How would Mistborn fight with access to all the metals?

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

How would all the metals discovered since TFE change the strategies of a full Mistborn? Obviously, we've seen some Mistborn using duralumin and electrum in WoA and HoA, but those weren't yet commonplace. With Era 2, we've also got chromium, nicrosil, bendalloy, and cadmium.

From the get-go, the metals that stand out as real game changers are chromium and electrum. Against another Mistborn, atium becomes essentially useless. Even against Mistings, you would have to watch out for Oracles.

But even more than electrum, chromium would give Mistborn a massive advantage against Mistings. Thugs would be essentially impotent, as attempting to fight the Mistborn close range would result in being leached. Mistborn would of course have to worry about accidentally trying to leach a Leacher and getting leached themselves, but if you only tried to leach Mistings who you had identified, then you wouldn't have to worry about that.

Nicrosil wouldn't be very useful for a Mistborn, as the only thing they could really use it for would be using it in place of chromium to mess up other Allomancers. Tineyes would be particularly vulnerable to it, although they're not a very big threat in the first place. Mistings might be able to use this for suprises, like a powerful steelpush, or letting a Thug become stronger than the Mistborn momentarily, (We saw in WoA what duralumin-pewter can do, even to someone burning pewter themselves), or even trap them in a super slow bubble. 

Lastly, we've got bendalloy and cadmium. When fighting Mistings, a Mistborn could use bendalloy to isolate small groups and pick them off. In era 1, we see Mistborn getting overwhelmed by groups of Mistings (e.g. Coinshots shooting at them while they're trying to fight Thugs, or Thugs attacking them while they're trying to take out the Coinshots.) Bendalloy would essentially negate this weakness.

Mistborn would probably not have much use for cadmium, but the Mistings fighting them would. A Pulser could trap the Mistborn in slow motion, giving their allies extra time. They could also negate a speed bubble if the Mistborn put one up.

In Mistborn vs. Mistborn fights, chromium would make hand-to-hand combat inviable, as they would just end up leaching each other and needing to refill on metals. If you had more metals (or maybe just more chromium) you might be able to win a leaching contest and clear out your opponent before running out yourself. If you could time it right, a duralumin chromium flare might also be enough to wipe out their metals first. You could also do a sort of feint and allow yourself to get leached, while stabbing (or shooting) your opponent.

If we're talking era 2 technology, then Mistborn vs. Mistborn fights would probably just end up as shoot-outs, because the only sure way to kill your opponent would be to use guns with aluminum bullets. However, there's even a counter to this. Time bubbles cause bullets to ricochet, which offers decent protection. If you do a speed bubble, it will also force your opponent to do likewise (or risk being at a disadvantage), which will make it so that the bullets need to pass through two bubbles.

It seems like Mistborn with all 16 metals would effectively neutralize each other in pretty much every situation. The best way to end the fight would probably be to try for a close-range shot, close enough that a speed bubble can't deflect it.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

How would all the metals discovered since TFE change the strategies of a full Mistborn? Obviously, we've seen some Mistborn using duralumin and electrum in WoA and HoA, but those weren't yet commonplace. With Era 2, we've also got chromium, nicrosil, bendalloy, and cadmium.

From the get-go, the metals that stand out as real game changers are chromium and electrum. Against another Mistborn, atium becomes essentially useless. Even against Mistings, you would have to watch out for Oracles.

But even more than electrum, chromium would give Mistborn a massive advantage against Mistings. Thugs would be essentially impotent, as attempting to fight the Mistborn close range would result in being leached. Mistborn would of course have to worry about accidentally trying to leach a Leacher and getting leached themselves, but if you only tried to leach Mistings who you had identified, then you wouldn't have to worry about that.

Nicrosil wouldn't be very useful for a Mistborn, as the only thing they could really use it for would be using it in place of chromium to mess up other Allomancers. Tineyes would be particularly vulnerable to it, although they're not a very big threat in the first place. Mistings might be able to use this for suprises, like a powerful steelpush, or letting a Thug become stronger than the Mistborn momentarily, (We saw in WoA what duralumin-pewter can do, even to someone burning pewter themselves), or even trap them in a super slow bubble. 

Lastly, we've got bendalloy and cadmium. When fighting Mistings, a Mistborn could use bendalloy to isolate small groups and pick them off. In era 1, we see Mistborn getting overwhelmed by groups of Mistings (e.g. Coinshots shooting at them while they're trying to fight Thugs, or Thugs attacking them while they're trying to take out the Coinshots.) Bendalloy would essentially negate this weakness.

Mistborn would probably not have much use for cadmium, but the Mistings fighting them would. A Pulser could trap the Mistborn in slow motion, giving their allies extra time. They could also negate a speed bubble if the Mistborn put one up.

