Infinite regress of spikes

[RefusesToElaborate]

Hypothetically...

I die.

Oh no! Anyway, let's say before I die I'm a Tineye and the reason I died is someone drives a spike through me and into you. Well, now you're a tineye. And in addition to my stolen tin, you were born a seeker.

Could the maniac that just murdered me then drive a second spike through you and into a third victim and for the price of one spike, steal my tineye abilities and your seeker abilities?

Or am I missing something fundamental about Hemalurgy?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

49 minutes ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Hypothetically...

I die.

Oh no! Anyway, let's say before I die I'm a Tineye and the reason I died is someone drives a spike through me and into you. Well, now you're a tineye. And in addition to my stolen tin, you were born a seeker.

Could the maniac that just murdered me then drive a second spike through you and into a third victim and for the price of one spike, steal my tineye abilities and your seeker abilities?

Or am I missing something fundamental about Hemalurgy?

A few things.

Firstly, you can't steal both A-Tin and A-Bronze with the same spike. You'd need a Steel spike for a Tineye and a Bronze spike for a Seeker.

Next thing, let's say instead the third person is a Pewterarm instead of a Seeker, then it gets a little weird but I think it's safe to say no you can't steal two powers with one spike.

Spikes grant powers so long as they are in the correct Bindpont, the points on the body that allow Hemalurgy to take or give attributes, A-Pewter and A-Tin have different Bindpoints so best case, you'd need to remove the double power spike and place it into the correct Bindpoint for either Pewter or Tin but not both, worst case scenario the conflicting Investitures mess up your ability to place the Spike correctly and you've wasted both powers, since now instead of a single spiritual puzzle piece that could be attached to your soul, it's now been glued with a different piece and can't be placed properly anymore.

So you're much better off using 1 Spike per power.

[Dragonheir he/him]

4 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Or am I missing something fundamental about Hemalurgy?

As stated above, hemalurgy can only steal one ability per spike. That being said, it may be possible to pack more than one person’s worth of power into a spike. 
Example: 

Joe is a seeker. Bill is also a seeker. Bob is too. 
Bill, who wants stronger seeking, kills Joe with a spike, giving him + .75 ish seeking strength. 
Bob, who also wants more seeking power, kills Bill with a spike, which then may grant +1.5 more seeking strength. 
The spike from killing Joe probably loses its power if this is done (otherwise you can manufacture infinite spikes with just one allomancer). 
 

A similar thing can probably be accomplished with koloss spikes, with the growing effect providing extra power. 
 

@people who know more about hemalurgy than me: is this possible? 

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Hypothetically...

I die.

Oh no! Anyway, let's say before I die I'm a Tineye and the reason I died is someone drives a spike through me and into you. Well, now you're a tineye. And in addition to my stolen tin, you were born a seeker.

Could the maniac that just murdered me then drive a second spike through you and into a third victim and for the price of one spike, steal my tineye abilities and your seeker abilities?

Or am I missing something fundamental about Hemalurgy?

As @JustQuestin2004 said, Bindpoints matter a lot for this; even if you can bypass Identity contamination (a primary culprit of multiple donors for a single spike not working) you have to have powers that fit within the same Hemalurgic quadrant.

For example, you could probably fit A-pewter, tin, iron, and steel each into a single steel spike because they belong to the same Hemalurgic quadrant, but the Identity of each power would have to be the same (such as if they were all harvested from a single Mistborn) or the Identity would have to be stripped away altogether (such as by Blanking via F-aluminum).

This is also assuming that each power from a quadrant can be used interchangeably; it doesn't matter if a steel spike has A-pewter and A-steel in it if the only Bindpoint you can use for steel Allomancy is the eye and the ribs for pewter. You'd have to choose one or the other.

Personally, I think interchangeable Bindpoints are possible, but we'd need real concrete evidence before we could say for certain. 

1 hour ago, Dragonheir said:

@people who know more about hemalurgy than me: is this possible? 

This would be a lot easier than trying for multiple types of powers in a single spike. There's no hypothetical Bindpoint convergence necessary, just Identity contamination to contend with.

Basically, if you can use F-gold on an Allomancer (or Feruchemist, I suppose) to regrow and re-spike their power multiple times, or perhaps if you grant aluminum Feruchemy to multiple Allomancers of the same type so that they can Blank their Identity while being spiked, you should relatively easily be able to supercharge a power granted by a Hemalurgic spike. 

