Enhanced Senses

[Dager000 He/Him]

In this WOB, Brandon says that Feruchemical tin could store Allomantically granted/enhanced senses: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9199. It’s specifically referring to a Seeker’s senses, here, but I see no reason (off the dome) that Tineye senses wouldn’t be par for the course.

So, say you have a Fullborn (or Investiture user with access to Allomantic tin, Allomantic duralumin, and Feruchemical tin; via Hemalurgy or otherwise): if they consumed a large amount of tin, burned the entire reserve at once using duralumin, and stored it in a tinmind, what would we expect the product to be?

1. An absurdly strong sense for a very short duration (scaling similarly to regular tinmind creation, ish)

2. Similar sense enhancement to a typical tinmind, but potential access for a longer duration (i.e. the sense strength acted like a longer stored duration of regular sight and hearing)

3. Standard sense enhancement with standard access duration (i.e. the tinmind hits capacity before excess can be stored)

4. The ability to tap their tinmind for the Allomantic equivalent of the enhanced sense (i.e. usually tapping a tinmind doesn’t give the same kind of sense enhancement that a Tineye would get; HOA Ch. 66) for a questionable duration

I think my gut says that 1 or 3 is the most likely — or potentially both are — since minimally tapping the theoretical tinmind in 1 would lead to less enhancement than was originally stored while leaving quite a bit of the enhanced sense left (basically mimicking a standard tinmind); or, in the case of 3, trying to drain it all at once should lead to a burst of a horribly heightened sense (probably). 

Quick caveats/other thoughts:

- The tinmind could only store one of the enhanced senses from burning tin
- If 1 is correct, the tinmind might be completely useless, since it might basically flashbang the user and totally overwhelm them. Alternatively, it could be super useful as a way to fraud a bigger tinmind (i.e. storing a very strong sense in a very small tinmind, which you then tap very slowly, might act like a bigger one tapped at a more regular rate) 

Hope this is comprehensible, I’m tired and procrastinating some chores and I thought this might be an interesting hypothetical. And who knows, maybe this could have some espionage potential if you get the right combination of Mistings and Feruchemists together to make a really weird unkeyed metalmind. 

[+hwiles He/Him]

2 hours ago, Dager000 said:

...

So, say you have a Fullborn (or Investiture user with access to Allomantic tin, Allomantic duralumin, and Feruchemical tin; via Hemalurgy or otherwise): if they consumed a large amount of tin, burned the entire reserve at once using duralumin, and stored it in a tinmind, what would we expect the product to be?

...

The important point here is that tin feruchemy functions normally during these otherwise exotic applications, IE: if one stores two sensory capabilities at 100% focus such as sight and smell into two separate tinminds, such that are totally blind and unable to smell, while burning duralumin and tin for 0.5 seconds, they should end up with 0.5 seconds worth of extreme hyper sight and smell stored feruchemically, which could be drawn back out slowly to extend the duration. Essentially, it's equivalent to just storing the senses granted by normal tin Allomancy (just faster).

An even more exotic interaction might be possible for a twinborn with f:tin + a:iron/steel. Iron sight is technically a form of sensory awareness which is independent from the sight granted by human eyes (this is what allows inquisitors to perceive the world and why even a blind coinshot would be dangerous in a fight.) Basically, a tin feruchemist who had a tinmind loaded with steel-sight should be able to perceive steel-lines with variable intensity (they could see in total darkness even better than an Inquisitor and that's insane!) All while being virtually undetectable by seekers, even without a smoker present to shield them. Theoretically, they could just walk around and be able to see through walls with no one being able to tell that they were doing it, which is kind of funny. Could definitely lead to shenanigans and trouble though.

[Quantus he/him]

The biggest downside of A-tin is that it enhances all the senses all at once, and potentially to the extreme.  So a big part of the power of a TinTwin is that they can store all the other sense and get Just the one supersense they want, either with an active burn and active storing or with a controlled burn at some past point and lots of Tapping.  

To the OP, Allomantic tin is fundamentally different by being a magical sense rather than enhancing the physical (which is why A-tin sees through Mist but F-tin does not), so with enough stored or enough Duralumin on the burn and you're likely to run the risk of piercing the realms a but and having a Seeing the Stars moment kinda like the super Atium Burn (though it'd take a massive amount to rival that).  

