Aons and Geography

[Silverblade5 he/him]

If Arelon waged a war of conquest, and successful integrated the population for an extended period, would that change the Aons?

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Silverblade5 said:

If Arelon waged a war of conquest, and successful integrated the population for an extended period, would that change the Aons?

Unlikely. While there is no direct (WoB) answer, there is anecdotal evidence. 

Hrovell has been under Fjorden's control for most of centuries (First Empire, then religious dominance) and they still have their own indiginous Manifestation of Investiture unique to them, rather than Dakhor (and we have no indication that Dakhor changed due to Fjorden's accordian boundries). 

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The most common theory I have seen is that the people would have to shift their Cognitive Identity (Think of themselves by the new label) long enough for the region to also consider itself under that label as well. For example - Teos are Aonic and can be taken by the Shaod (but only while in Arelon's Borders), so while Teod has existed a long time, it has not impacted the land's Cognitive "Idea" of what "Aonic" means geographically.

Or, to put this IRL - Turks don't really consider themsleves "Byzantines" in their primary self-perception - So the Cognitive "Idea" of what was "Byzantium" has changed and broken into the lands you know now (which may or may not match political borders, as many of those divisions are artificial). 

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Silverblade5 said:

If Arelon waged a war of conquest, and successful integrated the population for an extended period, would that change the Aons?

It's about geography and that's not some made up lines on a political map. Political borders are separate from a geographical region in which the country of Arelon rose, Aons care only about geography. Aons wouldn't be changed.

Only people of Aonic descent can become Elantrians, however it's probably the matter of what they consider to be their homeland. The first Aonic people, who migrated to Arelon and to already standing Elantris, were not taken by the Shaod until several decades later so this implies it's not about genes, it's about self-identification as "Arelonians." If Arelon were to be conquered they would still consider Arelon's region their home, no matter if such country exists or not. If for example Fjordell where to banish everyone and colonize Arelon with their own people, it will probably take decades or centuries before they would be taken by Shaod as well, depending on how they view themselves.

 

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Or, to put this IRL - Turks don't really consider themsleves "Byzantines" in their primary self-perception - So the Cognitive "Idea" of what was "Byzantium" has changed and broken into the lands you know now (which may or may not match political borders, as many of those divisions are artificial). 

Can't help it, I have to point out maybe that's because the term Byzantium was only used more than 100 years after the Eastern Roman Empire fell as a refusal of their status of the Roman Empire successor because HRE claimed to be that and the term Byzantium originated from Germany? Byzantines considered themselves Romans and many Ottoman Turks called themselves Romans as well, as successors of the Eastern Roman Empire and were recognized as such by the Arabic world and even some Europeans.

[Treamayne]

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Can't help it, I have to point out maybe that's because the term Byzantium was only used more than 100 years after the Eastern Roman Empire fell as a refusal of their status of the Roman Empire successor because HRE claimed to be that and the term Byzantium originated from Germany? Byzantines considered themselves Romans and many Ottoman Turks called themselves Romans as well, as successors of the Eastern Roman Empire and were recognized as such by the Arabic world and even some Europeans.

Thank you very much. Great to learn something new. 

But, is the idea correct? The current inhabitants would not have a primary self-identity of "We are Roman" at this point?

Edited Wednesday at 02:10 PM by Treamayne
Query

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But, is the idea correct? The current inhabitants would not have a primary self-identity of "We are Roman" at this point?

In the case of Turkey yes, for sure there is no prevalent self-identity of being Roman. But it also depends, Byzantines stubbornly called themselves Romans till the very end, even though 1000 years had passed since Rome had fallen and they were vastly different than Romans of the Western Roman Empire. Then many of those "natives" also considered themselves true Romans under Ottoman rule, who viewed themselves as their successors through the conquest for some time. But nations evolve, people change, priorities shift, new identities are developed and the tie to ancient Rome eventually gets diminished in importance. On the other hand we also have Greeks who never stopped considering themselves as Greeks even though they lived for 2000 years under rule of foreign powers (although Greece and its culture was of great influence over the Eastern Roman Empire). 

