Aluminum Hemalurgy

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

According to the Hemalurgy chart, an aluminum spike “removes all powers.” I see three possibilities for what that could mean.

1. An aluminum spike removes all powers from the victim[donor], but does not become charged. This fits with aluminum generally resisting Investiture, but it seems basically useless. Technically, you can spike someone without killing them, but if you’re going to bother doing that, why not spike out each power individually instead of destroying them all? If you do kill them, they’re dead, so they won’t be using those powers anyway. (Edit: to clarify, in this case, the only effect of aluminum Hemalurgy is to remove powers from the donor (i.e. the person that has a spike shoved through their heart, generally killing them.) The spike has no effect if you give it to someone else.)

2. After being stabbed through someone, an aluminum spike somehow becomes charged in such a way that putting it in someone else removes their powers (either temporarily or permanently.) This raises the obvious question, what is the spike being charged with? Also, aluminum doesn’t seem like it should be able to be charged at all (although aluminum Feruchemy raises the same question.)

3. Without being stabbed through someone or charged in any way, aluminum removes powers from anyone stabbed with it. This seems unlikely, because it’s then barely acting like a Hemalurgic spike at all. Furthermore, we know that a Thug or Bloodmaker can’t heal a wound around aluminum, but that implies that they still can heal in general, so their powers aren’t being removed.

I’m honestly leaning towards option 1. It fits best with what we know about aluminum. Also, consider that the Hemalurgy chart describes what the spikes do to the donor, not the recipient (eg. “Steals strength.”) So if aluminum follows the same pattern, then it should remove powers from the donor. This would make it effectively useless. Hopefully this isn’t the answer, but I’m thinking it is.

Edited July 18 by Speeding Steelrunner

[Quantus he/him]

42 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

According to the Hemalurgy chart, an aluminum spike “removes all powers.” I see three possibilities for what that could mean.

1. An aluminum spike removes all powers from the victim, but does not become charged. This fits with aluminum generally resisting Investiture, but it seems basically useless. Technically, you can spike someone without killing them, but if you’re going to bother doing that, why not spike out each power that they have instead of destroying them all? If you do kill them, they’re dead, so they won’t be using those powers anyway.

Use Case:   Aluminum Earring implanted in everyone sent to the hypothetical Superpowered Prison, they are depowered in a permanent but reversable way.  

 

42 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

2. After being stabbed through someone, an aluminum spike somehow becomes charged in such a way that putting it in someone else removes their powers (either temporarily or permanently.) This raises the obvious question, what is the spike being charged with? Also, aluminum doesn’t seem like it should be able to be charged at all (although aluminum Feruchemy raises the same question.)

Yup, either #1 is correct or the Metallic Arts are the only known magic that can Invest Aluminum (Hemalurgically and/or Feruchemically).  It's already the only known way to Destroy Aluminum with an investiture-based effect (the aluminum Burn of an allomancer).  

42 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

3. Without being stabbed through someone or charged in any way, aluminum removes powers from anyone stabbed with it. This seems unlikely, because it’s then barely acting like a Hemalurgic spike at all. Furthermore, we know that a Thug or Bloodmaker can’t heal a wound around aluminum, but that implies that they still can heal in general, so their powers aren’t being removed.

This is basically confirmed to not be the case, as you say it doesnt shut down Powers without the Intent+Bind Point elements of Hemalurgy involved to make it bridge Realms and interact with the Spiritweb directly.  

42 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I’m honestly leaning towards option 1. It fits best with what we know about aluminum. Also, consider that the Hemalurgy chart describes what the spikes do to the donor, not the recipient (eg. “Steals strength.”) So if aluminum follows the same pattern, then it should remove powers from the donor. This would make it effectively useless. Hopefully this isn’t the answer, but I’m thinking it is.

Agreed, I think it's #1, but I think there are a lot of reasons that will become useful (if not exactly pleasant) in the later cosmere.  Unlike the other known hemalurgic effects, it doesnt care which Bind Point is used, so you can implant the spike into non-lethal locations, and if it doent get charged it doesn rip anything off when removed.  This would let you shut down powers and potentially prevent new ones from forming, and if that includes preventing Nahel or Luhel Bonds from forming it could be a decent protection against the less friendly Aethers.  It might even block prayers from reaching the Dragons.  No clue how it might interact with Breaths...

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

34 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Use Case:   Aluminum Earring implanted in everyone sent to the hypothetical Superpowered Prison, they are depowered in a permanent but reversable way.  

 

Yup, either #1 is correct or the Metallic Arts are the only known magic that can Invest Aluminum (Hemalurgically and/or Feruchemically).  It's already the only known way to Destroy Aluminum with an investiture-based effect (the aluminum Burn of an allomancer).  

This is basically confirmed to not be the case, as you say it doesnt shut down Powers without the Intent+Bind Point elements of Hemalurgy involved to make it bridge Realms and interact with the Spiritweb directly.  

