You see where I'm going with this, right?

From there, the biggest conundrum - and the focus of discussions IMO - is how Dalinar gets out of such a situation and what that means for Roshar. 

[The Stick]

Does the coalition cannonically know about the Kharbranth pact?

[BinarySecond]

5 hours ago, The Stick said:

Does the coalition cannonically know about the Kharbranth pact?

No they don't.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, The Stick said:

Does the coalition cannonically know about the Kharbranth pact?

4 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

No they don't.

Yes and no. Taravangian said to Dalinar that he did all of this and Odium promised to spare Kharbranth, but he didn't fully explain what words were used  - that Odium won't harm anyone born in Kharbranth with their spouses etc. RoW ch 66:

Quote

“So you sold us out? You helped hasten our destruction?”
“For a price, Dalinar,” Taravangian said, staring again at the ruby that was the room’s hearth. “I did preserve Kharbranth. I tried, I promise you, to protect more. But it is as the Radiants say. Life before death. I saved the lives of as many as I could—”