As for attributes, like Koloss spikes, I see no reason they wouldn't work for being supercharged just like power spikes if you can bypass Identity contamination. 

[alder24]

22 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Hypothetically...

I die.

Oh no! Anyway, let's say before I die I'm a Tineye and the reason I died is someone drives a spike through me and into you. Well, now you're a tineye. And in addition to my stolen tin, you were born a seeker.

Could the maniac that just murdered me then drive a second spike through you and into a third victim and for the price of one spike, steal my tineye abilities and your seeker abilities?

Or am I missing something fundamental about Hemalurgy?

So, person A is a Tineye, person B is a Seeker, B steals A-tin from A killing them, then person C wants to steal all powers person B have with a spike? Then C can only steal A-bronze from B, as that's their natural ability. For C to take A-tin from B, they would have to just remove B's spike and spike themselves with it.

Every ability stolen with a spike remains in it (it invests the spike), even if implanted into a Hemalurgist. It's not directly a part of a Hemalurgist's soul, it's "hot-wired" into their soul, but the stolen piece of a soul remains all the time in a spike. You can't steal it by driving another spike through a person - you need to remove a spike and place it in your own body. 

Plus, as it's currently understood by Scadrians, you can't steal several powers with a single spike. One spike can steal only one power - in the future it might change as Brandon hinted it might be possible to steal multiple powers with a single spike.

Spoiler

Aerlion

Is it possible to use Hemalurgic spikes to steal multiple attributes from the same person?

Brandon Sanderson

No. At least, this isn't thought to be possible

General Signed Books 2018 (March 20, 2018)

Technically speaking, there is a way to steal powers granted by a spike, said by Brandon in a WoB below - either he was talking about just removing spikes, or using a second spike to steal the power granted by the first spike, we don't know, but even if the latter was possible, it's probably a overly complicated way, which is hard to do, and not practical at all. Anyway it won't be as simple as taking another spike and driving it through a Hemalurgist's heart, like it's normally done.

Spoiler

Questioner

Can hemalurgy be used to steal hemalurgically granted powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically.

General Signed Books 2017 (May 31, 2017)

 

 

18 hours ago, Dragonheir said:

That being said, it may be possible to pack more than one person’s worth of power into a spike. 
Example: 

Joe is a seeker. Bill is also a seeker. Bob is too. 
Bill, who wants stronger seeking, kills Joe with a spike, giving him + .75 ish seeking strength. 
Bob, who also wants more seeking power, kills Bill with a spike, which then may grant +1.5 more seeking strength. 
The spike from killing Joe probably loses its power if this is done (otherwise you can manufacture infinite spikes with just one allomancer). 

Not like that. Identity messes everything up. You can't reuse spikes like that. Maybe if you blank everyone's Identity it would be somewhat achievable.

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

What you might be able to do is, get a bunch of people who all have the same attribute, which you want to steal. First, spike one person's power into another, then spike that person's now hemalurgically enhanced power into someone else. Repeat until you've stolen all their powers, cramming them into one spike, and give it to yourself. According to Alder's second WOB, it would work, although that "technically" indicates that it might be more complicated than this. I wonder if this would be away to have more power without the consequences that attend having many spikes?

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

What you might be able to do is, get a bunch of people who all have the same attribute, which you want to steal. First, spike one person's power into another, then spike that person's now hemalurgically enhanced power into someone else. Repeat until you've stolen all their powers, cramming them into one spike, and give it to yourself. According to Alder's second WOB, it would work, although that "technically" indicates that it might be more complicated than this. I wonder if this would be away to have more power without the consequences that attend having many spikes?

If I understand it correctly, yes, you should be able to rip off the Spiritweb fragments of a spike with another Hemalurgic spike. This does mean you could use this as a way to charge a single spike with a greater quantity of Investiture. 

However, the fragments from the spike and the Hemalurgist's natural Spiritweb will have differing Identities, which will likely cause them to not function in a single spike. 

Now, I do sort of wonder whether this applies to Kandra Blessings, as they seem to be uniquely keyed to a Kandra (such as when ReLuur needed both his spikes before being stable enough to accept another in BoM). As such, perhaps you could steal the Spiritweb fragments in a Kandra's Blessings with a single spike and get a greater Blessing to bestow on another Mistwraith or Kandra.