Agreed, I think it's #1, but I think there are a lot of reasons that will become useful (if not exactly pleasant) in the later cosmere.  Unlike the other known hemalurgic effects, it doesnt care which Bind Point is used, so you can implant the spike into non-lethal locations, and if it doent get charged it doesn rip anything off when removed.  This would let you shut down powers and potentially prevent new ones from forming, and if that includes preventing Nahel or Luhel Bonds from forming it could be a decent protection against the less friendly Aethers.  It might even block prayers from reaching the Dragons.  No clue how it might interact with Breaths...

I may not have explained possibility #1 well enough, my bad. What I was trying to say is that instead of stealing a power from the donor, it just destroys all their abilities instead. Normally, a person dies when you spike them, in which case the aluminum spike isn’t going to do anything special—they’re dead and you get no charged spikes out of it. If you do it non-lethally, they survive, but lose all their powers permanently. In either case, nothing happens to the aluminum spike, and it should be reusable.

If your goal us to remove someone’s powers but not kill them, then you could just use multiple spikes instead to get charged spikes out of the process as well, making the aluminum route a complete waste (although it could be more humane.)

So, for a prison scenario, you could non-lethally spike them, destroying their powers, but they would be permanently lost, and the prisoners would each be left with a soul wound.

What you’re describing sounds more like option 3, where aluminum removes powers from the recipient.

Edited July 18 by Speeding Steelrunner

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

1. An aluminum spike removes all powers from the victim, but does not become charged. This fits with aluminum generally resisting Investiture, but it seems basically useless. Technically, you can spike someone without killing them, but if you’re going to bother doing that, why not spike out each power that they have instead of destroying them all? If you do kill them, they’re dead, so they won’t be using those powers anyway.

I believe that's how H-aluminum works. It's just an uncharged aluminum spike, placed and left in the proper binding point that prevents you from accessing all of your powers either by destroying them (it's a massive damage to your spirit web, I think that's unlikely), or disrupting them and preventing you from accessing it as long as you have that spike (like primer cube charged with aluminum works - WoB). There is no donor, only a recipient.

And it has a lot of uses. Killing isn't always an option. A lawful country doesn't have to have the death penalty, many countries in the world don't allow the execution of criminals, no matter their crime. Removing their powers in the most humane way possible is essential for their proper and safe imprisonment. Stealing their powers isn't a good option as it permanently wounds their Spirit Web and leaves them in the worse then Drab state (WoB1, WoB2). If you have a Mistborn that's 16 spikes which would shred his soul to pieces - that's just making them permanently handicapped. Giving them a single aluminum spike, placed in the point from which removal is deadly, is the best way to deal with this problem. Additionally, I believe that powers aren't permanently removed with this spike, they are gone as long as you have this spike in your body, once you remove it, you once again can access your powers. So if somebody needs to have their powers removed for a limited period of time, then just give them an aluminum earring. You can have a secret criminal underground meeting where because you don't trust each other, you make everyone wear such aluminum earring (SoS prologue would have been avoided this way). You can set up a non-Allomancy zone in the senate building to make sure nobody is using any emotional Allomancy or anything like that. Sure, primer cubes are better, but north don't have Harmonium yet, there is a limited number of aluminum gnats - giving everyone an aluminum earring is just easier, especially that aluminum will soon become really cheap.

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I believe that's how H-aluminum works. It's just an uncharged aluminum spike, placed and left in the proper binding point that prevents you from accessing all of your powers either by destroying them (it's a massive damage to your spirit web, I think that's unlikely), or disrupting them and preventing you from accessing it as long as you have that spike (like primer cube charged with aluminum works - WoB). There is no donor, only a recipient.

And it has a lot of uses. Killing isn't always an option. A lawful country doesn't have to have the death penalty, many countries in the world don't allow the execution of criminals, no matter their crime. Removing their powers in the most humane way possible is essential for their proper and safe imprisonment. Stealing their powers isn't a good option as it permanently wounds their Spirit Web and leaves them in the worse then Drab state (WoB1, WoB2). If you have a Mistborn that's 16 spikes which would shred his soul to pieces - that's just making them permanently handicapped. Giving them a single aluminum spike, placed in the point from which removal is deadly, is the best way to deal with this problem. Additionally, I believe that powers aren't permanently removed with this spike, they are gone as long as you have this spike in your body, once you remove it, you once again can access your powers. So if somebody needs to have their powers removed for a limited period of time, then just give them an aluminum earring. You can have a secret criminal underground meeting where because you don't trust each other, you make everyone wear such aluminum earring (SoS prologue would have been avoided this way). You can set up a non-Allomancy zone in the senate building to make sure nobody is using any emotional Allomancy or anything like that. Sure, primer cubes are better, but north don't have Harmonium yet, there is a limited number of aluminum gnats - giving everyone an aluminum earring is just easier, especially that aluminum will soon become really cheap.

It seems I wasn’t clear about how I envisioned option 1 working, so I apologize for that. I made an edit to clarify. A concise way to summarize what each of the options are is: 1 has only a donor and no recipient, 2 has a donor and recipient, like normal Hemalurgy, and 3 has only a recipient.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There is no donor, only a recipient.

