AlastorBM He Posted June 9 Report Share Posted June 9 (edited) Reading about the topic and I would like to take it back. I found many interesting points on the subject. (SPOILERS) first a brief explication https://coppermind.net/wiki/Savant Quote A savant is someone who has used an Investiture-related ability so much that it has changed their physiology. The process involves one's spirit becoming infused with Investiture, causing changes in the Physical Realm. Savantism brings a person closer to the Spiritual Realm. *For example, we have seen the savantism of the powers in the interludes of Kaza without going any further, at least in terms of the soulcast. What other interesting effects would they have, for example cohesion? Theoretically, it couldn't "soften" the physical form of the user, being so invested or being the same, could it? What if it were something more violent as a division? Stormlight Spoilers! Spoiler *The fused are very invested beings and they really use their power like this all the time, do they qualify as savants? Although their physical form is adapted to the surge they have, this seems to be a natural trait, but not the extreme use of their surge. Correct me if I'm wrong. I also take into account their way of life, for example the Deepest ones have preference for subteranean homes and Heavenly One's preference for high up homes. I bring it up to contribute a little more than just the use of theyr skills. Warbreaker Spoilers! Spoiler *As for BioChromatic Breath, We know that the highest breath capacity shown to date is the Tenth Heightening which uses approximately 50,000 breaths. This matters as data but even with this amount the relevant thing is still the use, to become a svant. In this field I would like to have your opinions, its physical effects or the use that you would give to the power. It is curious, since when reanimating objects this investiture is transferred and we do not know for sure how this affects the savantism process. *Now a cognitive shadow savant? possible, we have the heralds as an example and the good Zahel. Take the heralds, theoretically and taking into account the years they spent fighting using their surges it is possible that they could be savants, perhaps honor or his blades protect them from the negative effects of their extreme use, such as the Nahel bond to the radiants. I found some questions asked to Brandon on the subject, I leave them below https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14008 Quote Questioner We know that Soulcaster savants exist and Radiants are protected by the Nahel bond but not immune to becoming one. Can all Surges cause becoming a savant? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they could. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1557 Quote Questioner So Allomantic Savants. So I was curious-- That system-- When that happens, is it purely physiological, or is there something else happening in terms of-- Brandon Sanderson Uhh, it's physiological in a cosmere sense, but that can involve your Cognitive and Spiritual aspects. Questioner I guess the question there is, are there other similar processes to savantism with other-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah you've seen it. So, Soulcasters. Argent Where their skin turns-- Brandon Sanderson Where they're slowly being-- their spirit is slowly being merged and infused with Investiture that is having Physical ramifications. It's the same thing. I hope you leave your opinions on the subject, I am really very interested in knowing your opinions on how the surges that we do not physically know would manifest themselves. Greetings, have a good day! Edited June 9 by alastorBM spoilers edit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 9 Report Share Posted June 9 52 minutes ago, alastorBM said: Warbreaker Spoilers Spoiler *As for BioChromatic Breath, We know that the highest breath capacity shown to date is the Tenth Heightening which uses approximately 50,000 breaths. This matters as data but even with this amount the relevant thing is still the use, to become a svant. In this field I would like to have your opinions, its physical effects or the use that you would give to the power. It is curious, since when reanimating objects this investiture is transferred and we do not know for sure how this affects the savantism process. This section requires a Spoiler Tag because your thread is in Stormlight Archive rather than Cosmere discussion (for any given topic, spoilers are required if referencing an outside series (from the forum summeries): Quote Stormlight Archive Discuss The Stormlight Archive and all things Roshar here. (Stormlight Archive / Roshar Only) Cosmere Discussion Post discussion for the cosmere at large, Shards, Hoid, or general Arcanum Unbounded content here. All spoilers are allowed, except for upcoming releases/new releases, which have their own forums for discussion. Use book forums if your post only relates to a single series. (All series' non-spoiler/preview material) As for that comment (Warbreaker Spoilers): Spoiler BioChromatic Breath is unlikely to cause Savantism, based on what we know so far, because it is more closely tied to the Physical and Cognitive Realm than the Spiritual - and the nature of Endowment means it is passing from one person/object to another person/object without stretching the Spiritweb (the known cause of Savantism) because it is not passing through the Spiritual Realm (with the possible exception of Divine Breath). This is also likely why Breaths provide Heightenings (also seen in Rysn at the end of Dawnshard, implied in other stories). . . 58 minutes ago, alastorBM said: Reading about the topic and I would like to take it back. I found many interesting points on the subject. first a brief explication https://coppermind.net/wiki/Savant I found some questions asked to Brandon on the subject, I leave them below https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14008 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1557 Please note, if you are looking at the Arcanum, each WoB will have a "copy" button in the top right, which will copy the contents of the WoB, with a link at the bottom showing the event and date. It is generally best to place these in spoilers to alleviate excessive scrolling. Example: Spoiler Questioner We know that Soulcaster savants exist and Radiants are protected by the Nahel bond but not immune to becoming one. Can all Surges cause becoming a savant? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they could. Questioner Can other fabrials, such as the one that takes away pain and the one that offers Regrowth, cause some sort of savanthood? Brandon Sanderson Those, I'll explain the distinction in Rhythm of War. I get deep into the fabrial science. There is a big distinction between those fabrials and Soulcasters that will become manifest. Let's say that what happens to Soulcasters is more likely to cause savanthood and the side effects. San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020) Re: Fused, they are Cognitive Shadows, so their relationship with Savantism (if any) is already abnormal and we don't have much information yet; they also have two abiltites and only one of which "consumes" Light (and may therefore contribute to Savantism). WoB: Spoiler Argent I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all. Brandon Sanderson All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them. They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are. <edited for length and relevance> JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) So, Leshwi is not "using" voidlight when flying - it's inherent to her Brand that holding Light means she can lash herself however she needs, as much as she needs. However, when she lashes others (such as Moash at the begining of OB when he kills her), then she is expending Light. If Fused could become Savants (unlikely - because of the Cognitive Shadow thing) then it would be through excessive use of this "Active" ability. Mistborn Spoilers (E1): Spoiler Note, it took Spook at least a year of Flaring Tin 18+ hours a day (all his waking time) to become a Tineye Savant. So even "daily" use of a Surge would atke a really long time to reach Savanthood. . . 1 hour ago, alastorBM said: *Now a cognitive shadow savant? possible, we have the heralds as an example and the good Zahel. Take the heralds, theoretically and taking into account the years they spent fighting using their surges it is possible that they could be savants, perhaps honor or his blades protect them from the negative effects of their extreme use, such as the Nahel bond to the radiants. I thnk the Heralds are a good example pointing to the idea that a Cognitive Shadow does not normally display the good or bad effects of becoming a Savant. As a Shadow, their body is as False as Thaidakar's; so if Savantism is a warping of the Spiritweb also warping the Physical body - then a CS that no longer has a natural "String" to reflect those changes is unlikely to experience these (good or bad) effects (note - there may be other effects we have not yet seen as Kaza implies she also had Cognitive Warping due to her Savantism - which made her feel "pulled" toward the soulcasting and may have effected her Cognitive emotional state(s) (Mistborn Spoilers): Spoiler Which we see in Mistborn is part of how Emotional Allomancy works (and therefore Hemalurgic Control) - WoB: Spoiler <Editied for length and relevance> Brandon Sanderson He'd have to get him inside a living one. It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough. Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening. Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015) Hope that helps 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlastorBM He Posted June 9 Author Report Share Posted June 9 9 minutes ago, Treamayne said: This section requires a Spoiler Tag because your thread is in Stormlight Archive rather than Cosmere discussion (for any given topic, spoilers are required if referencing an outside series (from the forum summeries): Thank you very much! It's one of my first posts and I didn't really know how to edit everything. I am correcting it. I also made a mistake, this should be in the general cosmere forum, I realized it a while ago and asked the mods for a solution. 23 minutes ago, Treamayne said: So, Leshwi is not "using" voidlight when flying - it's inherent to her Brand that holding Light means she can lash herself however she needs, as much as she needs. However, when she lashes others (such as Moash at the begining of OB when he kills her), then she is expending Light. If Fused could become Savants (unlikely - because of the Cognitive Shadow thing) then it would be through excessive use of this "Active" ability. Mistborn Spoilers (E1): I didn't remember the detail, I would certainly have to add it to the post, it is very important 28 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I thnk the Heralds are a good example pointing to the idea that a Cognitive Shadow does not normally display the good or bad effects of becoming a Savant. As a Shadow, their body is as False as Thaidakar's; so if Savantism is a warping of the Spiritweb also warping the Physical body - then a CS that no longer has a natural "String" to reflect those changes is unlikely to experience these (good or bad) effects (note - there may be other effects we have not yet seen as Kaza implies she also had Cognitive Warping due to her Savantism - which made her feel "pulled" toward the soulcasting and may have effected her Cognitive emotional state(s) Certainly, not having a physical body as such shouldn't represent real harm. What is not clear to me is why the positive part cannot be benefited, I understand the point I think, then directly by not having the string I could not pass any of the effects? if it directly affects the spirit web. Thank you very much for the contribution and advice! They help a lot and tell me anything else you want to contribute? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 9 Report Share Posted June 9 (edited) 15 hours ago, alastorBM said: Thank you very much! It's one of my first posts and I didn't really know how to edit everything. I am correcting it. I also made a mistake, this should be in the general cosmere forum, I realized it a while ago and asked the mods for a solution. Please see the Sharder FAQ in the intro section for more tips and tricks. 15 hours ago, alastorBM said: What is not clear to me is why the positive part cannot be benefited, I understand the point I think, then directly by not having the string I could not pass any of the effects? What positive part? Not all savantism is a good thing (and most are far more detrimental than positive). Look at Kaza, on the plus side she is somewhat faster at soulcasting Smoke, and can affect a somewhat larger area alone (where others might need two soulcasters working together - e.g. WoR Ch 35 - Adolin PoV) and for that "benefit" she is losing body parts that become the Smoke Essence that suffuses her Spiritweb, has trouble drinking and eating, etc. Mistborn Spoilers: Spoiler Sure, we saw many benefits when Spook started becomgin a Savant. We also saw him find a way to use the detriment for good reason (insensate enough to make it through the fire). Imagine if stings had not been pulled with Harmony and Spook had lived as a Savant instead of becoming Lord Mistborn - He wouldn't have been able to feel his wife without Tin, or taste anything he ate or drank. Maybe he would have become more paranoid since sleeping without Tin would have left him insensate. We saw the "good side" of Savantism in HoA, but that is by-far the exception, not the rule. I would expect most versions of Savantism are mild benefits for catastrophic downsides. It caused a change to the plan for all of Era 2. WoB: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. <Edited for length and relevance> Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Edited June 10 by Treamayne SPAG/Link 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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