Also, just wanted to say, it's great to have another new Sharder to post ideas! Welcome!

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

If I understand it correctly, yes, you should be able to rip off the Spiritweb fragments of a spike with another Hemalurgic spike. This does mean you could use this as a way to charge a single spike with a greater quantity of Investiture. 

However, the fragments from the spike and the Hemalurgist's natural Spiritweb will have differing Identities, which will likely cause them to not function in a single spike. 

Now, I do sort of wonder whether this applies to Kandra Blessings, as they seem to be uniquely keyed to a Kandra (such as when ReLuur needed both his spikes before being stable enough to accept another in BoM). As such, perhaps you could steal the Spiritweb fragments in a Kandra's Blessings with a single spike and get a greater Blessing to bestow on another Mistwraith or Kandra.

Also, just wanted to say, it's great to have another new Sharder to post ideas! Welcome!

Thank you! Glad to be here!

Okay, yeah, you might have to have everyone (or all but one) divest themselves of identity, which would require them to do it willingly.

For Kandra, I assumed that the spikes became keyed to them simply because they use it for so long and rely on it for their sentience. It seems like their sentience is almost stored in the spikes, because being without the spikes for a time causes memories to decay.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Okay, yeah, you might have to have everyone (or all but one) divest themselves of identity, which would require them to do it willingly.

Technically, you could implant each "donor" with four or more spikes, then use duralumin augmented Emotional Allomancy to control and force them to use a F-aluminum spike to Blank Identity. 

Or, possibly an easier (though even more morally reprehensible) method may be to practice stripping Identity away with a duralumin spike, preserving desired attributes to be spiked next, but with no Identity remaining. 

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

For Kandra, I assumed that the spikes became keyed to them simply because they use it for so long and rely on it for their sentience. It seems like their sentience is almost stored in the spikes, because being without the spikes for a time causes memories to decay.

Kandra Blessings are weird. 

It doesn't seem like the Lord Ruler made each Blessing for a specific Kandra, as he handed them over to the older generations of Kandra to bestow full sapience on Mistwraiths of their choice. 

However, since we know each Blessing is uniquely keyed to a specific Kandra, that implies that the spikes' Identities either adapted to fit a Kandra after binding to them, or that the Kandra's Identities shifted to fit the spikes.

This is how I see it currently, anyway.

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

8 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Technically, you could implant each "donor" with four or more spikes, then use duralumin augmented Emotional Allomancy to control and force them to use a F-aluminum spike to Blank Identity. 

Or, possibly an easier (though even more morally reprehensible) method may be to practice stripping Identity away with a duralumin spike, preserving desired attributes to be spiked next, but with no Identity remaining. 

Kandra Blessings are weird. 

It doesn't seem like the Lord Ruler made each Blessing for a specific Kandra, as he handed them over to the older generations of Kandra to bestow full sapience on Mistwraiths of their choice. 

However, since we know each Blessing is uniquely keyed to a specific Kandra, that implies that the spikes' Identities either adapted to fit a Kandra after binding to them, or that the Kandra's Identities shifted to fit the spikes.

This is how I see it currently, anyway.

That first method seems highly inefficient since you have to spike four people for everyone one person you steal from, and you also have to either be mistborn or spike yourself. Sounds like it would work though.

I forgot you could steal identity with a spike. The problem is that leaves them dead, and impossible to spike for something else. You can spike someone without killing them, but it's difficult. This would probably be the most effective way to do it. But, yeah, also completely evil.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

That first method seems highly inefficient since you have to spike four people for everyone one person you steal from, and you also have to either be mistborn or spike yourself. Sounds like it would work though.

It depends on if it's the number of Bindpoints hit by Hemalurgic spikes that open you up to outside influence, but if it is you could take a single F-aluminum spike and split it into four or more pieces, then spike them with that.

It gives them the necessary power to Blank their Identity and cracks open the Spiritweb. 

As for powers on yourself, yeah, it's pretty much required, though having the powers themselves is pretty nice.

2 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I forgot you could steal identity with a spike. The problem is that leaves them dead, and impossible to spike for something else. You can spike someone without killing them, but it's difficult. This would probably be the most effective way to do it. But, yeah, also completely evil.

TLM and SA spoilers:

Spoiler

It is possible to non-lethally spike something out of a person. 