This is actually more like option 3, which I agree is far from useless. The fact that it behaves very little like normal Hemalurgy (since it uses uncharged spikes) does give me pause on this being the correct answer.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

According to the Hemalurgy chart, an aluminum spike “removes all powers.” I see three possibilities for what that could mean.

1. An aluminum spike removes all powers from the victim[donor], but does not become charged. This fits with aluminum generally resisting Investiture, but it seems basically useless. Technically, you can spike someone without killing them, but if you’re going to bother doing that, why not spike out each power individually instead of destroying them all? If you do kill them, they’re dead, so they won’t be using those powers anyway. (Edit: to clarify, in this case, the only effect of aluminum Hemalurgy is to remove powers from the donor (i.e. the person that has a spike shoved through their heart, generally killing them.) The spike has no effect if you give it to someone else.)

I believe this is how it works; you spike someone with aluminum, which excises all of their powers (or, perhaps it has the ability to do that like Atium but only targets one at a time based on the Bindpoint, but the wording makes it sound more like Lerasium Hemalurgy only for powers rather than attributes), but because it's aluminum it can't hold or donate a Hemalurgic charge so the Investiture dissipates into the SR.

I'm also of the train of thought that aluminum Feruchemy doesn't keep an Identity charge in it, but it can be used as a key just like with Allomancy to start up the process of accessing the Investiture. Basically, my thinking is you can blank your Identity but can't actually tap.

But going back to the idea of Hemalurgic aluminum @alder24 and @Quantus, I find it incredibly unlikely that an aluminum spike suppresses powers while implanted in a recipient's body, as that's far removed from any way Hemalurgy has been seen used or how aluminum's mechanics seem to function. Honestly, silver implants might work better for that, even if not technically magical in nature as disruption of Investiture is its whole thing. 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I believe this is how it works; you spike someone with aluminum, which excises all of their powers (or, perhaps it has the ability to do that like Atium but only targets one at a time based on the Bindpoint, but the wording makes it sound more like Lerasium Hemalurgy only for powers rather than attributes), but because it's aluminum it can't hold or donate a Hemalurgic charge so the Investiture dissipates into the SR.

I would assume that it removes all powers regardless of bindpoint. It seems that they were pretty careful with the wording on the hemalurgy table, so I don't think it would be a mistake that aluminuum says "all" and not "any."

Does the use of "ability" for lerasium instead of "power" imply that lerasium steals all the basic attributes like strength, senses, etc. as well as all Invested powers?

[Trusk'our he/him]

38 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I would assume that it removes all powers regardless of bindpoint. It seems that they were pretty careful with the wording on the hemalurgy table, so I don't think it would be a mistake that aluminuum says "all" and not "any."

Some Bindpoint probably needs to be hit, but if it truly targets all powers that an individual has (which as you said the wording seems to strongly indicate) then you'd only need to hit one in order to remove all powers. We don't know exactly how large a Bindpoint's area of accessibility is yet, but I suspect that this wouldn't be too hard to pull off.

40 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Does the use of "ability" for lerasium instead of "power" imply that lerasium steals all the basic attributes like strength, senses, etc. as well as all Invested powers?

Almost certainly. It would also be somewhat strange for Atium to only steal one power while Lerasium took all, which from a meta perspective helps push the idea of Lerasium stealing innate human attributes rather than Metallic powers.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

It seems I wasn’t clear about how I envisioned option 1 working, so I apologize for that. I made an edit to clarify. A concise way to summarize what each of the options are is: 1 has only a donor and no recipient, 2 has a donor and recipient, like normal Hemalurgy, and 3 has only a recipient.

This is actually more like option 3, which I agree is far from useless. The fact that it behaves very little like normal Hemalurgy (since it uses uncharged spikes) does give me pause on this being the correct answer.

Yes, that's option 3, I see it now.

17 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Furthermore, we know that a Thug or Bloodmaker can’t heal a wound around aluminum, but that implies that they still can heal in general, so their powers aren’t being removed.

That's because in this case it isn't a Hemalurgic spike. You need an intent and a precise injection into a specific binding point, without this aluminum will act just like a normal piece of metal.

 

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

But going back to the idea of Hemalurgic aluminum @alder24 and @Quantus, I find it incredibly unlikely that an aluminum spike suppresses powers while implanted in a recipient's body, as that's far removed from any way Hemalurgy has been seen used or how aluminum's mechanics seem to function. Honestly, silver implants might work better for that, even if not technically magical in nature as disruption of Investiture is its whole thing. 

The one single reason why I'm not so sold on the idea that aluminum spikes destroy all powers in the donor is that this will literally destroy most of their soul, rendering them way worse than a Drab. It will cripple them to the point of possibly breaking their mind and maybe even killing them, even if you drive a spike through a non-lethal binding point - the damage done to the soul would be enormous. That's way too much and it offers little to no practical applications. If you're gonna kill them anyway, just use a normal spike and steal something from them. 