If Arelon were to conquer others, then I see no reason why they would try to call themselves someone else's title. This is because their own culture and history is strong enough that they can take pride in it and their tie to Arelon (and most important Elantris) is a key to their identity - just look at the first Aonic people who quickly overcome their fear and moved into the abandoned city of Elantris itself, as the glory of being rulers of it was too vast to be sitting under its walls. Over time they will probably include other conquered nations as Aonic, just like at the beginning Romans were considered to be only the citizens of the city of Rome, despite their vast conquests, then they included every Italic people as true Romans, later that was extended even further.

Would that change Aons? No. As I said earlier, I believe Aons are strictly about geography, not people and their perception - it didn't matter that there was nobody living in Arelon before Aonic people migrated there, Aons already existed as they are tied to the land itself - Aons were discovered, not created. Perception has no big impact on Aons because Elantrians didn't know about the Chasm, yet it changed Aons immediately. Because on Sel investiture is trapped in the CR, the self-perception and identity are less important than proximity and location. Even if Fjordell was conquered and successfully integrated by Arelon, to the point that they will identify themselves as true Aonic people, a person from the total opposite of the new Arelon empire would never be taken by Shaod, because they are simply too far away from Elantris and its investiture, lacking any ties to the land of Arelon itself - they may have ties to people and Arelon as a country, but not to the land. In this case their tie to the local land would be stronger than to the distant land on the other side of the massive empire.

A better example, if for some reason Teod were to fully conquer the Rose Empire up north, then they will have all the reasons to call themselves as their true successors and true citizens of the Empire (Rosans?  ) and change their identity to theirs. That would be politically beneficial to them, improve their status and prestige - just like Ottomans calling themselves Romans after conquering Constantinople. Also they would "feel" closer to the Rose Empire, because traveling and trade between them would blossom, news would be exchanged faster and matters of the northern parts of the empire would be of importance to those in Teod. This change of identity and self-perception might be enough to cut their ties to Arelon and their Aonic descend, preventing them from being taken by Shaod at all. Their geographic proximity didn't change, but their Connection to the land did and they are already close enough to those two lands for their perception to matter a bit.

In the case of Shaod and other invested arts, perception still matters (as evident by the first Aonic people who were taken by Shaod only decades after migrating to Arelon, not immediately), but the location seems to be far more important factor (because Aonic people had to live in Arelon for this to work at all and people from Teod are taken only when they are in Arelon) and I think in some cases perception alone can't break through the fact that you're nowhere near the proper geographical location you need to be to be an Elantrian. But Aons are based on geography only - if you want to change them then cut forests, reroute rivers, dry lakes and flatten hills - that will change Aons, not imaginary borders on maps.

[Treamayne]

Thanks again for the insight. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Over time they will probably include other conquered nations as Aonic, just like at the beginning Romans were considered to be only the citizens of the city of Rome, despite their vast conquests, then they included every Italic people as true Romans, later that was extended even further.

I was actually discussing the inverse (converse?) - in that the peoples conquered by Arelon would not consider themselves Aonic (whether or not Arelon did) - just as Fjorden's territories do not consider themselves Fjordell (just look at Jalla's indignation - "I'm Svordish"). 

Concur on the Geography, Aon. We don't even know if Elantris' builders considered themselves "Aonic" since the peoples and sounds for the Aons all came after they were gone. 

Edited Thursday at 01:07 AM by Treamayne
Clarity/SPAG

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I was actually discussing the inverse (converse?) - in that the peoples conquered by Arelon would not consider themselves Aonic (whether or not Arelon did) - just as Fjorden's territories do not consider themselves Fjordell (just look at Jalla's indignation - "I'm Svordish"). 

Yes, I agree with it too. That was just the best case scenario, which might happen if the conditions are just right, if the cultural integration is deep enough and enough time has passed - we're talking centuries of time, a very long time frame in which people will slowly develop a new identity.