In Mistborn vs. Mistborn fights, chromium would make hand-to-hand combat inviable, as they would just end up leaching each other and needing to refill on metals. If you had more metals (or maybe just more chromium) you might be able to win a leaching contest and clear out your opponent before running out yourself. If you could time it right, a duralumin chromium flare might also be enough to wipe out their metals first. You could also do a sort of feint and allow yourself to get leached, while stabbing (or shooting) your opponent.

If we're talking era 2 technology, then Mistborn vs. Mistborn fights would probably just end up as shoot-outs, because the only sure way to kill your opponent would be to use guns with aluminum bullets. However, there's even a counter to this. Time bubbles cause bullets to ricochet, which offers decent protection. If you do a speed bubble, it will also force your opponent to do likewise (or risk being at a disadvantage), which will make it so that the bullets need to pass through two bubbles.

It seems like Mistborn with all 16 metals would effectively neutralize each other in pretty much every situation. The best way to end the fight would probably be to try for a close-range shot, close enough that a speed bubble can't deflect it.

Pretty fun ideas!

The most interesting game changers in my opinion would be Bendalloy mixed with duralumin Flares, as a Mistborn could use a duralumin/steel/pewter attack and immediately recuperate their lost metals by setting up a Speed Bubble. 

What's more, burning electrum inside a Speed Bubble shouldn't interfere with its effects since its Spiritual Realm based, and since they're technically burning it faster they may get a significant boost to its strength, and on top of all of that they can more clearly track their electrum shadows because their environment is much slower. 

Adding onto Speed Bubble shenanigans, Seeking (and Smoking) would likely be far augmented, as they're not Physical Realm effects, so getting the ability to reliably piercing Copperclouds is achievable (duralumin can do it too, but only momentarily).

Chromium definitely gives them an edge against Thugs, since they can potentially Leech them, but they lack reach with it which severely limits its real power in my opinion. However, adding a duralumin/Pewter Flare with it adds incredible speed for a brief Leeching, but of course if you miss that leaves you vulnerable since you can't set up a Speed Bubble afterwards.

Duralumin/zinc or duralumin/brass could be used to momentarily stun a target, perhaps even causing lingering distress like with Straff. Plus, since two metals can achieve pretty much the same end result, you have two potential shots with it before needing to down more metals.

Duralumin/steel/pewter can not only deal massive damage to people and surrounding terrain, it can launch you far, far away from your enemies. Adding a Slowness Bubble while a mile in the air will almost guarantee they'll lose you. Speed Bubbles may be able to stick with you if you need to travel into or out of a fight very, very quickly, but that really depends on the Mistborn's perception. 

If you need to recover quickly after a fight, spamming duralumin/pewter might be able to significantly speed up recovery, though it would be no where near as efficient as F-gold.

 

Edited July 27 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Nicrosil wouldn't be very useful for a Mistborn, as the only thing they could really use it for would be using it in place of chromium to mess up other Allomancers.

I think you are severely underestimating the power of Nicrosil. While only tangentially related, this post has the examples I cobbled together on what happens when Duralumin/Nicrosil powers Iron/Steel without Pewter to balance the effect. Also, consider Vin's first experience with Duralumin (Tin+Bronze - maxed simultaneously).

I know a lot of people like to theorize how a team, working together, can make good use of a Nicroburst buffing each other - but I think malicious use of a Nicroburst against an unprepared target can just be deadly. Too much steel and you risk a Nicroburst over-maxing your push so you rip yourself in half. Too much tin and you risk a nicroburst knocking you unconcious from sensory overload. I think the logical result would be everybody involved moderating how much metal is in each vial > resulting in needing more vials total so you never have enough metal that a nicroburst would hurt or kill you. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Nicrosil wouldn't be very useful for a Mistborn, as the only thing they could really use it for would be using it in place of chromium to mess up other Allomancers. Tineyes would be particularly vulnerable to it, although they're not a very big threat in the first place. Mistings might be able to use this for suprises, like a powerful steelpush, or letting a Thug become stronger than the Mistborn momentarily, (We saw in WoA what duralumin-pewter can do, even to someone burning pewter themselves), or even trap them in a super slow bubble. 

