How was AoL ever seen as standalone?

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

With Alloy of Law's epilogue leaving so many huge cliffhangers, how did Sanderson ever see it as a standalone book? Did the fandom ever believe it wouldn't have sequels? Even the prologue feels disconnected from the rest of the book, as if it were promising what would come in the rest of era 2.

Edited June 10 by EdgedancerJacob
Finished my thought

[Aetherbound he/him]

I believe the cliffhangers were setting up for era 3(which was era 2 back then). but ended up expanding into a series of it's own.

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

16 minutes ago, Aetherbound said:

I believe the cliffhangers were setting up for era 3(which was era 2 back then). but ended up expanding into a series of it's own.

That makes sense -- thanks! 

It's interesting to think of what the era 2 story could've looked like in the era 3 setting.

[+hwiles]

5 hours ago, EdgedancerJacob said:

With Alloy of Law's epilogue leaving so many huge cliffhangers, how did Sanderson ever see it as a standalone book? Did the fandom ever believe it wouldn't have sequels? Even the prologue feels disconnected from the rest of the book, as if it were promising what would come in the rest of era 2.

I like to think of it as an experiment on the fandom. Reading it when it first came out, I absolutely did not take it for granted that Wax would get a sequel. His story and access to power was totally over the top (the man crushes whole buildings on a whim and his alcoholic friend can heal instantaneously from gunshots!), the subject matter is so dark (kidnapping women for nazi breeding programs) that most the of Set's crimes are only vaguely hinted at and restricted to off-screen with few actual confrontations, and the romantic engagements are...so tropey and cliche that a couple characters had to have core personality traits rewritten post-hoc.

But...fans really loved it. It piqued their interest about what was possible with the combination of twinborn so strongly that they couldn't stop talking and speculating about them. Could Sanderson have gotten away with just diving into the next age? Definitely, no question. But slowing down and fleshing out the world and finishing those experimental arcs demonstrably paid dividends and grew the popularity and prevalence of the greater anthology by showing that it could span between distinct genres and unite people of diverse tastes.

Edited June 11 by hwiles

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

But...fans really loved it.

I would qualify this as "many current fans really loved it." I know of a few people that quit reading Sanderson altogether due to Alloy of Law - which is why I always mention in the "reading order" threads" that even if you start with Mistborn, it is generally suggested to read some other Cosmere works before starting Era 2 (and also advisable to warn friends about the Scadrial Plan WoB in advance). There is a non-negligible group of Speculative Fiction Fans that if moving from HoA to AoL without warning or context, will just be put-off by the setting changes and walk away from teh Cosmere entirely (at least, in my experience). 

Referenced WoB (one example, there are multiple on the same topic):

Spoiler

Questioner

How many of the Mistborn do you plan on writing still?

Brandon Sanderson

Mistborn, when I pitched it to my editor, I pitched it as a spectrum running from an epic fantasy series eventually arriving at a space opera, with Allomancers on spaceships. So we have several hundred more years of history. So right now I'm doing a few more Wax and Wayne books, the Alloy of Law era. Then we will jump forward, I've got a modern trilogy that's going to be like 1980's level technology. And then maybe near-future and then full-blown science fiction space opera.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

If somebody is potentially put off by "modern" elements in "epic" fantasy, and does not expect that the Mistborn series, as a whole, is meant to show how the work changes through multiple Eras, then they risk being aliented before "getting it."

[+hwiles]

21 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I would qualify this as "many current fans really loved it." I know of a few people that quit reading Sanderson altogether due to Alloy of Law - which is why I always mention in the "reading order" threads" that even if you start with Mistborn, it is generally suggested to read some other Cosmere works before starting Era 2 (and also advisable to warn friends about the Scadrial Plan WoB in advance). There is a non-negligible group of Speculative Fiction Fans that if moving from HoA to AoL without warning or context, will just be put-off by the setting changes and walk away from teh Cosmere entirely (at least, in my experience). 

Referenced WoB (one example, there are multiple on the same topic):

  Hide contents

Questioner

How many of the Mistborn do you plan on writing still?