With Identity, it seems that it would severely damage the mind, possibly making them immediately cave into the commands of whoever is around, just as what happens to the Parshmen.

Completely and utterly evil on multiple levels, but technically seems doable, and actually relatively easy. Which is actually kind of scary. 

 

Edited July 3 by Trusk'our

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

It depends on if it's the number of Bindpoints hit by Hemalurgic spikes that open you up to outside influence, but if it is you could take a single F-aluminum spike and split it into four or more pieces, then spike them with that.

It gives them the necessary power to Blank their Identity and cracks open the Spiritweb. 

As for powers on yourself, yeah, it's pretty much required, though having the powers themselves is pretty nice.

TLM and SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

It is possible to non-lethally spike something out of a person. 

With Identity, it seems that it would severely damage the mind, possibly making them immediately cave into the commands of whoever is around, just as what happens to the Parchment.

Completely and utterly evil on multiple levels, but technically seems doable, and actually relatively easy. Which is actually kind of scary. 

 

So, if you did this and managed to cram the power of let's just say 4 Coinshots into one spike, does it have the same effect on you as having four separate spikes would? Is this a way to get a greater amount of power without opening yourself up to outside control? Or is it just the raw amount of power that matters?

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

So, if you did this and managed to cram the power of let's just say 4 Coinshots into one spike, does it have the same effect on you as having four separate spikes would? Is this a way to get a greater amount of power without opening yourself up to outside control? Or is it just the raw amount of power that matters?

I really do think it's the number of spikes that counts, not the Investiture inside for determining the strength of the Flaw in a Hemalurgist.

Bleeder was just as vulnerable to being controlled when her second spike was a minimally charged Pathian earring-bullet, which helps push this idea.

However, this isn't strictly confirmed yet, so I want to be careful so as to not spread false information. 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I really do think it's the number of spikes that counts, not the Investiture inside for determining the strength of the Flaw in a Hemalurgist.

Bleeder was just as vulnerable to being controlled when her second spike was a minimally charged Pathian earring-bullet, which helps push this idea.

However, this isn't strictly confirmed yet, so I want to be careful so as to not spread false information. 

True, that does seem fairly plausible.

What about iron spikes though? The spikes that steal general human attributes are supposed to warp you even more, which is why the Koloss are monsters. If we use an iron spike to steal a Koloss’ strength (assuming its spikes are Identity free) and give it to a normal person, do you think they would be twisted just as much or only as much as a one spike person? From my memory, HoA seemed to suggest that it would be the Investiture that’s the problem and not the number of spikes.

[Trusk'our he/him]

47 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

What about iron spikes though? The spikes that steal general human attributes are supposed to warp you even more, which is why the Koloss are monsters. If we use an iron spike to steal a Koloss’ strength (assuming its spikes are Identity free) and give it to a normal person, do you think they would be twisted just as much or only as much as a one spike person? From my memory, HoA seemed to suggest that it would be the Investiture that’s the problem and not the number of spikes.

There's some wiggle room as to how it would go, I think.

Currently, my thought process for how attribute spikes warp you is that since human attributes are tied to your Spiritweb's "structure" in terms of anatomy, you pull off some spiritual DNA of sorts with the attribute. 

This code is a pattern, just like with physical DNA, and the Bindpoint you place the code in determines how that code is integrated into your own and how is expresses itself, causing a change to cascade down to the Physical and Cognitive Realms. 

The attribute itself, the bulk of the Investiture, I don't think does this. Kandra Blessings are made from attribute spikes, but they don't require a physical warping in a Kandra to receive their magical benefits (such as the Blessing of Potency's pewter-like effects).

It also is worth noting that Sazed's commentary on Koloss in WoA and HoA makes them seem to have a magical boost like the Blessing of Potency in addition to their growing muscles, which also supports the idea of attribute spikes' magical power being separate from its sDNA.

If this holds true, I would think that you could deliberately craft a Hemalurgic spike that warped an individual more than it would normally be expected to (such as when Tensoon was surprised at how much Paalm was able to warp the Chimera with only one spike), but you would need to improve your Intent when charging it, changing what pieces of the Spiritweb and how much are harvested.

However, just charging an iron spike with five people's strength doesn't immediately exaggerate the physical warping of each, I would think; if you have five sentences in a book that say exactly the same thing back to back, it holds the same amount of information as it would with only one of them, which ultimately changes nothing. 

