Breaths + Miscellaneous Investiture

[Trusk'our he/him]

When a person has more of Endowment's Investiture, you get access to the Heightenings, which is pretty neat. Reduced aging, health, heightend intuition of Awakening, all that sweet stuff.

However, we know for a fact that it's not just Breaths that can grant Heightenings, but at least some other general Investiture attached to a person can do the trick too, such as being a Dawnshard or a Dawnsliver. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444-dawnshard-annotations-reddit-qa/#e14339

The21stPotato

Can you tell us the equivalent Heightening she [Rysn] now has? She seems to be at least Third Heightening equivalent but I'm not sure how much else she has gained from holding a Dawnshard. Do ALL Dawnshards grant these Heightening-like effects?

Brandon Sanderson

All Dawnshards would grant the same effects in this regard.

As for specifics, I think I'll leave that as what is mentioned in the text, for now. (Sorry.)

I suppose my question for everyone then is, does only Investiture that is "unprogrammed" have Heightening effects, or does any Investiture do this? For example, would a Mistborn only need something like 34 Breaths to gain the First Heightening?

We do know that Mistborn and Steel Inquisitors lived a bit longer than average, as do Radiants, but that could just be because of A-pewter or Surgebinding health.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260-oathbringer-newcastle-signing/#e8766

Questioner

Longevity of Radiants. So, I, before [Oathbringer], thought that they were immortal. So, they're not?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Questioner

Do they have longer lifespans?

Brandon Sanderson

Slightly. They're very healthy, but it's not an unusually expanded lifespan.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/247-ancient-17s-qa/#e5532

Chaos (paraphrased)

How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while.

There was also that time Kaladin was once thought to have the Heightenings by a man in the Cognitive Realm (Riino, in OB), which hints at the possibility of programmed Investiture contributing to the Heightenings. 

What are people's thoughts on this? Personally, I'm leaning in the direction of powers stacking with general Investiture for determining Heightening effects, but if that's the case, why was Rashek still aging despite his Well-granted Allomancy?

It could just be that he had significantly fewer than 2,000 BEUs from it I suppose, which has a lot of interesting implications in and of itself, like how much you'd have to do to get Lord Ruler level effects from your Allomancy. 

Edited Thursday at 09:07 PM by Trusk'our

[AlastorBM He]

Hello! Let's see what I can contribute, Be careful, I will talk about mistborne warbreaker and dawnshard.

The effect that we see for example in Rysn is the product of containing a lot of investiture, just as it also happens with biochromatic breaths. Generally in different worlds from the cosmere to the investiture it is used but it is not stored in large quantities in your body, not even a radiant does, since its skin filters it little by little. Other examples are a mistborn who does not have the investiture within him, he only obtains it by burning metals or a ferruchemist, who only takes his attributes.

Regarding the topic of health or let's say youth, with the biochromatic breaths, regardless of the other investments you have, with reaching the Fifth Heightening you already have this effect, you are functionally immortal.

You can have almost infinite health or youth with other methods such as compounding gold and atium, but keep in mind that your spirit web knows how old you are, and you will need to compound more and more youth to reduce the pull. This is why Rashek was able to stay young for so long and is effective, at least for a medium-long time. a thousand years of this is a lot for a human but very very little for the cosmere

I will bring more references shortly, sorry I don't have them on hand.

In my opinion, the curious thing would be seeing this in an elantrine, although they have access to the dor through external means, their bodies have a lot of investiture and are functionally immortal as well, in fact they can survive crazy things like decapitations.

I hope I understood the question correctly  and correct me if I am wrong in any information.

Edit: Found the reference!

Quote

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Quote

Halel (paraphrased)

If I were to cut an Elantrian's head off, would it still live? Just the head, the body, both or perhaps neither of them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The body would grow a new head, as most of the soul is in that part.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Quote

The21stPotato

Can you tell us the equivalent Heightening she [Rysn] now has? She seems to be at least Third Heightening equivalent but I'm not sure how much else she has gained from holding a Dawnshard. Do ALL Dawnshards grant these Heightening-like effects?

Brandon Sanderson

All Dawnshards would grant the same effects in this regard.

As for specifics, I think I'll leave that as what is mentioned in the text, for now. (Sorry.)