Reaching Further out into pure speculation, This WOB implies that Pewter is actually activating more of a Mind-Over-Matter state for the body which could be trained to do more than the default effect it has and closer to the Returned.  If , as another Physical metal, Tin operates similarly for senses, then there's a possibility that A-Tin could be trained to grant and/or Heighten their senses to get things like Perfect Pitch or Perfect Color Recognition.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how similar are the processes of Command-Breaking a Lifeless and Unmaking?

2. Is there more going on behind the scenes when an Allomancer burns pewter? I suspect that the process triggers a "mind over matter" state, where the user's desires are made manifest, albeit in a limited way. If so, can a pewter burner alter their Physical appearance, similar to a Returned (provided they knew they could and had access to enough pewter)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1. 7 they are similar

2a. That is a valid theory. On the right track. 

2b. Possible in theory

FanX 2022 (Sept. 22, 2022)

 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 hours ago, Dager000 said:

In this WOB, Brandon says that Feruchemical tin could store Allomantically granted/enhanced senses: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9199. It’s specifically referring to a Seeker’s senses, here, but I see no reason (off the dome) that Tineye senses wouldn’t be par for the course.

So, say you have a Fullborn (or Investiture user with access to Allomantic tin, Allomantic duralumin, and Feruchemical tin; via Hemalurgy or otherwise): if they consumed a large amount of tin, burned the entire reserve at once using duralumin, and stored it in a tinmind, what would we expect the product to be?

1. An absurdly strong sense for a very short duration (scaling similarly to regular tinmind creation, ish)

2. Similar sense enhancement to a typical tinmind, but potential access for a longer duration (i.e. the sense strength acted like a longer stored duration of regular sight and hearing)

3. Standard sense enhancement with standard access duration (i.e. the tinmind hits capacity before excess can be stored)

4. The ability to tap their tinmind for the Allomantic equivalent of the enhanced sense (i.e. usually tapping a tinmind doesn’t give the same kind of sense enhancement that a Tineye would get; HOA Ch. 66) for a questionable duration

I think my gut says that 1 or 3 is the most likely — or potentially both are — since minimally tapping the theoretical tinmind in 1 would lead to less enhancement than was originally stored while leaving quite a bit of the enhanced sense left (basically mimicking a standard tinmind); or, in the case of 3, trying to drain it all at once should lead to a burst of a horribly heightened sense (probably). 

Quick caveats/other thoughts:

- The tinmind could only store one of the enhanced senses from burning tin
- If 1 is correct, the tinmind might be completely useless, since it might basically flashbang the user and totally overwhelm them. Alternatively, it could be super useful as a way to fraud a bigger tinmind (i.e. storing a very strong sense in a very small tinmind, which you then tap very slowly, might act like a bigger one tapped at a more regular rate) 

Hope this is comprehensible, I’m tired and procrastinating some chores and I thought this might be an interesting hypothetical. And who knows, maybe this could have some espionage potential if you get the right combination of Mistings and Feruchemists together to make a really weird unkeyed metalmind. 

This is, essentially, a hack that allows you to quickly Compound F-tin Stores with other senses.

Allomantic duralumin can be used to speed up Compounding to a near instantaneous process, and I see no reason why this would be different. 

Basically, as long as you Tap your newly filled Tinmind slowly, it acts as normal, just that you filled it in an instant rather than spending hours Compounding. 

[Dager000 He/Him]

Thanks all for humoring the question/theory so far! Honestly I somehow completely blanked on the fact that tin compounding would be relevant; I’m blaming that on the late hour lol. 
 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

So a big part of the power of a TinTwin is that they can store all the other sense and get Just the one supersense they want, either with an active burn and active storing or with a controlled burn at some past point and lots of Tapping.  

Out of curiosity, is there textual evidence or a WOB supporting this specifically? Admittedly I didn’t look super hard, and I totally buy the idea, but I’m curious if we’ve seen it in universe and I’m just forgetting. 

Quote

To the OP, Allomantic tin is fundamentally different by being a magical sense rather than enhancing the physical (which is why A-tin sees through Mist but F-tin does not), so with enough stored or enough Duralumin on the burn and you're likely to run the risk of piercing the realms a but and having a Seeing the Stars moment kinda like the super Atium Burn (though it'd take a massive amount to rival that).   

