Electrum and Time Bubbles

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

So, what would happen if you burned electrum in a time bubble?

It seems that one benefit would be, it would help you predict the deflection of incoming projectiles. Theoretically, the bubble should be full of electrumshadows, because they split to show all the possible things you could do. This means that you can see the path of a bullet based on which shadows get hit, even if the bullets are aluminum.

This would be especially helpful in a cadmium bubble, where you are vulnerable to people outside. It probably wouldn't help if you have a bunch of people shooting at you at once, since electrum doesn't enhance the mind like atium does, but if you just have a few enemies to worry about, it would probably keep you safe.

Here's where it gets crazy. What if you could use electrum to predict the trajectory of your own shots? Say you're standing in a bendalloy bubble. You aim at someone outside, and then burn electrum. The resulting electrumshadows should show you all the possible angles you could shoot at. Theoretically, at least one angle should result in the bullet bouncing just right to hit what you were aiming for. If you train yourself to give a signal after a successful hit, then your shadows will do that if they get a hit. You then aim the same way as the shadow, and if you fire at the right moment, you should hit.

This might be very difficult, but I think that it is probably at least possible to do. Thoughts?

[Trusk'our he/him]

14 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

So, what would happen if you burned electrum in a time bubble?

It seems that one benefit would be, it would help you predict the deflection of incoming projectiles. Theoretically, the bubble should be full of electrumshadows, because they split to show all the possible things you could do. This means that you can see the path of a bullet based on which shadows get hit, even if the bullets are aluminum.

This would be especially helpful in a cadmium bubble, where you are vulnerable to people outside. It probably wouldn't help if you have a bunch of people shooting at you at once, since electrum doesn't enhance the mind like atium does, but if you just have a few enemies to worry about, it would probably keep you safe.

Here's where it gets crazy. What if you could use electrum to predict the trajectory of your own shots? Say you're standing in a bendalloy bubble. You aim at someone outside, and then burn electrum. The resulting electrumshadows should show you all the possible angles you could shoot at. Theoretically, at least one angle should result in the bullet bouncing just right to hit what you were aiming for. If you train yourself to give a signal after a successful hit, then your shadows will do that if they get a hit. You then aim the same way as the shadow, and if you fire at the right moment, you should hit.

This might be very difficult, but I think that it is probably at least possible to do. Thoughts?

Hmm, this actually seems like a very plausible combination to me.

Tracking an object leaving a speed bubble is really hard, but it seems to be predictable, technically speaking, albeit very, very difficult. So, perhaps it would be more doable with electrum, just somewhat difficult. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33-arcanum-unbounded-san-francisco-signing/#e2762

Questioner

Now, do things actually move unpredictable at the edge [of a speed bubble] or do they refract out? Is it just that geometry is hard?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I have a level of unpredictability, I mean we're Chaos Theory. The idea being, you could predict if you had a perfect closed system and things like this, but it's unfeasible for most technology and minds to be able to predict.

Now, because speed bubbles don't interfere with Investiture interactions in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, I suspect burning electrum in a speed bubble would augment the strength of your electrum shadows, allowing you to see further, and perhaps more clearly than outside. Plus, you get more time to study the shadow, perhaps giving you an extra edge. 

Edited yesterday at 03:13 AM by Trusk'our

[Elite01]

I agree seems likely. Do you think it would be a matter of time like burning Electrum for X minutes to get the result you want? 
Or could you improve it by practice? 

[Treamayne]

22 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Theoretically, the bubble should be full of electrumshadows, because they split to show all the possible things you could do.

Where do you get this?

There would only be one Electrum Shadow unless there is another Electrum or Atium user also burning. Being in a Cadmium or Bendalloy bubble has an effect on the Surge of Time, but does not access Fortune the way that Burning Atium and Electrum do. This access to Fortune is what causes the split shadows when two sources are interfering with each other. Granted, the only WoB on the subject that I can find is a RAFO, but I also cannot find any evidence supporting your supposition (Which is why I asked what theory you were referencing, if not your own). 

Spoiler

Questioner

What happens if you burn atium at the same time as cadmium or bendalloy?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be really cool to see. *laughter* Here you go, you can have a RAFO card.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Compressed or Compounded F-Zinc is far more likely to result in esitmating the refraction of objects passing through a Speed bubble (see @Trusk'our's WoB) as you can notice, process and account for more variables much faster and easier. 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hmm, this actually seems like a very plausible combination to me.