If F-aluminum works by just blanking the identity, with no tapping, which is reversible as soon as you stop storing in the metalmind, then it's similar to how I envision an aluminum spike to work - it removes your power for as long as you have the spike in you. This offers a lot of potential uses for the spike, with a limited amount of damage done to the soul. This would differentiate an aluminum spike from normal power-stealing spikes and give a reason to use it. 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I would assume that it removes all powers regardless of bindpoint. It seems that they were pretty careful with the wording on the hemalurgy table, so I don't think it would be a mistake that aluminuum says "all" and not "any."

Binding points should still matter, you always have to be precise where you insert any spike, otherwise it just won't work, or you risk stealing something else. It should still apply to aluminum, if you place the spike in the wrong spot in a donor, you won't remove any power, if you place it wrongly in a recipient, it won't work as well. But there should be several binding points for it, so you probably can choose where to put it, if you're knowledgeable enough.

39 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Does the use of "ability" for lerasium instead of "power" imply that lerasium steals all the basic attributes like strength, senses, etc. as well as all Invested powers?

Lerasium steals only attributes, not powers. You can't steal Allomancy and other invested powers with it, but you can most likely steal everything at once - all strength, senses, mental speed, memories etc. from a donor, trapped in one spike to be granted all at once. 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's because in this case it isn't a Hemalurgic spike. You need an intent and a precise injection into a specific binding point, without this aluminum will act just like a normal piece of metal.

Normally the Intent is required when you make the spike (by killing someone), but as this would be a special case I'm willing to concede that this could be possible.

 

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Binding points should still matter, you always have to be precise where you insert any spike, otherwise it just won't work, or you risk stealing something else. It should still apply to aluminum, if you place the spike in the wrong spot in a donor, you won't remove any power, if you place it wrongly in a recipient, it won't work as well. But there should be several binding points for it, so you probably can choose where to put it, if you're knowledgeable enough.

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Yeah, I'm just saying that you can't get a different effect by using a different bindpoint--it either removes all the powers or does nothing.

 

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Lerasium steals only attributes, not powers. You can't steal Allomancy and other invested powers with it, but you can most likely steal everything at once - all strength, senses, mental speed, memories etc. from a donor, trapped in one spike to be granted all at once. 

Interesting. That seems completely pointless then. If you have enough lerasium to make a big ol' spike, you're much better off just burning it than using it to steal all the attributes. Although, I suppose that even if it stole powers, it would still be a waste unless the person you were spiking was a Fullborn or something.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Interesting. That seems completely pointless then. If you have enough lerasium to make a big ol' spike, you're much better off just burning it than using it to steal all the attributes. Although, I suppose that even if it stole powers, it would still be a waste unless the person you were spiking was a Fullborn or something.

Yes, it's a bit wasteful, but you don't have to make a big spike, a small earring will be fine too. Still, it's better to just burn it. Even Brandon admitted it's not that useful in Hemalurgy:

Spoiler

Questioner 1

What would happen if you used lerasium as a spike for Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh lerasium as a spike for Hemalurgy? Um lerasium as a spike for Hemalurgy--

Questioner 1

Would it work or would it just not work?

Brandon Sanderson

No I mean it would work--

Questioner 1

If you were to place a lerasium spike would you transform into a full Mistborn as opposed to--

Questioner 2

Well it can also steal powers, not just grant them, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, right. The thing about it is you're trying to Invest something that is already very Invested, which always has weird effects. So while you could do it, it would be a gross waste of the potential. It's like using a nuclear bomb as a paperweight. It is functional but--

[...]

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

If F-aluminum works by just blanking the identity, with no tapping, which is reversible as soon as you stop storing in the metalmind, then it's similar to how I envision an aluminum spike to work - it removes your power for as long as you have the spike in you. This offers a lot of potential uses for the spike, with a limited amount of damage done to the soul. This would differentiate an aluminum spike from normal power-stealing spikes and give a reason to use it. 

I don't know that removing all powers would destroy one's mind. It would definitely be bad though, worse than being a Drab. 

And, just because it doesn't allow for much practical application doesn't necessarily mean that isn't how it works. 

Perhaps H-aluminum will become one of the more direct Investiture counters available; even if Fullborn can be created in Scadrial's future, if any good and slightly lucky shot can strip you of all your powers, you're done.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

If F-aluminum works by just blanking the identity, with no tapping, which is reversible as soon as you stop storing in the metalmind, then it's similar to how I envision an aluminum spike to work - it removes your power for as long as you have the spike in you. This offers a lot of potential uses for the spike, with a limited amount of damage done to the soul. This would differentiate an aluminum spike from normal power-stealing spikes and give a reason to use it. 

That's Feruchemy though, not Hemalurgy, which has always worked by tearing off pieces of Spiritweb, not suppressing them.

If you really wanted to use Feruchemical power to suppress Investiture-

TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

Make an advanced Nicrosilmind to make them store access to their powers, making them unusable while the Metalminds are in place.

 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't know that removing all powers would destroy one's mind. It would definitely be bad though, worse than being a Drab. 

It breaks your soul apart and a broken soul can cause madness. People with all their powers removed would have their spirit web hanging by a thread and be extra susceptible to all kinds of mental instabilities. It would be way worse than just surviving a normal spiking. 

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

And, just because it doesn't allow for much practical application doesn't necessarily mean that isn't how it works. 