Fair point! Do you think that during the duralumin-bursted tin burn, the person storing sight but not the magical sense component would still get that burst? Or is the sight itself modified? I don’t think we’ve seen anything clarifying this before — the mist-piercing has never seemed super fleshed out to me before. 

Quote

Reaching Further out into pure speculation, This WOB implies that Pewter is actually activating more of a Mind-Over-Matter state for the body which could be trained to do more than the default effect it has and closer to the Returned.  If , as another Physical metal, Tin operates similarly for senses, then there's a possibility that A-Tin could be trained to grant and/or Heighten their senses to get things like Perfect Pitch or Perfect Color Recognition.  

Oh interesting, never seen that before. Yeah given how much Intent matters in general, I can totally see a Cosmere-aware tineye adjusting parameters of their enhanced senses (or at least knowing they might be able to). Cool idea for sure.

Edited June 28 by Dager000
Formatting

[Quantus he/him]

16 minutes ago, Dager000 said:

Thanks all for humoring the question/theory so far! Honestly I somehow completely blanked on the fact that tin compounding would be relevant; I’m blaming that on the late hour lol. 
 

Out of curiosity, is there textual evidence or a WOB supporting this specifically? Admittedly I didn’t look super hard, and I totally buy the idea, but I’m curious if we’ve seen it in universe and I’m just forgetting. 

I dont have quotes offhand but it's discussed in the era1 books, in the context of the differences between allomantic and feruchemical Tin (though no specific Tin twinborn tricks onscreen).  By their current understanding, Allomancers Cant enhance only a single sense to they have to deal with a lot of diverse over-sensitivity issues when using or especially flairing it; Feruchemists by contrast Require different Metalminds for each sense and have to Tap&store them separately, but are generally capable of tapping and storing different attributes at the same time.  Together those two "limitations" will logically counter each other quite nicely.

16 minutes ago, Dager000 said:

Fair point! Do you think that during the duralumin-bursted tin burn, the person storing sight but not the magical sense component would still get that burst? Or is the sight itself modified? I don’t think we’ve seen anything clarifying this before — the mist-piercing has never seemed super fleshed out to me before. 

I think it's more about a threshold level of Investiture being shoved into the Perception sector of your spiritweb thats getting overloaded and breaking the system, the same way atium does in this WOB:

 

Spoiler

Quote

 

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Dager000 said:

Oh interesting, never seen that before. Yeah given how much Intent matters in general, I can totally see a Cosmere-aware tineye adjusting parameters of their enhanced senses (or at least knowing they might be able to). Cool idea for sure.

Sanderson has said he tried to make sure the major shardworld magic systems would have all the basis covered for magical effects, for when the magics become more mechanized and scientific (and we're assuming War breaks out between factions). So from a doylist standpoint I suspect all the Allomantic and feruchemcial metals will prove to be way more versatile than the current scadrians realize, and will use increasing complex magic devices to pull off nearly anything we've seen from other magic systems (just like AonDor or Surges&fabrials). 

[AlastorBM He]

On 6/28/2024 at 1:18 PM, Trusk'our said:

Basically, as long as you Tap your newly filled Tinmind slowly, it acts as normal, just that you filled it in an instant rather than spending hours Compounding.

I don't know if i understood this correctly, my English is not the best. How does this work? I mean, if you are tapping vision, let's say, and you burn duralumin, do you get the total of the accumulated vision at the same time? I understand that it makes the process instantaneous. 

But to compound and fill the new Tinmind you need to burn it, isn't this instantaneous in itself, or is it always done slowly, I don't remember. Or does it mean that with duralumin it becomes instantaneous.

[Dager000 He/Him]

3 hours ago, AlastorBM said:

I mean, if you are tapping vision, let's say, and you burn duralumin, do you get the total of the accumulated vision at the same time? I understand that it makes the process instantaneous. 

Assuming you mean tapping the vision Tinmind, a Feruchemist can control the speed at which they tap their metalminds -- here's an example from WoA Ch. 53:

Quote

He tapped pewter.