Tracking an object leaving a speed bubble is really hard, but it seems to be predictable, technically speaking, albeit very, very difficult. So, perhaps it would be more doable with electrum, just somewhat difficult. 

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33-arcanum-unbounded-san-francisco-signing/#e2762

Questioner

Now, do things actually move unpredictable at the edge [of a speed bubble] or do they refract out? Is it just that geometry is hard?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I have a level of unpredictability, I mean we're Chaos Theory. The idea being, you could predict if you had a perfect closed system and things like this, but it's unfeasible for most technology and minds to be able to predict.

Now, because speed bubbles don't interfere with Investiture interactions in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, I suspect burning electrum in a speed bubble would augment the strength of your electrum shadows, allowing you to see further, and perhaps more clearly than outside. Plus, you get more time to study the shadow, perhaps giving you an extra edge. 

If any of your shadows were outside the bubble, you would have more time, but the inside ones should still be moving at the same speed relative to you, I think.

I had also considered that atium might work, because you could theoretically see the bullets shadow leaving the bubble, and you could just adjust your aim until it went the right way, but I'm not entirely sure if that would work, because atiumshadows don't take into account what the person atium might do. For example, if your a mistborn burning atium, and there's a coin on the ground, you could Push on it in many different directions or at different times, which leads to a lot of possible futures for the coin, but its shadow doesn't actually split.

8 hours ago, Elite01 said:

I agree seems likely. Do you think it would be a matter of time like burning Electrum for X minutes to get the result you want? 
Or could you improve it by practice? 

Sorry, I don't quite understand the question. Could you rephrase that?

 

27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Where do you get this?

There would only be one Electrum Shadow unless there is another Electrum or Atium user also burning. Being in a Cadmium or Bendalloy bubble has an effect on the Surge of Time, but does not access Fortune the way that Burning Atium and Electrum do. This access to Fortune is what causes the split shadows when two sources are interfering with each other. Granted, the only WoB on the subject that I can find is a RAFO, but I also cannot find any evidence supporting your supposition (Which is why I asked what theory you were referencing, if not your own). 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

What happens if you burn atium at the same time as cadmium or bendalloy?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be really cool to see. *laughter* Here you go, you can have a RAFO card.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Compressed or Compounded F-Zinc is far more likely to result in esitmating the refraction of objects passing through a Speed bubble (see @Trusk'our's WoB) as you can notice, process and account for more variables much faster and easier. 

My understanding of electrum is that the shadows split no matter what. Atium doesn't split because you see what someone else is going to do, and they are going to do that no matter what, unless they can see the future. The way I think of it is you have an arrow going from the atium user to every other object around them, because they can see the future of those objects, but none of those objects can see their own future. Add another atium burner and it creates arrows both ways between atium burners. As soon as you have an arrow going both ways, it creates a feedback loop that causes a bunch of shadows. For electrum, the arrow is automatically in a loop, because it goes from you to yourself.

This WOB isn't explicit about there being multiple shadows, but it seems to imply it:

Spoiler

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

So, looking at this, there might not automatically be a lot of shadows. It seems like maybe looking at the shadow causes it to split, because now that you see this future, you no longer have to follow it, so it creates other options.

One way I think of it is that there's your base shadow, which shows what you would do if you weren't burning electrum. Because you see that, you can choose to change it, so that creates more shadows, showing options that you could do instead. You could call them second generation shadows. These shadows show things you might do if you were able to see the first shadow. In continues on like that, where each set of shadows takes into account the fact that you can see the ones before it. It probably stops once there are too many shadows for you to consider all of them.

And, yes, this is my own theory. I haven't seen anyone discuss electrum/atium in bubbles, except for that one WOB you brought up. It's really all theoretical, especially since we haven't see electrum used other than as a counter to atium. I do think it might be possible, if very difficult.

Ooh, I didn't think about using zinc before! I would imagine that you would need a lot of zinc, and you would also need to already understand how time bubble refraction works. But yeah, that could totally be a better way of doing it.

Edited yesterday at 11:57 AM by Speeding Steelrunner

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

If any of your shadows were outside the bubble, you would have more time, but the inside ones should still be moving at the same speed relative to you, I think.

I had also considered that atium might work, because you could theoretically see the bullets shadow leaving the bubble, and you could just adjust your aim until it went the right way, but I'm not entirely sure if that would work, because atiumshadows don't take into account what the person atium might do. For example, if your a mistborn burning atium, and there's a coin on the ground, you could Push on it in many different directions or at different times, which leads to a lot of possible futures for the coin, but its shadow doesn't actually split.