This, of course, is only theoretical as of right now and is therefore a guess on my part.

Edited July 3 by Trusk'our

[Duxredux he/him]

It looks to me that the two core ideas for this are: creating a spike capable of granting multiple Invested abilities, and stacking the same ability within the same spike. I'll address both. I'm not sure how the first works, and I think we have better options for the second.

I'm still iffy about storing multiple usable abilities in a single spike with current understanding, even if all the abilities are within the same Hemalurgic quadrant. Unless someone has a viable explanation for why Atium can't steal multiple powers, why any single spike can't steal multiple powers from a Mistborn, and an explanation for how your methodology diverges significantly from the scenario of trying to steal multiple powers from a Mistborn, I don't see how this would work with current understanding. Ruin at least made a point to subvert Mistborn since it was very lossy to only be able to steal a single power from their whole skill set (https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Hero_of_Ages/Epigraphs#Chapter_72).  I don't think Identity contamination is the issue. Basically, I'm not convinced if multiple powers in a single spike is plausible until we nail down why Ruin could only steal a single power from a Mistborn with Hemalurgy even with access to Atium spikes that can steal any power. 

Quote

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

Next, I'll talk about the more complicated Hemalurgic methods suggested to amplify a single power as a separate topic from multiple powers in a single spike. if you have access to this much... Hemalurgic material along with methods to blank Identity, then you might as well start looking at A-Duralumin to enhance Allomancy and Compounding to enhance Feruchemy. If the end recipient already has one of the necessary powers, then you can still get away with only a single spike. We also know that Scadrians are already working on the drawbacks to A-Duralumin with the Set method of a mixed solution in a flask for Dumad, and 17th Sharders have had at least 3 or 4 other ideas as well. Metalborn are a limited resource, and the less Hemalurgic spiking necessary to get the desired result the more power you'll have overall due to the Law of Hemalurgic decay. Now granted, this is if you have access to the proper powers to harvest. If you have way more Coinshots than Duralumin Gnats, then... organizations like the Set would probably make do with what they have.

If this is a mental exercise to boost the efficiency of a single Hemalurgic spike, then sure, we can try to figure it out. If it's just to get more power to the Hemalurgist, I think better options are already available. If the Identify blanking works, 2 spikes max to get Duralumin enhanced Allomancy or Compounding is formidable and efficient.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I'm still iffy about storing multiple usable abilities in a single spike with current understanding, even if all the abilities are within the same Hemalurgic quadrant. Unless someone has a viable explanation for why Atium can't steal multiple powers, why any single spike can't steal multiple powers from a Mistborn, and an explanation for how your methodology diverges significantly from the scenario of trying to steal multiple powers from a Mistborn, I don't see how this would work with current understanding.

I would say because it's likely that to steal different powers from a donor you must touch different Bindpoints with the spike, and since Inquisitors didn't know (or care) about a non-lethal method of Spiritweb theft, so by killing a Mistborn to get one of their powers they never got a chance to spike another of their Bindpoints. 

That's one way to interpret this WoB anyway, though admittedly the way it's worded makes me feel there's some wiggle room.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12283

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Next, I'll talk about the more complicated Hemalurgic methods suggested to amplify a single power as a separate topic from multiple powers in a single spike. if you have access to this much... Hemalurgic material along with methods to blank Identity, then you might as well start looking at A-Duralumin to enhance Allomancy and Compounding to enhance Feruchemy. If the end recipient already has one of the necessary powers, then you can still get away with only a single spike. We also know that Scadrians are already working on the drawbacks to A-Duralumin with the Set method of a mixed solution in a flask for Dumad, and 17th Sharders have had at least 3 or 4 other ideas as well. Metalborn are a limited resource, and the less Hemalurgic spiking necessary to get the desired result the more power you'll have overall due to the Law of Hemalurgic decay. Now granted, this is if you have access to the proper powers to harvest. If you have way more Coinshots than Duralumin Gnats, then... organizations like the Set would probably make do with what they have.

If this is a mental exercise to boost the efficiency of a single Hemalurgic spike, then sure, we can try to figure it out. If it's just to get more power to the Hemalurgist, I think better options are already available. If the Identify blanking works, 2 spikes max to get Duralumin enhanced Allomancy or Compounding is formidable and efficient.