Nicrosil is a great offensive weapon, even better than Chromium. Why? Leaching takes time (but this generally doesn't matter with flakes - not enough metal), while nicrosil causes your opponent to burn everything at once. Unexpected surge of power is dangerous to any Misting/Mistborn. There is a reason why Vin had to burn pewter with steel when doing duralumin bursts. So if you catch a Coinshot or a Lurcher mid push/pull and nicroburst them, they will shoot up into the sky with no metal reserves and death awaiting them on the other side, possibly damaging their body depending on anchors used (as they don't have pewter like Vin). Moreover it's possible they'll reach such speeds with this, that they won't be able to slow down in time with steelpushing before hitting the ground, even if they drink another vial. For a Thug this also would be a great option - just touch him when he isn't punching you and his pewter is all gone, while he didn't even move. Or touch him when he's running, that will be funny.

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Lastly, we've got bendalloy and cadmium. When fighting Mistings, a Mistborn could use bendalloy to isolate small groups and pick them off. In era 1, we see Mistborn getting overwhelmed by groups of Mistings (e.g. Coinshots shooting at them while they're trying to fight Thugs, or Thugs attacking them while they're trying to take out the Coinshots.) Bendalloy would essentially negate this weakness.

Mistborn would probably not have much use for cadmium, but the Mistings fighting them would. A Pulser could trap the Mistborn in slow motion, giving their allies extra time. They could also negate a speed bubble if the Mistborn put one up.

Bendalloy bubbles can reach duralumin level emotional Allomancy, which is handy. A Mistborn can burn both bendalloy and cadmium at the same time and use the difference in bubble sizes to their advantage - a cadmium bubble is larger than a bendalloy one and they cancel each other out in regions they overlap. You can create a sphere of slowed down time around you, able to deflect any projectile aimed at you or catch anyone trying to get near you in slowmo. Once they're caught, it's basically shooting fish in a barrel - you have all the time to react, they can't even see it coming. 

Spoiler

Failsafe

If one were to Riot or Soothe out of a cadmium bubble or a bendalloy bubble, would the emotional Allomancy be effectual? If so, how would it be affected by the speed bubble, and how would that work in reverse?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to... Someone's inside a bubble, and you're shooting Allomancy into it from outside, would it have an effect? The answer to that would be yes. Shooting out of it should work also. It is going to be affected though. I think depending on the speed of it, you're gonna end up with a stretching or condensing of it. If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit. And if you're doing it from outside in, and they're moving very fast, you're gonna have a lesser effect.

Questioner

Would it have some randomness, like a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

You probably wouldn't be able to target... No, you would be able to. You would be fine. You can do kind of a cone, and things like that. It might be hard to hit the specific individual, but it wouldn't be as much trouble as a bullet.

Questioner

What about with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about duralumin is, if you wanted to extra duralumin it, what you'd have to do is eat some within a speed bubble, use it, then eat some more, then use it. You could therefore kind of multiply up, but yeah. So yes, you could do that, but you'd have to do it multiple times.

spectral.limina

Just to confirm, is that a fast bubble or slow bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

That'd be a fast bubble, cause you're piling it up. More time is passing for you than people outside. Basically, you're doing five times duralumin push in one burst. It could probably get pretty dangerous, some people's emotions.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Shardlet (paraphrased)

A slider and a pulser are standing near each other and each put up a bubble. Neither is standing close enough to the other to be within the other's bubble, but they are near enough that their bubbles would overlap what effect would you have?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The bubbles would overlap and it would be like a Venn diagram (i.e., outside both bubbles-normal time, in sliders bubble-fast time, in pulser's bubble-slow time, in the overlap-normal time).

SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013)

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:54 AM, Trusk'our said:

What's more, burning electrum inside a Speed Bubble shouldn't interfere with its effects since its Spiritual Realm based, and since they're technically burning it faster they may get a significant boost to its strength, and on top of all of that they can more clearly track their electrum shadows because their environment is much slower. 

I think the shadows inside the bubble would still be moving at the same relative speed.

On 7/27/2024 at 11:54 AM, Trusk'our said:

Chromium definitely gives them an edge against Thugs, since they can potentially Leech them, but they lack reach with it which severely limits its real power in my opinion. However, adding a duralumin/Pewter Flare with it adds incredible speed for a brief Leeching, but of course if you miss that leaves you vulnerable since you can't set up a Speed Bubble afterwards.

Thugs don’t have reach either (except a small amount if they have a weapon), and chromium can wipe metals pretty much instantly, so you could just block their attack and leach them at the same time.

On 7/27/2024 at 11:54 AM, Trusk'our said:

Duralumin/zinc or duralumin/brass could be used to momentarily stun a target, perhaps even causing lingering distress like with Straff. Plus, since two metals can achieve pretty much the same end result, you have two potential shots with it before needing to down more metals

With duralumin, brass and zinc actually have opposite effects. Brass stuns, like we see on Straff. We see Vin use duralumin zinc on a guard in Fadrex, which makes him start a scuffle with another guard. I’m guessing the results could vary, depending on the emotion, but in a fight, you could probably get someone to get angry and do something reckless.