Sorry, I don't quite understand the question. Could you rephrase that?

 

My understanding of electrum is that the shadows split no matter what. Atium doesn't split because you see what someone else is going to do, and they are going to do that no matter what, unless they can see the future. The way I think of it is you have an arrow going from the atium user to every other object around them, because they can see the future of those objects, but none of those objects can see their own future. Add another atium burner and it creates arrows both ways between atium burners. As soon as you have an arrow going both ways, it creates a feedback loop that causes a bunch of shadows. For electrum, the arrow is automatically in a loop, because it goes from you to yourself.

This WOB isn't explicit about there being multiple shadows, but it seems to imply it:

  Hide contents

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

So, looking at this, there might not automatically be a lot of shadows. It seems like maybe looking at the shadow causes it to split, because now that you see this future, you no longer have to follow it, so it creates other options.

One way I think of it is that there's your base shadow, which shows what you would do if you weren't burning electrum. Because you see that, you can choose to change it, so that creates more shadows, showing options that you could do instead. You could call them second generation shadows. These shadows show things you might do if you were able to see the first shadow. In continues on like that, where each set of shadows takes into account the fact that you can see the ones before it. It probably stops once there are too many shadows for you to consider all of them.

And, yes, this is my own theory. I haven't seen anyone discuss electrum/atium in bubbles, except for that one WOB you brought up. It's really all theoretical, especially since we haven't see electrum used other than as a counter to atium. I do think it might be possible, if very difficult.

Ooh, I didn't think about using zinc before! I would imagine that you would need a lot of zinc, and you would also need to already understand how time bubble refraction works. But yeah, that could totally be a better way of doing it.

Strongly agree, a person should only have a single electrum shadow while burning if they commit and steel themselves to following and copying its actions exactly. This...actually opens up crazy possibilities, because one can make changes to their behavior at the last second in response to very specific electrum shadow actions if they were disciplined enough. Like, one should theoretically be able to communicate backwards in time using sign language inside a bendalloy bubble if I'm understanding how these systems work.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Where do you get this?

There would only be one Electrum Shadow unless there is another Electrum or Atium user also burning.

From HoA ch 3:

Quote

Vin burned electrum. This created a cloud of images around her, shadows of possible things she could do in the future. Electrum, the Allomantic complement of gold. Elend had started calling it "poor man's atium." It wouldn't affect the battle much, other than to make her immune to atium, should the Inquisitor have any.

Electrum, unlike Atium, shows you a mess of many different shadows of possible future that you can do. This is because electrum shows you your future, thus you can react to it and change it, which creates another shadow, to which you can react and make another one etc. This WoB confirms that:

Spoiler

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

9 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Strongly agree, a person should only have a single electrum shadow while burning if they commit and steel themselves to following and copying its actions exactly. This...actually opens up crazy possibilities, because one can make changes to their behavior at the last second in response to very specific electrum shadow actions if they were disciplined enough. Like, one should theoretically be able to communicate backwards in time using sign language inside a bendalloy bubble if I'm understanding how these systems work.

Yeah, I have seen the backwards communication idea before, and it seems like it should be possible. The question would be, could a person get that disciplined? Also, can the shadows be burning electrum as well? If they can, then theoretically, you could get information from really far in the future, but otherwise you're pretty limited.

I'm not sure if it is possible to keep a shadow from splitting at all. The question here is, how much does your intention to follow a certain path affect what shadows you see? Does it affect it at all? As a simple example, let's say you plan to run forward. Barring some radical change to the situation in the next few seconds, at least some of your shadows are going to run forward. But how many? If you're absolutely irrevocably set on running forwards, will all of them run forwards, or will some do other things, since it is physically possible that you could?

[+hwiles]

2 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

...

I'm not sure if it is possible to keep a shadow from splitting at all. The question here is, how much does your intention to follow a certain path affect what shadows you see? Does it affect it at all? As a simple example, let's say you plan to run forward. Barring some radical change to the situation in the next few seconds, at least some of your shadows are going to run forward. But how many? If you're absolutely irrevocably set on running forwards, will all of them run forwards, or will some do other things, since it is physically possible that you could?

I think this exact situation depicts perfectly why Feruchemical electrum storing Determination is a poetically perfect counterpart to allomantic electrum revealing one's shadows into the future!