I can think of around 6 tactics in which someone might try to make A-duralumin non-instantaneous; making the metals flared with duralumin unable to be burned all at once (rapidly piercing yourself with metals to burn or having a multi-layered ball of metals), deliberately weakening your duralumin Allomancy (letting a duralumin Allomancy spike partially decay or storing power in a Nicrosilmind), becoming a duralumin Savant, or just tapping a Nicrosilmind for extra power. 

These are all pretty cool, but even if all of these methods could be viable to boost your Allomancy they all have costs, such as burning through your metals rapidly, requiring clunky physical devices, demanding Spiritweb strain from Savantism or multiple Hemalurgic spikes, needing time to store, etc.

If you could manage to charge a single Hemalurgic spike with more power than average, you can get a steady stream of notably more powerful Allomancy for no added cost. Metals don't burn more quickly, you don't need more than one spike, no extra machinery, nothing. Just free, continuous power that doesn't leave you vulnerable after a single momentary burst.

But still, I see your point; if we're worried about total power in terms of expense (especially for an organization rather than a single entity), spiking 10 Allomancers' powers into a single spike so one person can play demigod is probably less useful than giving 10 different people standard levels of power.

Edited July 4 by Trusk'our

[Duxredux he/him]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I would say because it's likely that to steal different powers from a donor you must touch different Bindpoints with the spike, and since Inquisitors didn't know (or care) about a non-lethal method of Spiritweb theft, so by killing a Mistborn to get one of their powers they never got a chance to spike another of their Bindpoints. 

That's one way to interpret this WoB anyway, though admittedly the way it's worded makes me feel there's some wiggle room.

I could see that... except it would feel like a really lame and obvious answer. The Inquisitors tried to draw more power to themselves over the course of hundreds of years of laboratory experiments and political maneuvering while Ruin augmented those same Inquisitors in HoA. If they always could just use 2-3 spikes instead of 1 to double or  more the powers harvested from a Mistborn or Feruchemist, that feels like a huge oversight. We can't blame advancements in technology either, as the metals themselves haven't changed, blacksmithing that can make needles for sewing and swords can make the proper size spike for anything you had in mind, and they had the drugs to leave someone comatose while they lined up the donor and recipient. What they didn't have was Nicrosil, Chromium, Bendalloy, and Cadmium, which steal in order: Investiture, possibly destiny, temporal Allomantic powers, and Spiritual Feruchemical powers. Still plenty to work with. If stealing multiple powers from a single Mistborn is possible, then I want it to require something more. An ability inaccessible to Ruin or the Inquisitors, some step that would take the recipient out of Ruin's control, something. If the answer is legitimately "line up multiple spikes by punching them into a sheet of cardboard and use a flat plank on top to hammer them all in at the same time" I'd feel let down.

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If you could manage to charge a single Hemalurgic spike with more power than average, you can get a steady stream of notably more powerful Allomancy for no added cost. Metals don't burn more quickly, you don't need more than one spike, no extra machinery, nothing. Just free, continuous power that doesn't leave you vulnerable after a single momentary burst.

No added cost? Free?? Just your conscience, dignity, self-respect, additional soap to wash the blood off your hands, possible therapy and counseling, and the time spent either in eugenics projects or capturing half a dozen Allomancers. I don't see any of the efforts to socialize Hemalurgy or find volunteer terminally ill donors letting you through the line 10 times, which probably means this is done illegally and against the donors' wills. Even if you only look at the cost of getting the Hemalurgic donors, the setup costs are significant and non-trivial, but yes, once you have your single spike, assuming it doesn't max out along the way, you will have an abnormally powerful burn and flare.

No, I don't think capturing 10 Coinshots alive before you put a single spike in yourself to be easy or low cost.