True, but it's just a waste. I expect more, something unique from a unique metal which should have some interesting applications - more than just destroying spirit webs and leaving people crippled. Aluminum will soon be very common all across Cosmere and if it's so powerful in Hemalurgy, then it takes just a few determined individuals to render the entire Cosmere powerless (or at least the most powerful individuals) - why would you need SWAT team made out of Allomancers when you can have a few guys with spike-guns and aluminum? The solution for every single villain with powers would be "just spike them with aluminum," to the point it might create a plot hole. It would be way too powerful compared to how accessible it will be in the near future. 

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

That's Feruchemy though, not Hemalurgy, which has always worked by tearing off pieces of Spiritweb, not suppressing them.

Yes, it's Feruchemy and I'm making a point here that if that's how F-aluminum works, then it's a completely unique metal that doesn't allow for any tapping and blanks everything, unlike all other metals in Feruchemy. And Hemalurgy requires a charge spike to make an effect, but we both agree aluminum can't be charged.

Aluminum is always different, it has disruptive properties but it doesn't kill or destroy investiture. In Hemalurgy it might be more aligned with the nature of Hemalurgy and rip spirit webs to pieces - what you're suggesting it's possible - but if not then its properties will simply disrupt inner workings of your spirit web, preventing you from accessing power, but not destroying them.

And that leaves us with more potential - if you get a spike with aluminum in your heart, you can't remove it without dying (you can't even use any medallion to heal during that process, because you'll drop dead as soon as the spike is out and you can't tap it while the spike is still in you), if it's just an earring, you're fine. So you still can have permanent effects of the aluminum you're proposing, without all the consequences it would have for the greater Cosmere and the victim's soul..

In the end all we have are speculations and I think both options are equally likely to be true. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It breaks your soul apart and a broken soul can cause madness. People with all their powers removed would have their spirit web hanging by a thread and be extra susceptible to all kinds of mental instabilities. It would be way worse than just surviving a normal spiking. 

I think that's a bit extreme (we haven't seen Inquisitors go insane even with 20+ spikes piercing their Spiritwebs, though admittedly this is in regard to recipients, not donors), but really we'd need more examples in the series before anything conclusive can be said.

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

True, but it's just a waste.

Oh definitely. 

If my suggestion is truly how it works then other types of spikes would almost certainly be better, just like how Lerasium in Hemalurgy is a colossal waste of potential, or how A-gold, while unique, is pretty terrible for most practical situations. 

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Aluminum will soon be very common all across Cosmere and if it's so powerful in Hemalurgy, then it takes just a few determined individuals to render the entire Cosmere powerless (or at least the most powerful individuals) - why would you need SWAT team made out of Allomancers when you can have a few guys with spike-guns and aluminum? The solution for every single villain with powers would be "just spike them with aluminum," to the point it might create a plot hole. It would be way too powerful compared to how accessible it will be in the near future. 

That is an excellent point; if aluminum really can just destroy all powers and it's a cheap metal, it would screw with the plans of any highly Invested being who wanted to be superior over others.

Some possibilities I could see for this: 

General Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

It seems that individuals with extraordinary advantages over the common folk is closing; TLR was nearly unstoppable and was able to rule as a demigod on Scadrial for a full millennia. 

The Fused were each able to survive for multiple millenia, even having their souls severed by Shardblades. 

Elantrians were considered invincible by their people, at least until the Dakhor discovered a bone shape to counter Aons.

However, Investiture suppressing fabrials, primer cubes, Unsealed Metalminds, silver weapons, and anti-Tones are all weakening those powers, at least in terms of combat superiority.

Aluminum alone is able to completely negate Emotional Allomancy, can block the vorpal edge of Shardblades, can't be sensed via future sight, and prevents Invested healing. 

It's already screwing up the potential for highly Invested beings trying to become gods among their peers. I honestly don't think being able to strip away powers on top of that is going to unbalance things based on the way things are going. 

In fact, real power in the Cosmere's future is likely to lie with factions and those who have great political or financial power rather than those with high amounts of Investiture. 

For example, it may be that villains in such a scenario would be the big CEO of a company monopolizing Unsealed Metalminds rather than another Fullborn like TLR.

Plus, there is the matter of them requiring a correct Bindpoint to hit, which is really hard to do, especially if Fortune and Steelsight are out of the equation. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And that leaves us with more potential - if you get a spike with aluminum in your heart, you can't remove it without dying (you can't even use any medallion to heal during that process, because you'll drop dead as soon as the spike is out and you can't tap it while the spike is still in you), if it's just an earring, you're fine. So you still can have permanent effects of the aluminum you're proposing, without all the consequences it would have for the greater Cosmere and the victim's soul..

I personally think that there's enough versatility through other methods to achieve this end goal without Hemalurgic aluminum even getting involved.

It could be that aluminum Hemalurgy is mostly a dump-power, like gold or aluminum Allomancy; useful in a few specific situations, but largely suboptimal. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

In the end all we have are speculations and I think both options are equally likely to be true. 

 

It's definitely good to have multiple perspectives on the matter, even if that means they must disagree. Especially since it all really is just speculation at this point. 