Brandon Sanderson

Mistborn, when I pitched it to my editor, I pitched it as a spectrum running from an epic fantasy series eventually arriving at a space opera, with Allomancers on spaceships. So we have several hundred more years of history. So right now I'm doing a few more Wax and Wayne books, the Alloy of Law era. Then we will jump forward, I've got a modern trilogy that's going to be like 1980's level technology. And then maybe near-future and then full-blown science fiction space opera.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

If somebody is potentially put off by "modern" elements in "epic" fantasy, and does not expect that the Mistborn series, as a whole, is meant to show how the work changes through multiple Eras, then they risk being aliented before "getting it."

I respect your opinion, and everyone's tastes for themselves is fundamentally valid, but I have to strongly disagree. Sanderson did a great job on the transition from HoA to AoL (in my opinion), but he did not break new ground. Non-cosmere reference for the saga of recluse:

Spoiler

L.E. Modesitt explores the superposition of high fantasy, epic fantasy, the cyclic nature of mankind, the balance of order and chaos, and the marriage of deep fantasy and over the top Scifi in the saga of recluse.

They have immortal druids of the forest praying to the grand admirals of Heaven's intergalactic navy at times. It's a proven concept.

The book only got a sequel because people responded to it in real time. If they hadn't been talking about it on this website in real time, it likely would not have been endorsed because...why would it?

Edit: okay, just to clarify, I'm being super lenient on the concept of "real time." They were under zero pressure with years of leeway to discuss and millions of samples of text shared upfront. Still though.

Edited June 11 by hwiles

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I respect your opinion, and everyone's tastes for themselves is fundamentally valid, but I have to strongly disagree. Sanderson did a great job on the transition from HoA to AoL (in my opinion), but he did not break new ground. Non-cosmere reference for the saga of recluse:

  Reveal hidden contents

L.E. Modesitt explores the superposition of high fantasy, epic fantasy, the cyclic nature of mankind, the balance of order and chaos, and the marriage of deep fantasy and over the top Scifi in the saga of recluse.

They have immortal druids of the forest praying to the grand admirals of Heaven's intergalactic navy at times. It's a proven concept.

The book only got a sequel because people responded to it in real time. If they hadn't been talking about it on this website in real time, it likely would not have been endorsed because...why would it?

Not disagreeing with you - just pointing out that, in my experience, I have known a number of people who started reading Sanderson with:

• The Final Empire
• Well of Ascension
• Hero of Ages
• Alloy of Law
  • Hard stop

I was not saying that was why it turned into Era Two, just pointing out that a blanket "fans really loved it" is possible hyperbole. Many fans did love it, and other readers who were self-described fans after reading Mistborn Era 1, were turned off by the setting change (likely due to a lack of context). Some of those that I know that stopped reading Sanderson had also read Elantris and/or Warbreaker as well, some did not. Some of those actually also read Urban Fantasy (Dresden Files, Iron Druid, MHI). But of those that I know that "gave up" on Sanderson nearly all left after Alloy of Law (exceptions were actually on this forum and rather different contexts). 

Granted all of the examples I am referencing are friends and coworkes from long ago (2010-2014 time frame - before SoS and BoM were even out), when AoL was considered stand-alone.

Edited June 11 by Treamayne
SPAG

[+hwiles]

Haha. Fair enough, fair enough. There was definitely hyperbole in what i said about recluse for sure. All the fans that stuck around loved it though, and more and more independently joined who otherwise never would have and I believe that to be a self evident fact. It's sad that some people quit but...that's the nature of the beast.

[Treamayne]

57 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Haha. Fair enough, fair enough. There was definitely hyperbole in what i said about recluse for sure. All the fans that stuck around loved it though, and more and more independently joined who otherwise never would have and I believe that to be a self evident fact. It's sad that some people quit but...that's the nature of the beast.

I was nearly one of them. . . 

Spoiler

I disliked AoL the first time I read it (at this point, I had read Elantris and Era 1), but decided I liked the other books enough to try other works - and Warbreaker is free on the website. ~2011

The first re-read did not really improve my opinion much (after Warbreaker, TES, WoK, WoR),  but I was invested in the Cosmere at this point, though I was considering skipping future Mistborn books. ~2014

It wasn't until I had found the Arcanum and read many of the WoBs (including the one above, but also about Wax and Wayne behind-the-scenes, and the AoL Annotations) that I started appreciating Era 2 more - but even still AoL is rather low on my Sanderson list (if I had to rank Cosmere books by personal preference - something has to be at the bottom of that list. . . AoL is not quite last place) ~2016, when I joined this forum