[Trusk'our he/him]

14 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I could see that... except it would feel like a really lame and obvious answer. The Inquisitors tried to draw more power to themselves over the course of hundreds of years of laboratory experiments and political maneuvering while Ruin augmented those same Inquisitors in HoA. If they always could just use 2-3 spikes instead of 1 to double or  more the powers harvested from a Mistborn or Feruchemist, that feels like a huge oversight. We can't blame advancements in technology either, as the metals themselves haven't changed, blacksmithing that can make needles for sewing and swords can make the proper size spike for anything you had in mind, and they had the drugs to leave someone comatose while they lined up the donor and recipient. What they didn't have was Nicrosil, Chromium, Bendalloy, and Cadmium, which steal in order: Investiture, possibly destiny, temporal Allomantic powers, and Spiritual Feruchemical powers. Still plenty to work with. If stealing multiple powers from a single Mistborn is possible, then I want it to require something more. An ability inaccessible to Ruin or the Inquisitors, some step that would take the recipient out of Ruin's control, something. If the answer is legitimately "line up multiple spikes by punching them into a sheet of cardboard and use a flat plank on top to hammer them all in at the same time" I'd feel let down.

I suppose it could also just be because Ruin's subconscious influence on Hemalurgy may have made non-lethal spiking more or less impossible during the time of the Final Empire. It was more destructive to the bearers of the spikes, allowing for the addition of more spikes than a soul can (or probably should) carry, so why not thedonors too?

14 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

No added cost? Free?? Just your conscience, dignity, self-respect, additional soap to wash the blood off your hands, possible therapy and counseling, and the time spent either in eugenics projects or capturing half a dozen Allomancers. I don't see any of the efforts to socialize Hemalurgy or find volunteer terminally ill donors letting you through the line 10 times, which probably means this is done illegally and against the donors' wills. Even if you only look at the cost of getting the Hemalurgic donors, the setup costs are significant and non-trivial, but yes, once you have your single spike, assuming it doesn't max out along the way, you will have an abnormally powerful burn and flare.

No, I don't think capturing 10 Coinshots alive before you put a single spike in yourself to be easy or low cost.

(Drinks from tea cup in a fancy manner while lounging in a luxurious armchair) "Oh, pish posh my dear fellow, when has this 'morality' business ever been an aspiring Hemalurgist's concern?"

But in all seriousness, I think I see your point; supercharged Hemalurgic spikes, while useful, are a lot more expensive than other alternative methods. 

Still, if you have access to either one, overcharged spikes are simply more powerful than the other available hacks in the majority of cases.

And I really do think you can get it morally, though you really need the right set up and powers to do so (F-gold and tin to remove pain and regenerate the donor's Spiritweb, along with them being willing and properly compensated). It wouldn't be cheap this way, but it is doable. 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I could see that... except it would feel like a really lame and obvious answer. The Inquisitors tried to draw more power to themselves over the course of hundreds of years of laboratory experiments and political maneuvering while Ruin augmented those same Inquisitors in HoA. If they always could just use 2-3 spikes instead of 1 to double or  more the powers harvested from a Mistborn or Feruchemist, that feels like a huge oversight. We can't blame advancements in technology either, as the metals themselves haven't changed, blacksmithing that can make needles for sewing and swords can make the proper size spike for anything you had in mind, and they had the drugs to leave someone comatose while they lined up the donor and recipient. What they didn't have was Nicrosil, Chromium, Bendalloy, and Cadmium, which steal in order: Investiture, possibly destiny, temporal Allomantic powers, and Spiritual Feruchemical powers. Still plenty to work with. If stealing multiple powers from a single Mistborn is possible, then I want it to require something more. An ability inaccessible to Ruin or the Inquisitors, some step that would take the recipient out of Ruin's control, something. If the answer is legitimately "line up multiple spikes by punching them into a sheet of cardboard and use a flat plank on top to hammer them all in at the same time" I'd feel let down.

Experimenting with Hemalurgy is expensive and wasteful. Inquisitors have a limited number of test subjects and if they mess up and kill one without getting any power, they will lose a spike forever. Inquisitors didn't all have the same set of spikes, it all depended on the number of Mistings they managed to capture. Experimentations with Atium are even more expensive and they did it to wrongly determine that Atium steals temporal powers (but it steals all). So we already have one example of Inquisitors missing the full potential of Atium, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that they would also miss that it's possible to steal multiple powers with a single spike. If the main component of this is for the donor to remain alive after spiking to spike them again (which we have WoB confirming that's possible), then it's clear why they'd never figured it out, as nobody knew that you can spike someone and not kill them until Set figured it out. Ruin simply didn't care about this, he didn't care about powers he was wasting by killing people - he was Ruin, the embodiment of entropy, everything must decay and so must Metallic Arts and even his Inquisitors. Even when Vin was killing Inquisitors and Koloss, she was serving Ruin. The fact that Ruin didn't care that much about empowering his Inquisitors is evident as he never taught them how to compound and they'd never figured it out on their own - even though Ruin was controlling them, it's their intent that mattered, if they didn't know, they weren't able to compound. With Hemalurgy Ruin was able to provide his own intent, but he simply didn't care about efficiency - he knew he won, Scadrial was meant to be wholly destroyed and waste and decay are in the core of his Shard, not efficiency. 