Plus, it's quite enjoyable to discuss such topics with another person who's clearly put in some real thought into the given topic, and for that I thank you, friend. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that's a bit extreme (we haven't seen Inquisitors go insane even with 20+ spikes piercing their Spiritwebs, though admittedly this is in regard to recipients, not donors), but really we'd need more examples in the series before anything conclusive can be said.

Haven't we? And their unnatural liking of massacring people with their axes? They literally can't stop themselves once they start - even Marsh (and Ruin) couldn't stop himself after killing Goradel from turning his body into a mush. And Brandon said, that some inquisitors burn up fast, which I think might suggest that some suffer mentally more than others.

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

It all comes down to how Hemalurgy works. A spike always hurts you. It always cracks your soul. And while normally a spike is filled with investiture and that investiture is filling the crack it created (not perfectly though because it still allows others to enter, unlike cracks filled by Allomancy when people are Snapped), thus mitigating the strain those cracks puts on the soul (and making them more invested), in the case of an aluminum spike, which removes all powers (and investiture) from the spirit web, it literally rips of a huge chunk of the spirit web and leaves the hole empty. The more powers there is, the bigger the portion of the spirit web that's excised, the bigger the hole left in the spirit web.

People who are mentally ill have their soul broken in the similar way to what Hemalurgy is doing. The more broken their soul is, the more susceptible to mental instability they are. Because of those cracks, mentally unstable people are easily influenced by Ruin as he can get through them, just like he can get through cracks caused by spikes. Hemalurgy ALWAYS hurts you!

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

And we have examples of donors suffering because of their loss of investiture - Drabs. They often suffer through disease and are more prone to depression, which is a mental illness. Getting even bigger chunk of your soul violently ripped out of your spirit web would be even more damaging than giving up your Breath.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna's Thoughts on Being a Drab

A lot of what happened to Vivenna—how she saw the world and how she acted—was influenced by being a Drab. As I've said before, the Hallandren aren't right when they say losing your Breath does nothing to you. Most Drabs struggle with depression, and the fact that they're almost always sick doesn't help either.

And so, Vivenna's time on the streets was artificially made more dreary and terrible than it truly was. Being a Drab, being sick, the shock of being betrayed—these things combined to give you the person you saw in the previous two chapters. It's a way to cut a corner. I wanted Vivenna to feel like she'd been on the streets for months, but for it only to have been a few weeks.

She is able to make her hair change colors again. This is a representation of the fact that she has started to pull out of the nightmare. She's slightly in control of her world again, and the roughest time for her has passed. There's also a clue in that hair, one that Vasher mentions. Because of it, and her heritage, and something very mysterious in the past, every member of the royal line has a fraction of a divine Returned Breath in them. That makes it much easier for them to learn to Awaken than a normal person.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 22, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vivenna at the Safe House

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul, and without one, you are more prone to depression, you get sick much more easily, and you're generally more irritable.

I included this mention here because I'm betting that most people who read the book side with Denth and assume he's right when he talks about these things. But don't be too judgmental about the Idrians—yes, they're biased, but the Hallandren are too in a lot of ways. It's not as simple as one side always being right and the other wrong. In this case, the Idrian teachings are correct, and most Hallandren are looking for justifications when they say that giving up one's Breath isn't all that damaging to them.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 26, 2010)

 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

General Cosmere spoilers:

  Hide contents

It seems that individuals with extraordinary advantages over the common folk is closing; TLR was nearly unstoppable and was able to rule as a demigod on Scadrial for a full millennia. 

The Fused were each able to survive for multiple millenia, even having their souls severed by Shardblades. 

Elantrians were considered invincible by their people, at least until the Dakhor discovered a bone shape to counter Aons.

However, Investiture suppressing fabrials, primer cubes, Unsealed Metalminds, silver weapons, and anti-Tones are all weakening those powers, at least in terms of combat superiority.

Aluminum alone is able to completely negate Emotional Allomancy, can block the vorpal edge of Shardblades, can't be sensed via future sight, and prevents Invested healing. 

It's already screwing up the potential for highly Invested beings trying to become gods among their peers. I honestly don't think being able to strip away powers on top of that is going to unbalance things based on the way things are going. 

In fact, real power in the Cosmere's future is likely to lie with factions and those who have great political or financial power rather than those with high amounts of Investiture. 

For example, it may be that villains in such a scenario would be the big CEO of a company monopolizing Unsealed Metalminds rather than another Fullborn like TLR.

Plus, there is the matter of them requiring a correct Bindpoint to hit, which is really hard to do, especially if Fortune and Steelsight are out of the equation.

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, the gap between invested and non-invested individuals is getting smaller and smaller with each new book and aluminum plays a big role in it. However my main concern is that aluminum will become a total roadblock, not just an obstacle to overcome, which it currently is. Aluminum should be a problem to solve, not a solution for every situation.

