Shades act differently outside Threnody because the Evil is only there

[drunkenbotanist]

I've read a lot of people theorizing what is different about the shades on Canticle, in the Admiral's 'employ', things said by Nazh, etc. 

It occurs to me that the if the Evil functions very similarly to the Father Machine in its relationship to its black goo, then it may make more sense.

Some shades (Silence's grandmother) (Liyun in Yumi) are able to retain slightly more of their identity, but the shade's are more or less under control of the Evil. Their nature and appearance is because of the damage in ripping most of their (identity?) away, like in Yumi and with Nightblood.

 

On Canticle, they are far away from the Evil and so are not controlled by it. 

 

One counterpoint to this is the shades on Canticle warning that they could destroy everyone if left to roam, but that could be their ignorance, distance not being a perfect solution, or they still are dangerous, just not controlled by the Evil/follow the simple rules.

 

This could still work even if the Evil's influence on the shades wasn't limited by distance if the glass containers serve to shield the shades from the Evil, but I think there are more issues with this scenario. 

 

A meta reason for this is also Brandon working this out from writing Yumi before Sunlit Man.

 

Also a fun twist on this could be that the Evil is just a big lumping of shades that all act together and this collective influences the other ones farther away on the other continent. If Ambition was more group oriented in some way, it makes a nice distinction in intent with Autonomy.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

It occurs to me that the if the Evil functions very similarly to the Father Machine in its relationship to its black goo, then it may make more sense.

Some shades (Silence's grandmother) (Liyun in Yumi) are able to retain slightly more of their identity, but the shade's are more or less under control of the Evil. Their nature and appearance is because of the damage in ripping most of their (identity?) away, like in Yumi and with Nightblood.

 

On Canticle, they are far away from the Evil and so are not controlled by it. 

Interesting theory. But how do you account for the Shades (and the Simple Rules) being in Hell before the Evil came to the Continent? SSFH:

Spoiler

“Dear Silence,” he said. “Forescout blood, stubborn to the last breath. They say your grandparents were the first of the first. The first people to come scout this continent, the first to homestead the Forests … the first to stake a claim on hell itself.”

“Don’t call the Forests that. This is my home.”

“But it is how men saw this land, before the Evil. Doesn’t that make you curious?

So, Expeditions left to explore the Forests and found the Shades. Sometime after that the Evil came to the Continent and the refugees that survived also went to the Forests and built the Forts. The Forests are a separate Continent than the Homeland, where the Evil dwells.

Threnody Essay:

Spoiler

The planet is home to two separate continents. The larger of the two has been abandoned to something known as “the Evil,” a force that even Nazh can speak of only in vague terms.

 

[Quantus he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory. But how do you account for the Shades (and the Simple Rules) being in Hell before the Evil came to the Continent? SSFH:

  Hide contents

“Dear Silence,” he said. “Forescout blood, stubborn to the last breath. They say your grandparents were the first of the first. The first people to come scout this continent, the first to homestead the Forests … the first to stake a claim on hell itself.”

“Don’t call the Forests that. This is my home.”

“But it is how men saw this land, before the Evil. Doesn’t that make you curious?

So, Expeditions left to explore the Forests and found the Shades. Sometime after that the Evil came to the Continent and the refugees that survived also went to the Forests and built the Forts. The Forests are a separate Continent than the Homeland, where the Evil dwells.

Threnody Essay:

  Hide contents

The planet is home to two separate continents. The larger of the two has been abandoned to something known as “the Evil,” a force that even Nazh can speak of only in vague terms.

 

Just spittballing, but it might have manifested in the Cognitive realm fist and needed to develop sufficient Connections to manifest in the Physical realm. Generally comparable to how it's implied that the Everstorm developed in Shadesmar first before being pulled through in OB.  

[drunkenbotanist]

I don't think that quote necessarily means that the shades acting the way they do predates the Evil, but I think if they did, then my idea does not make much sense. 

 

I think for this to make sense, that pre-Evil the shades left for hell after they formed, and post-Evil something changed.

The real evil of Threnody is that we don't have a full Threnody book

On 6/17/2024 at 7:19 AM, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory. But how do you account for the Shades (and the Simple Rules) being in Hell before the Evil came to the Continent? SSFH:

  Hide contents

“Dear Silence,” he said. “Forescout blood, stubborn to the last breath. They say your grandparents were the first of the first. The first people to come scout this continent, the first to homestead the Forests … the first to stake a claim on hell itself.”

“Don’t call the Forests that. This is my home.”

“But it is how men saw this land, before the Evil. Doesn’t that make you curious?

So, Expeditions left to explore the Forests and found the Shades. Sometime after that the Evil came to the Continent and the refugees that survived also went to the Forests and built the Forts. The Forests are a separate Continent than the Homeland, where the Evil dwells.

Threnody Essay:

  Hide contents

The planet is home to two separate continents. The larger of the two has been abandoned to something known as “the Evil,” a force that even Nazh can speak of only in vague terms.

 

 

[listerfeend]

On 6/17/2024 at 7:19 AM, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory. But how do you account for the Shades (and the Simple Rules) being in Hell before the Evil came to the Continent? SSFH:

Well, basing a lot of this on what I can glean from the Coppermind, it seems likely that both the Evil, and the creation of (or alteration of) the Shades coincide with the Ambition, Mercy, Odium conflict that happened in the Threnody system. If the Shades predate the conflict, then it's very likely they were altered by it, and perhaps distance or shielding would lessen that. What we don't know, and I think we kind of need answers to, is whether or not Shades on Threnody can operate in the same manner as the Shades we see on Canticle, and, if so, under what circumstances. The Ire have made a defensive perimeter around the Threnodite Subastral to "prevent the escape" of the Shades, which seems to indicate that they do not suffer the same location lock as other CS's we've seen.

I'm curious if the Canticlian Shades are more of a call back to the "OG" Shades (pre-conflict) or if they are an evolution of them. I suppose it's also possible that they are only related insomuch as they are the Cognitive Shadows of people with Threnodite heritage. Which, to me, would imply that Shades were a part of the Invested Art, or nature, or whatever, of Threnody genetics, and whatever is happening on Threnody is directly related to the Conflict. If Shades were created at the time of the Conflict, then it seems clear to me that the Evil, the Simple Rules, and the aggressive nature of the Shades are all due to that chunk of Ambition that was torn off. However, if that is the case, then the actions and behavior of the Canticle and Night Brigade Shades become a little harder to figure out for me. 

If Shades were in fact created by that conflict, then I can't explain the differences without knowing more about the "cage" they were in in TSM, or how the Night Brigade is able to control them

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

Well, Nazh implies that there is a way to became sapient Shade due to some ritual. Nazh predates Evil, so we can assume Shades were Threnodite phenomen, separate from Evil. So if thete are rituals for Shade to have his conciousnes, then should be ways to get mindless Shade before Evil - they were Humans after all. So all Shades who were in Hell before Evil, were there before "Someone" activly, or passivly, made them.