Ahem. Expanding a bit:

What would an electrum shadow with infinite Determination look like in an electrum compounder? I opine that it would look like a person who cannot be deterred from their set path and performs every action necessary to stay on that path possible. I would expect them operate with a single crystal-clear electrum shadow that follows a single path in accordance with their (magically mega-enhanced) ((personal)) Intent that only splits if something external that has not happened yet is going to make following or staying compliant with that Intent impossible OR introduces futuresight feedback loops (like a Seer or Inquisitor showing up looking for a fight).

A person with weak Determination might always operate with many conflicting electrum shadows though...

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

5 hours ago, hwiles said:

I think this exact situation depicts perfectly why Feruchemical electrum storing Determination is a poetically perfect counterpart to allomantic electrum revealing one's shadows into the future!

Ahem. Expanding a bit:

What would an electrum shadow with infinite Determination look like in an electrum compounder? I opine that it would look like a person who cannot be deterred from their set path and performs every action necessary to stay on that path possible. I would expect them operate with a single crystal-clear electrum shadow that follows a single path in accordance with their (magically mega-enhanced) ((personal)) Intent that only splits if something external that has not happened yet is going to make following or staying compliant with that Intent impossible OR introduces futuresight feedback loops (like a Seer or Inquisitor showing up looking for a fight).

A person with weak Determination might always operate with many conflicting electrum shadows though...

That does seem plausible. I generally consider F-electrum the weakest Feruchemical metal, but that might be one good use for it.

My theory about what shadows you see when using A-electrum is that it shows all futures above a certain threshold of likelihood. What you intend to do dramatically affects the likelihood of each future. For example, if you’re just walking down the street, the majority of your shadows are going to continue doing that, even though physically it’s just as possible for them to go any other direction. This fits with your idea about determination. The more determined you are, the more likely certain futures are and the less likely others are.

I do think, however, that to narrow down to one shadow, you would have to be very determined to do something very specific. In the walking down the street example, you might be determined enough to keep walking that there are no shadows doing other things, but there still could be variations in the position, speed, etc. of the shadows going down the street. And this is a relatively simple example. In more complex situations, there would be even more variations that produce extra shadows.

Fortunately, it isn’t really necessary to only have one shadow—you just want to have few enough that you can pay attention to all of them. In fact, I think it would be good to be able to see other possibilities, so that you have more options.

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

My understanding of electrum is that the shadows split no matter what. Atium doesn't split because you see what someone else is going to do, and they are going to do that no matter what, unless they can see the future. The way I think of it is you have an arrow going from the atium user to every other object around them, because they can see the future of those objects, but none of those objects can see their own future. Add another atium burner and it creates arrows both ways between atium burners. As soon as you have an arrow going both ways, it creates a feedback loop that causes a bunch of shadows. For electrum, the arrow is automatically in a loop, because it goes from you to yourself.

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Electrum, unlike Atium, shows you a mess of many different shadows of possible future that you can do. This is because electrum shows you your future, thus you can react to it and change it, which creates another shadow, to which you can react and make another one etc.

I'd give this a hesitant possible, but I don't think it is nearly as definitive as y'all seem to think. The HoA Ch 3 reference; Vin was already facing an Inquisitor burning Atium. The WoB is also about Electrum's use in countering Atium. I would not agree this is "confirmed" until we get to see an Oracle buring Electrum without other influences. 

From a purely logical standpoint, many varied Shadows simply do not make sense, since the time "seen" is so brief that without something else interfering with access to Fortune; it seems most likely there would be one Electrum Shadow, and one (maybe two) "splits" if and when that shadow leads to you changing your planned action. Otherwise, since it does not seem to come with a similar increase in mental processing (like Atium, where you are processing shadows for everything around you), the likelihood of "many shadows" forming while the Misting stops to analyze them would probably result in the few seconds passing and making all of the shadows moot. 

 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'd give this a hesitant possible, but I don't think it is nearly as definitive as y'all seem to think. The HoA Ch 3 reference; Vin was already facing an Inquisitor burning Atium. The WoB is also about Electrum's use in countering Atium. I would not agree this is "confirmed" until we get to see an Oracle buring Electrum without other influences. 

From a purely logical standpoint, many varied Shadows simply do not make sense, since the time "seen" is so brief that without something else interfering with access to Fortune; it seems most likely there would be one Electrum Shadow, and one (maybe two) "splits" if and when that shadow leads to you changing your planned action. Otherwise, since it does not seem to come with a similar increase in mental processing (like Atium, where you are processing shadows for everything around you), the likelihood of "many shadows" forming while the Misting stops to analyze them would probably result in the few seconds passing and making all of the shadows moot. 