• Aluminum can stop emotional Allomancy, but by doing that you don't know someone tries to play with your emotions, which is valuable information on its own.
• Suppression fabrials or primer cubes are stationary and you can just walk out of them to access your powers again.
• Yes aluminum guns or bullets can't be steelpushed, but it doesn't affect any other metals which still can be pushed. It limits your choices but also encourages your creativity. 
• Aluminum can stop a Shardblade cut, but it can't stop a Shardhammer swing or a Shardplate punch.
• Aluminum can't be Soulcast or Forged, but the air or stone around it surely can be.

As aluminum will become more and more comon and affordable, the impact of people with invested arts will inevitable be lessened - but we also see the emargence of mecahnical way of accessing investiture, like Malwish medallions or Fabrials. They are balancing out aluminum's avaibility. Yes, it would be easier to deal with Metalborn, but there will be 10 times more of them. Like Kelsier used to say, there is a push for every pull.

And that's why I'm concerned about aluminum spikes destroying all powers because it threatens to break this balance that's already established. Yes, it's hard to pinpoint a binding point with a spike, but once you do it there is nothing that can be done. There is no counteraction. Nothing that pulls back on the system. It's a weapon greater than even a Shardblade is. And that's a threat. 

Of course it can be done this way with the balance in mind, one of the simplest solutions is to keep Hemalurgy from becoming a public knowledge (which seems to be inconsistent with TLM ending). The threat of overusing aluminum spikes will be gone simply because there aren't many people that know it can be done. However if a skilled Hemalurgist were to be encountered, we're risking creating a plot hole in the story, if he doesn't use an aluminum spike. It would be such a powerful solution that it won't make any sense not to use it. On the other hand, using it is too simple of a solution. Imagine Wax knowing about it and using it in the very first encounter with Miles on the train in AoL - the book would have ended right then and there with Miles getting aluminum between his ribs and losing god status. 

And because of those concerns I have, I think it makes more sense from the storytelling perspective that aluminum does not permanently remove all powers. This just creates better potential for action and generates a more thrilling story, which can't be ended with aluminum spikes every time. However, mechanically speaking it makes sense for aluminum spike to work both ways, with a slight edge given to destroying investiture side, because of how Hemalurgy works in general.

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Plus, it's quite enjoyable to discuss such topics with another person who's clearly put in some real thought into the given topic, and for that I thank you, friend. 

It indeed is enjoyable  

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

I think that's a bit extreme (we haven't seen Inquisitors go insane even with 20+ spikes piercing their Spiritwebs

Under the Lord Ruler, Inquisitors had 9 - 11 spikes, but Ruin gave them more. I believe Marsh has 22 to be exact.

[+hwiles]

Playing devil's advocate here...buuuut...the hemalurgic chart was specifically outlined for Inquisitors, not human beings in general and is labeled appropriately as such. While it seems like (thus far) spikes of a given metal behave uniformly between human beings in most cases, exceptions already exist in world on page (Koloss/Kandra/those crazy dog monsters/ect.)...

 

How shocked would we be if aluminum hemalurgy only "removed all powers" when performed on a hemalurgic construct or machine and did something else, or almost nothing at all, under the majority of other circumstances circumstances (like aluminum Allomancy) for normal people, animals, and creatures?

 

My thought is that Isaac may have been simply trying to reveal a silver bullet (forgive the wordplay sorry lol) against inquisitors, not trying to foretell a future super weapon. IE: If inquisitors come back in era 4, they will...bear an extreme and easily exploitable vulnerability, buuuut...swat teams of allomancers shall not share such a weakness.

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

2 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Playing devil's advocate here...buuuut...the hemalurgic chart was specifically outlined for Inquisitors, not human beings in general and is labeled appropriately as such. While it seems like (thus far) spikes of a given metal behave uniformly between human beings in most cases, exceptions already exist in world on page (Koloss/Kandra/those crazy dog monsters/ect.)...

Koloss, Kandra, and Hemalurgic chimeras don't use the same metals for their spikes as Inquisitors. Inquisitors only use spikes that steal Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, while Koloss use iron spikes (which steal strength), Kandra use iron (strength), tin (senses), zinc (emotional fortitude), and copper (intelligence) spikes, and chimeras use trellium. I'm pretty sure that when it says it is focused on Inquisitors it just means the placements it shows, but that the metals still do the same thing, because it has a lot of metals on it that Inquisitors didn't use.

[+hwiles]

24 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Koloss, Kandra, and Hemalurgic chimeras don't use the same metals for their spikes as Inquisitors. Inquisitors only use spikes that steal Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, while Koloss use iron spikes (which steal strength), Kandra use iron (strength), tin (senses), zinc (emotional fortitude), and copper (intelligence) spikes, and chimeras use trellium. I'm pretty sure that when it says it is focused on Inquisitors it just means the placements it shows, but that the metals still do the same thing, because it has a lot of metals on it that Inquisitors didn't use.

What I just heard is that: it would be a surprising, interesting, and impactful twist requiring very little on screen clarification regarding mechanics for aluminum hemalurgy to be almost as narrow, esoteric, and specialized in scope/usage as aluminum Allomancy and Feruchemy...aaaannnnndddd...the symmetry of such a trinity does have some divine appeal to it when I think about it further...