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching cadmium and bendalloy for atium and malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted atium and malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Elladan259

I have a questions. I read in the book that under the Lord Ruler, the Steel Inquisitors had 9 spikes. So they had 8 spikes for the normal Allomantic abilities, and only one left. But they needed one more. One would be a Feruchemical spike which granted the user healing abilities. And the other one would be an atium spike. In the book they burned it often, but how? But then, how could they burn atium? They would have needed an atium spike (extremely expensive) and an Mistborn (because atium Mistings weren't discovered).

Somehow, the number of the spike just don't make sense. There should be 10. Do you have some ideas, or is it just an mistake by Brandon Sanderson? 

Peter Ahlstrom

The official answer is that the number varies depending on how many Mistings they can find and sacrifice. Not all Inquisitors will have all the same powers.

TWG Posts (April 7, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Sporkify

Before, Inquisitors had supernatural healing. How did they get the Feruchemists for the spike? Were the keepers not so hidden after all?

Brandon Sanderson

The keepers have been hunted for years. Much like skaa Allomancers, they were often captured and taken by the Inquisitors. It didn't happen nearly as often, of course. Two things to remember, however: Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes, and spikes CAN be reused with much less effectiveness. The longer they are outside of a body, the more their power degrades.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

yulerule

Can you reuse a spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Uh, yes, technically, but not as easily as that question makes it sound.

yulerule

Can you re-use it if it's for the same exact thing or for a different thing? Will that change?

Brandon Sanderson

Spikes are going to get keyed by Identity--

yulerule

So you can't already spike that person. But if you spike and don't kill them can you spike the same person again?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and if you can somehow strip the identity of the person or the spike-- So yes you can use them again but it comes into a sort of-- Like, you can't just take that spike and spike somebody else.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Moogle

Compounding requires practice, according to The Hero of Age's annotations. And yet, it's apparently as easy as burning a metalmind. What was going on that meant the Inquisitors couldn't figure out how to do it (despite Ruin likely knowing how and undoubtedly wanting them to learn) for over a year? What skill did they need to practice doing, exactly?

And what happened while they were practicing burning metalminds without successfully Compounding? Did they get an Allomantic effect?

Brandon Sanderson

What I think I was getting at in the annotations was a cosmere magic rule that, perhaps, I hadn't completely refined yet. This is the idea that INTENTION is vitally important to the workings of most cosmere magics.

You can learn to burn metals instinctively over time, but it does take time--time for your body to figure out what it's doing. If you have instruction and guidance, you can pick it up in an evening, like Vin did. Same goes for most of the magics. This ties into Awakening, with the idea that you have to form a command.

During Warbreaker was where I really refined this aspect of the magic. Logically, since the beginning of the cosmere, I've wanted all three Realms to be important to the way the magics worked. The "Practice" therefore for compounding is mental practice--a barrier to overcome in understanding what is happening, and what it will do to you.

If you already know all of these things by having it explained to you, that barrier is far less high. I think that was what I was talking about in the Annotations, without really having the idea specified yet--though I'd have to look back at the annotation and re-read it to say for certain.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015)

 

7 hours ago, Duxredux said:

No added cost? Free?? Just your conscience, dignity, self-respect, additional soap to wash the blood off your hands, possible therapy and counseling, and the time spent either in eugenics projects or capturing half a dozen Allomancers. I don't see any of the efforts to socialize Hemalurgy or find volunteer terminally ill donors letting you through the line 10 times, which probably means this is done illegally and against the donors' wills. Even if you only look at the cost of getting the Hemalurgic donors, the setup costs are significant and non-trivial, but yes, once you have your single spike, assuming it doesn't max out along the way, you will have an abnormally powerful burn and flare.

No, I don't think capturing 10 Coinshots alive before you put a single spike in yourself to be easy or low cost.

I 100% agree. Add to this that every spike damages your spirit web, which isn't something trivial.