His muscles grew. He drew deeply upon his pewtermind[...] taking more strength than he ever had before. He had spent years storing up the strength, rarely finding occasion to use it, and now he tapped that reserve.

[...]

His chest widened, bulging, and his muscles grew taut with power. Days spent fragile and frail focused on this single moment.

Might not be the earliest example? But here, we can see Sazed quickly draining his pewtermind to draw a vast amount of strength out in a very short period of time. He happens to have stored a lot, so he ends up able to maintain the state at least for a bit, but not nearly as long as he'd have been able to if he had tapped it in a much lower amount.

A Fullborn tapping duralumin would (to the best of my knowledge) not be able to tap their metalminds any quicker than the average Feruchemist, since allomantic duralumin only has an effect on the internal allomantic metal reserves of a Mistborn. However, compounding does lead to quicker tapping.

Separately, if this is a different point of confusion, using allomantic tin enhances all of your senses at once -- you can't just enhance one. However, a TinTwin could store just one of their enhanced senses in a tinmind (and, in fact, would be required to use a single tinmind for a single sense anyways).

3 hours ago, AlastorBM said:

But to compound and fill the new Tinmind you need to burn it, isn't this instantaneous in itself, or is it always done slowly, I don't remember. Or does it mean that with duralumin it becomes instantaneous.

Compounding to fill and tap the Tinmind should basically be instantaneous (as best I can tell), like how the Lord Ruler only needs to age briefly to gain a ton of youth, and Miles Hundredlives can gain a vast amount of healing by barely making himself sick (to the best of my memory; not sure we really see him do this in the books, but iirc it's described that way).

Now that I'm reading this part of your reply, I think I see what the question is: since burning duralumin allows you to burn the whole allomantic reserve at once, and having a big enough metalmind allows for compounding, does duralumin have a tangible effect on filling the metalmind? My best guess here is... kind of: you're right that compounding happens nigh instantaneously; however, the important thing here would be that burning tin using duralumin leads to a heightened tin effect in the first place (re: Seeing the Stars) -- which should let the metalmind hold a stronger version of the sense stored. This would (assuming our discussion above is right) be the equivalent of storing the sense for longer. Even though the compounding would still happen at instant speed, you're storing an even stronger version of the sense at instant speed, which means the compounding (when tapping the metalmind) would kind of be having an even more than tenfold effect on the sense stored. Additionally, you have a longer-lasting reserve in the metalmind since you could just tap it less quickly.

I hope this makes sense/clarifies! And that if I'm wrong somehow here, someone corrects me (edit: I was very wrong).

TL;DR: compounding is basically instantaneous and leads to an increase in the feruchemical ability stored. However, duralumin burning allomantic tin leads to a seriously stronger version of all senses, which when stored would lead to "more" of the sense being stored instantaneously (increasing the "duration" a Fullborn/Twinborn could access).

Edited July 2 by Dager000
Misinformation. Always be more diligent. Whoops

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, AlastorBM said:

But to compound and fill the new Tinmind you need to burn it, isn't this instantaneous in itself, or is it always done slowly, I don't remember. Or does it mean that with duralumin it becomes instantaneous.

Compounding on it's own with no duralumin takes time, just as burning any metal normally does.

Compounding while burning duralumin makes the process instantaneous.

In other words, if a gold Compounder wanted to Compound 20 pounds of Goldminds into health, it might take them days to do so. If the Compounder can also burn duralumin at the same time, they can Compound the same amount of health, only in 1 second instead.

Edited July 2 by Trusk'our

[Dager000 He/Him]

Oh, interesting. Guess I spoke from a place of complete misinformation... whoops.

[AlastorBM He]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

In other words, if a gold Compounder wanted to Compound 20 pounds of Goldminds into health, it might take them days to do so. If the Compounder can also burn duralumin at the same time, they can Compound the same amount of health, only in 1 second instead.

Interesting, I always thought that compound was instantaneous or at least it took as long as metal to burn. Thank you for responding!

13 hours ago, Dager000 said:

duralumin burning allomantic tin leads to a seriously stronger version of all senses, which when stored would lead to "more" of the sense being stored instantaneously (increasing the "duration" a Fullborn/Twinborn could access).

Now reading all the answers I understand well! It's a small but big difference. Thank you very much for responding!

Edited July 2 by AlastorBM