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

About compounding

Spoiler

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 12:57 AM by AlastorBM

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I suppose my question for everyone then is, does only Investiture that is "unprogrammed" have Heightening effects, or does any Investiture do this?

It seems most investiture will do this. Please see your previous thread here where we discuss Riino's displayed Heightening effects (4th adn 5th).

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

but if that's the case, why was Rashek still aging despite his Well-granted Allomancy?

Because Scadrial and the Metallic Arts are Low Investiture. The changes to the Spiritweb are minor, and access to Preservation's power is only happening while Burning/Tapping (unlike Elantrians - who are always Connected to the Dor; Holding thousands of Breaths, which are always there and "working;" holding a Dawnshard; or being a Splinter like Yumi, etc.).  I would guess that it is less about what realm the investiture occupies (since examples for each, Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual are listed) and more about how much is actively helps for a long-term period. 

Spoiler

Edited for length and relevance:

Quote

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

 

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

So, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Heightening are all-but-confirmed for any high investiture system where the person stays invested long-term in at least one Realm. First and Second Heightening have less evidence and may be Endowment-Specific. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

35 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It seems most investiture will do this. Please see your previous thread here where we discuss Riino's displayed Heightening effects (4th adn 5th).

Oof, I forgot about that one.

35 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Because Scadrial and the Metallic Arts are Low Investiture. The changes to the Spiritweb are minor, and access to Preservation's power is only happening while Burning/Tapping (unlike Elantrians - who are always Connected to the Dor; Holding thousands of Breaths, which are always there and "working;" holding a Dawnshard; or being a Splinter like Yumi, etc.).

I still think that Metalborn must be notably more Invested than a standard person. Maybe not by Awakener levels, but surely at least one or two BEUs higher than normal. TLM even goes on to talk about the placement of Autonomy's Perpendicularity requiring (or at least benefiting from) having a high concentration of Investiture already present in the area from the Set's captured Allomancers.

And, if not particularly Invested with only their powers, what are Hemalurgic spikes grabbing?

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I suppose my question for everyone then is, does only Investiture that is "unprogrammed" have Heightening effects, or does any Investiture do this? For example, would a Mistborn only need something like 34 Breaths to gain the First Heightening?

Yes, because they are invested. Kaladin was mistaken by Riino for someone with Heightenings because of his invested status as a Radiant. OB ch 97:

Quote

“How? Impossible. Unless … you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi … A Surgebinder? It has begun again?”

Breaths are innate investiture, being a Mistborn, or Radiant also adds to your innate investiture. Allomancy comes from Preservation's fragment in your soul, which is like Breath, innate investiture. 

 

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

What are people's thoughts on this? Personally, I'm leaning in the direction of powers stacking with general Investiture for determining Heightening effects, but if that's the case, why was Rashek still aging despite his Well-granted Allomancy?

Because he was only a Feruchemist and an Allomancer, with some small Sliverism on top of that - that's nowhere near 2000 Breaths needed for agelessness. Sure, he was strong, but in the end that's not a lot of investiture. The First Heightening extends your life by a decade only, for someone who lived for at least 1024 years, a few decades are insignificant. Not to mention that Metallic Arts deal with little to no static/kinetic investiture. The only thing that prevented his soul from being pulled into the Beyond was his status of a Sliver, but this is described as a residue on your soul, he's not significantly invested because of that. It's just a trace amount of investiture. 

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Zas

So you talk about the residue a Shard leaves on a Sliver. So what does that residue have? Like what does it do? If anything?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, one thing it can include is that people capable of noticing Investiture, would know there is trace Investiture from that event.

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

 

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It could just be that he had significantly fewer than 2,000 BEUs from it I suppose, which has a lot of interesting implications in and of itself, like how much you'd have to do to get Lord Ruler level effects from your Allomancy. 

Drink some liquid investiture, or use the Bands

 

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I still think that Metalborn must be notably more Invested than a standard person. Maybe not by Awakener levels, but surely at least one or two BEUs higher than normal.

Yes, I think they are much higher invested than a normal person, dozens of BEUs at best - it makes sense because a Mistborn's soul stays for so long in CR, while normal people fade within seconds. However, that's still a relatively low amount of investiture. 

Edited Friday at 12:18 PM by alder24