 

It says if the Inquisitor was burning atium. Vin can’t tell for sure, which shows that she knows from past experience that electrum always has many shadows.

I think it’s pretty definitive that electrum creates multiple shadows. But that’s actually a downside, because without practice, it’s nearly impossible to learn anything useful from the shadows, which is why Vin and Elend never used it for anything other than countering atium.

Edited 15 hours ago by Speeding Steelrunner

[+hwiles]

Open question: what would an Inquisitor who was fully under Ruin's control see when burning electrum? Many shadows, or one? If their actions are predetermined by their God, and they do not resist (as only Marsh seems to resist), do they have enough free-will to be capable of having more than one electrum shadow?

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

Open question: what would an Inquisitor who was fully under Ruin's control see when burning electrum? Many shadows, or one? If their actions are predetermined by their God, and they do not resist (as only Marsh seems to resist), do they have enough free-will to be capable of having more than one electrum shadow?

Interesting question!

I’m not sure. I would say it depends on whether the futuresight of electrum is channeled to Ruin in any way (even though he might not need it.) if it does, then I think there would be the same amount as normal, but otherwise, probably only one, because shadows only seem to split when someone sees the future and can change it. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Speeding Steelrunner

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Vin was already facing an Inquisitor burning Atium.

Untrue. They've never faced an Inquisitor burning Atium and they knew it - they cut open their stomachs. Inquisitors, just like Vin and Elend, had no Atium at their disposal. HoA ch 5:

Quote

"Maybe," Vin said, gripping the spike, standing up. "We'll need to cut open the stomach and see if it had atium."
"Maybe this one will finally have some." They always burned electrum as a precaution; so far, none of the Inquisitors they'd met had actually possessed any atium.

 

15 hours ago, Treamayne said:

From a purely logical standpoint, many varied Shadows simply do not make sense, since the time "seen" is so brief that without something else interfering with access to Fortune; it seems most likely there would be one Electrum Shadow, and one (maybe two) "splits" if and when that shadow leads to you changing your planned action. Otherwise, since it does not seem to come with a similar increase in mental processing (like Atium, where you are processing shadows for everything around you), the likelihood of "many shadows" forming while the Misting stops to analyze them would probably result in the few seconds passing and making all of the shadows moot. 

There is no need for analyzing shadows, the only thing that matters is that you can see your own shadow and have a potential to see it and thus react to it. You are interfering with your own Fortune. 

 

 

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

Open question: what would an Inquisitor who was fully under Ruin's control see when burning electrum? Many shadows, or one? If their actions are predetermined by their God, and they do not resist (as only Marsh seems to resist), do they have enough free-will to be capable of having more than one electrum shadow?

Hemalurgic control isn't like that - he's just issuing commands which they are following with their own actions. It's not predetermined. They should see many shadows as well. HoA ch 42:

Quote

Ruin came upon him, and he lost control of his body. He moved without knowing what he was going to do, following direct orders. Down the corridor. Don't attack the guards. In through the door.
Marsh shoved aside the two watching soldiers, kicking the door down and bursting into the antechamber.
Right. To the bedchamber.
Marsh was through the room in a heartbeat, the two soldiers belatedly screaming for help outside.
[...]
Fight him, Ruin said, but do not kill him. Make it a difficult battle, but allow him to feel that he's holding you off.
It was an odd request, but Marsh's mind was so directly controlled that he couldn't even pause to think about it. He could simply leap forward to attack.
It was harder than it seemed. He had to make sure to strike with the axe in ways that Penrod could block. Several times, he had to tap speed from one of his spikes—which doubled as a Feruchemical metalmind—to suddenly inch his axe in the right direction, lest he accidentally behead the king of Luthadel.
[...]
It wasn't long before a troop of some dozen guards burst into the chamber outside the bedroom, coming to aid their king.
Now, Ruin said. Act frightened, get ready to put the spike in, and prepare to flee out the window.
Marsh tapped speed and moved. Ruin guided his hand precisely as he slammed his left hand into Penrod's chest, driving the spike directly into the man's heart. Marsh heard Penrod scream, smiled at the sound, and leaped out the window

HoA ch 69:

Quote

Stand.
The command came wordlessly, but Marsh reacted instantly. And Ruin was back, controlling his body.