theory Hemalurgy, Bindpoints, and Spiritweb thoughts

[LightRinger he/him]

Guys. 
Everyone knows the bindpoint for Allomantic bronze is the ear,
but think about this:

If I get a bronze spike, and then my ear gets cut off, but the spike stays inside, do I retain my Seeking? Does it matter how long I’ve had the spike?

What if I’m a gold ferring (or compounder, doesn’t matter) and the part spiked is cut off, I regrow the ear (or limb, doesn’t matter) do I retain the power? 
 

- Side thought - if the ear is cut off and I hold it to my head, then tap healing, would it reseal or just regrow?

I know it’s different if the spike gets ripped out, but the question is whether or not the detached body part is connected to the Spirit Web. 
 

What do y’all think? Am I way off, or am I on to something? Any WoBs to support/destroy my ideas?

For the sake of conversation, I’m going to tag some people who I love theories and discussions between:

@Koloss17, @Trusk'our, @alder24 

Edited June 21 by LightRinger

[Trusk'our he/him]

26 minutes ago, LightRinger said:

Guys. 
Everyone knows the bindpoint for Allomantic bronze is the ear,
but think about this:

If I get a bronze spike, and then my ear gets cut off, but the spike stays inside, do I retain my Seeking? Does it matter how long I’ve had the spike?

What if I’m a gold ferring (or compounder, doesn’t matter) and the part spiked is cut off, I regrow the ear (or limb, doesn’t matter) do I retain the power? 
 

- Side thought - if the ear is cut off and I hold it to my head, then tap healing, would it reseal or just regrow?

I know it’s different if the spike gets ripped out, but the question is whether or not the detached body part is connected to the Spirit Web. 
 

What do y’all think? Am I way off, or am I on to something? Any WoBs to support/destroy my ideas?

For the sake of conversation, I’m going to tag some people who I love theories and discussions of:

@Koloss17, @Trusk'our, @alder24 

So, do you mean to ask if your ear is cut off with the spike still inside the severed ear, do you retain the power as long as it's in the severed ear?

No, as cool as that would be, severed body parts don't continue to function as a part of "you", so a Hemalurgic spike embedded inside it would be like having a Metalmind on your wrist and it getting chopped off.

Edit: although, if you really wanted to see something like this work, Cosmere rules may allow you to utilize Connection after some fashion to have the severed ear remain a part of "you" over distance even after being cut off, thus letting the spike still power your spiritual aspect, though that likely requires a whole set of hoops to jump through that we can only vaguely speculate on.

Edited June 21 by Trusk'our

[Koloss17 She/They]

So here’s the biggest wrinkle. Hemalurgy works at the spiritual level. And given that through the very nature of healing in the Cosmere, it seems clear that a difference in the physical realm does not necessarily correlate with a difference in a different realm.

Cognitive identity might have something to do with this, but obviously that complicates things even further. If the person still sees that limb as part of them, then…maybe. But it’s getting into weird territory, and would obviously have to not heal (as healing in the Cosmere is about having the physical self match the cognitive and spiritual self).

Inevitably, I think this question requires a deeper understanding of Hemalurgy. Maybe there’s a WoB on it (@alder24 summoning noises), but I don’t think we know exactly how the hemalurgic spiking of someone results in both a change of the physical and spiritual realms. If we knew that, this question would probably be a lot easier.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

So here’s the biggest wrinkle. Hemalurgy works at the spiritual level. And given that through the very nature of healing in the Cosmere, it seems clear that a difference in the physical realm does not necessarily correlate with a difference in a different realm.

True, but Hemalurgy requires a Physical Realm medium to function, just as Feruchemy and even Allomancy require. Without metal to physically interact with, there's no way the Spiritweb can be interacted with.

This is why I think disembodied Hemalurgy is so unlikely, since it clashes with one of the more fundamental requirements for the magic's use. 

Of course, if you could find a way to bypass physical separation of a body part, I think it would require something like how hive minds can form, though even then it would prove difficult due to a potential change of Connection.

Stormlight Archive spoilers: 

Spoiler

For example, if a Sleepless had one of its Hoardlings spiked, they would likely just disConnect from the rest due to their muddied Connection, which makes non-attached Hemalurgy more difficult to achieve. 

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3319

Questioner

Could you spike a hordeling?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Spike means getting something out, spike means get(ting?) something in? I think that both is viable. I think you can, yeah.

Questioner

If you would spike something in, would the whole Aimian get maybe an Allomantic ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Mostly, this would probably change the hordeling. And they may lose contact to it. It could fiddle with the Connection to the point that they can no longer link. That's gonna be my answer right now, that spiking a hordeling would separate it from the group mind.

 

 

[alder24]

I've been summoned! WoBs incoming.

 

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

Guys. 
Everyone knows the bindpoint for Allomantic bronze is the ear,
but think about this:

If I get a bronze spike, and then my ear gets cut off, but the spike stays inside, do I retain my Seeking? Does it matter how long I’ve had the spike?

No, because the ear is no longer part of your body, it's separated, so it doesn't matter that the spike is still in it, it's not connected to your body anymore. 

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

What if I’m a gold ferring (or compounder, doesn’t matter) and the part spiked is cut off, I regrow the ear (or limb, doesn’t matter) do I retain the power? 

If you regrow the entire cut off limb, then there is no spike there, so you don't have any powers from it.

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

- Side thought - if the ear is cut off and I hold it to my head, then tap healing, would it reseal or just regrow?

Then I believe it would reseal the wound, reconnecting your ear to your body, thus giving you back your powers from spikes in it. But if you don't hold your ear next to you, you would just regrow it entirely, if you have enough healing (which shouldn't take that much, considering wounds Wayne was able to heal).