Like I said, just playing devil's advocate; if we see a sandmaster get his hand poked while handling a piece of cheap wire in the space age and suddenly become crippled or insane I shall gladly fall back in line with the options up top.

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

3 minutes ago, hwiles said:

What I just heard is that: it would be a surprising, interesting, and impactful twist requiring very little on screen clarification regarding mechanics for aluminum hemalurgy to be almost as narrow, esoteric, and specialized in scope/usage as aluminum Allomancy and Feruchemy...aaaannnnndddd...the symmetry of such a trinity does have some divine appeal to it when I think about it further...

Like I said, just playing devil's advocate; if we see a sandmaster get his hand poked while handling a piece of cheap wire in the space age and suddenly become crippled or insane I shall gladly fall back in line with the options up top.

Okay, sure. I'm just very doubtful that that would be the case, because we haven't seen any other metals have different uses for different beings.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 7/19/2024 at 3:49 PM, alder24 said:

Haven't we? And their unnatural liking of massacring people with their axes?

What? That's not how people usually think? 

okay, but in all seriousness, that's a good point. 

As a side note I do wonder though, were Inquisitors influenced by Ruin's Intent more strongly during the time of the Final Empire?

It's mentioned in TLM Ars Arcanum that Ruin was pressing on the fabric of Scadrial at the time, and while Marsh was quickly corrupted after the fall of TLR (his social and emotional skills being visibility impared as well as his desire to kill enflared) he doesn't seem to have any issues with mental stability or morality afterwards. 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:49 PM, alder24 said:

And Brandon said, that some inquisitors burn up fast, which I think might suggest that some suffer mentally more than others.

  Hide contents

Chaos (paraphrased)

How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

Could be similar to how Elantrian lifespans work, but with less Investiture to go off of so there's no true immortality. 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:49 PM, alder24 said:

 

It all comes down to how Hemalurgy works. A spike always hurts you. It always cracks your soul. And while normally a spike is filled with investiture and that investiture is filling the crack it created (not perfectly though because it still allows others to enter, unlike cracks filled by Allomancy when people are Snapped), thus mitigating the strain those cracks puts on the soul (and making them more invested), in the case of an aluminum spike, which removes all powers (and investiture) from the spirit web, it literally rips of a huge chunk of the spirit web and leaves the hole empty. The more powers there is, the bigger the portion of the spirit web that's excised, the bigger the hole left in the spirit web.

 

I hadn't thought about that, but that makes a lot of sense. 

Alright, you've convinced me that there would be significantly greater consequences for the donor than the recipient, especially when considering their mental stability. 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:49 PM, alder24 said:

As aluminum will become more and more comon and affordable, the impact of people with invested arts will inevitable be lessened - but we also see the emargence of mecahnical way of accessing investiture, like Malwish medallions or Fabrials. They are balancing out aluminum's avaibility. Yes, it would be easier to deal with Metalborn, but there will be 10 times more of them. Like Kelsier used to say, there is a push for every pull.

And that's why I'm concerned about aluminum spikes destroying all powers because it threatens to break this balance that's already established. Yes, it's hard to pinpoint a binding point with a spike, but once you do it there is nothing that can be done. There is no counteraction. Nothing that pulls back on the system. It's a weapon greater than even a Shardblade is. And that's a threat. 

Of course it can be done this way with the balance in mind, one of the simplest solutions is to keep Hemalurgy from becoming a public knowledge (which seems to be inconsistent with TLM ending). The threat of overusing aluminum spikes will be gone simply because there aren't many people that know it can be done. However if a skilled Hemalurgist were to be encountered, we're risking creating a plot hole in the story, if he doesn't use an aluminum spike. It would be such a powerful solution that it won't make any sense not to use it. On the other hand, using it is too simple of a solution. Imagine Wax knowing about it and using it in the very first encounter with Miles on the train in AoL - the book would have ended right then and there with Miles getting aluminum between his ribs and losing god status. 

And because of those concerns I have, I think it makes more sense from the storytelling perspective that aluminum does not permanently remove all powers. This just creates better potential for action and generates a more thrilling story, which can't be ended with aluminum spikes every time. However, mechanically speaking it makes sense for aluminum spike to work both ways, with a slight edge given to destroying investiture side, because of how Hemalurgy works in general.

That's a fair concern, and if aluminum Hemalurgy truly is as destructive as hypothesized at its maximum, I could see something like this happening. 

However, Brandon's pretty good at "balancing" the magics (i.e. Hemalurgy's been nerfed significantly since Era 1), so whatever he and his team comes up with I'm sure will solve it, whether it's giving aluminum Hemalurgy a weaker effect than I've suggested, or just making it too impractical. 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:56 PM, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Under the Lord Ruler, Inquisitors had 9 - 11 spikes, but Ruin gave them more. I believe Marsh has 22 to be exact.

Indeed, Marsh had 11 in TFE, got 10 more around the time of HoA, and recycled his 22nd from a deceased Inquisitor after the events of the Catacendre.

He could have more that he's given himself in his 350 years since HoA, but unless he removed some he has at least 22 Hemalurgic spikes. 

Edited July 22 by Trusk'our