10 hours ago, LightRinger said:

I know it’s different if the spike gets ripped out, but the question is whether or not the detached body part is connected to the Spirit Web. 

No, the larger part of your spirit web is what remains you. Cutting off your ear disconnects it from your spirit web (but it's not a spiritual cut, your spirit web isn't cut, it's still whole). Moreover, Hemalurgy (and all Metallic Arts) works through the Physical Realm, so you have to have metals close to your body (though a touch), thus close to your soul. Cutting off your ear cuts it off from your body, thus from your soul (as your entire soul stays with the larger portion of your body), which in turn takes away powers, which spikes in the ear were giving you. A physical cut servers that ear from your soul, so there is no soul that a spike in that ear is piercing anymore - that's why Inquisitors die when their heads are cut off (one of the reasons), as spikes are getting disconnected from their spirit webs. WoBs you've all been waiting for, on which I based this opinion:

Spoiler

Soronir

About Miles from Alloy of Law and his regenerative powers. If he was bisected down the middle and the halves were separated immediately before the healing process could begin, would the two halves each regrow into a whole Miles?

Nepene

I heard this sort of situation arose with Hoid in Dragonsteel. He had his head cut off.

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. In all of the Cosmere's Shard-based magics, the greater portion of a bisected body regrows the lesser portion. If it were done EXACTLY halfway, the soul wold jump to one or the other randomly and that would regrow.

Amusingly, this first came up in 1999, six years before I got published. (I see someone else already mentioned the situation where I had to consider it.)

General Reddit 2013 (Feb. 20, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen to a Kandra if you bisected down the middle with half of its blessing ending up on either half?

Brandon Sanderson

That would, like ripping off any other piece of it, it would be very disturbing for the Kandra but they could reabsorb and come back together. They would not be able to function half and half. That would eventually kill them. Basically, they cant like send pieces and do things. They can be ripped apart and heal, but if you ripped them in half that would be killing them.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

By contrast, a Shardblade deals spiritual wounds - a limb cut off by it has its souls severed in the middle, even though this limb is still connected to the body its soul is disconnected. A physical wound severs body parts, while leaving the soul intact with the larger piece of a body. Thus a Shardblade cutting off an ear that has spikes/metalminds in it, would make you unable to gain powers and attributes from them, even though the body isn't cut, while an ear being cut off by a normal sword would sever your body from your soul, preventing you from using metals in that ear. 

Spoiler

NeedsToShutUp

If a Shardblade were to cut a Feruchemist's limb and turn it grey, could the Feruchemist still tap a metalmind below the cut?

Brandon Sanderson

What a great question, I've never thought that. I'm going to say they could not. That's a really good question. We'll see if I go back on that, if it ever happens in the series.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

4 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Cognitive identity might have something to do with this, but obviously that complicates things even further. If the person still sees that limb as part of them, then…maybe. But it’s getting into weird territory, and would obviously have to not heal (as healing in the Cosmere is about having the physical self match the cognitive and spiritual self).

Perception doesn't matter here, because it can't force your soul to remain with your separated ear. The ear simply stops being a part of you and perception can only decide whether or not you regrow it with healing, not if it’s still with your soul. The soul remains intact with the larger portion of you - physical wounds don't cut the soul in half.

[LightRinger he/him]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:45 AM, alder24 said:

No, because the ear is no longer part of your body, it's separated, so it doesn't matter that the spike is still in it, it's not connected to your body anymore. 

On 6/20/2024 at 5:15 PM, LightRinger said:

Can a separated ear be part of the body still? What if I tap something like Aluminum? Would it work then?

 

Aside from that, these are all good points and that makes sense. 

Edited Thursday at 02:11 AM by LightRinger

[alder24]

9 hours ago, LightRinger said:

Can a separated ear be part of the body still? What if I tap something like Aluminum? Would it work then?

No, aluminum just blanks your identity. The problem is that your spirit web remains in your body, not in the cut off ear. Physical injuries don't cut your spirit, and your spirit will always stay in the larger part of your body. 

[The Stick]

So as a natural continuation of that Miles WoB I knew you would find, wouldn't it be more likely to have the souls jump to one half of a bifurcated body if that side was spiked. I am thinking that because spikes are kind of SD cards of souls shoved into a body, this would make the souls be tricked into going to this half.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, The Stick said:

So as a natural continuation of that Miles WoB I knew you would find, wouldn't it be more likely to have the souls jump to one half of a bifurcated body if that side was spiked. I am thinking that because spikes are kind of SD cards of souls shoved into a body, this would make the souls be tricked into going to this half.

It may be, but for a little bit different reason. Spikes might anchor a soul to the body more firmly (I'm thinking of Kelsier now), so if you got cut perfectly in half, your soul might be more anchored to the side with a spike in it, rather than without.

Spikes aren't sd cards, they are different investiture, different identity hotwired into your soul. It's this wiring that might hold it firmly to that part of the body. So instead of a spike attracting a soul after the body is cut, the spike would prevent it from leaving that part of the body - no jumping between halves.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

It may be, but for a little bit different reason. Spikes might anchor a soul to the body more firmly (I'm thinking of Kelsier now), so if you got cut perfectly in half, your soul might be more anchored to the side with a spike in it, rather than without.

Spikes aren't sd cards, they are different investiture, different identity hotwired into your soul. It's this wiring that might hold it firmly to that part of the body. So instead of a spike attracting a soul after the body is cut, the spike would prevent it from leaving that part of the body - no jumping between halves.

Hmm, interesting. I think that this fits into a theory I'm currently working on. 

I'll have to find a way to utilize that.