On 7/27/2024 at 12:12 PM, Treamayne said:

I think you are severely underestimating the power of Nicrosil. While only tangentially related, this post has the examples I cobbled together on what happens when Duralumin/Nicrosil powers Iron/Steel without Pewter to balance the effect. Also, consider Vin's first experience with Duralumin (Tin+Bronze - maxed simultaneously).

I know a lot of people like to theorize how a team, working together, can make good use of a Nicroburst buffing each other - but I think malicious use of a Nicroburst against an unprepared target can just be deadly. Too much steel and you risk a Nicroburst over-maxing your push so you rip yourself in half. Too much tin and you risk a nicroburst knocking you unconcious from sensory overload. I think the logical result would be everybody involved moderating how much metal is in each vial > resulting in needing more vials total so you never have enough metal that a nicroburst would hurt or kill you. 

It can be useful, but it seems to me that the situations where you would be able to pull it off are not going to come up frequently. You have to catch a Coinshot/Lurcher at the right moment, which requires you to be close. Coinshots primarily fight at a distance, so if you manage to get close to one, they’ve pretty much already lost. (I did mention that it would be effective on Tineyes, but they’re not very big threats anyway.) The problem is that most Mistings could be easily defeated by a Mistborn if they get close, Thugs being the main exception. Nicrobursting a Thug would be pretty dangerous—you might be able to mess them up a bit, but there’s also a chance that they use their moment of enhanced strength to obliterate you. Probably safer to just leach them.

A common situation where it might work: you approach a Coinshot, who tries to Push into the air to escape. You nicroburst him as he does, which sends him rocketing into the air without steel to break his fall. A Lurcher also might try to Pull away, in which case you can send them rocketing into a wall.

On 7/27/2024 at 12:22 PM, alder24 said:

Nicrosil is a great offensive weapon, even better than Chromium. Why? Leaching takes time (but this generally doesn't matter with flakes - not enough metal), while nicrosil causes your opponent to burn everything at once.

According to a WoB, chromium works as fast as duralumin. Seems reasonable to assume that nicrosil, the external counterpart to duralumin and pair of chromium, would work the same, so not instantaneous. Also, just from a balance perspective, I don’t think Brandon would make nicrosil better at getting rid of metal than chromium.

They’re most likely interchangeable in many situations. It depends on if the burst of power will be beneficial to you or not.

On 7/27/2024 at 12:22 PM, alder24 said:

For a Thug this also would be a great option - just touch him when he isn't punching you and his pewter is all gone, while he didn't even move. Or touch him when he's running, that will be funny.

Like I said, this could be risky—duralumin/nicrosil boosted pewter is enough to absolutely destroy even someone with pewter. Catching them while moving would be your best bet.

On 7/27/2024 at 12:22 PM, alder24 said:

Bendalloy bubbles can reach duralumin level emotional Allomancy, which is handy. A Mistborn can burn both bendalloy and cadmium at the same time and use the difference in bubble sizes to their advantage - a cadmium bubble is larger than a bendalloy one and they cancel each other out in regions they overlap. You can create a sphere of slowed down time around you, able to deflect any projectile aimed at you or catch anyone trying to get near you in slowmo. Once they're caught, it's basically shooting fish in a barrel - you have all the time to react, they can't even see it coming.

Technically, this wouldn’t be much better than only bendalloy, because instead of slowing down everyone, relative to you, you’re only slowing down a ring of space. It would mainly be useful if you have allies on the outside, or you just want two layers of deflection between you and your enemies.

Good thoughts, everyone!

 

Quote

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

Edited July 29 by Speeding Steelrunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

27 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I think the shadows inside the bubble would still be moving at the same relative speed.

Sorry, I meant to say for shadows outside the bubble, as the Investiture working for them should be expanded due to the expanded time you spend burning metal.

29 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Thugs don’t have reach either (except a small amount if they have a weapon), and chromium can wipe metals pretty much instantly, so you could just block their attack and leach them at the same time.

A Thug isn't going to be attacking the Mistborn with their fists if they can help it. They'll have a thick, 3-4 foot long dueling cane to break the Mistborn's arm as they try to Leech them.

Not impossible to block the attack and sweep in to Leech them, but not easy enough to be a reliable tactic most of the time, particularly not with steel as an option. 

33 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

With duralumin, brass and zinc actually have opposite effects. Brass stuns, like we see on Straff. We see Vin use duralumin zinc on a guard in Fadrex, which makes him start a scuffle with another guard. I’m guessing the results could vary, depending on the emotion, but in a fight, you could probably get someone to get angry and do something reckless.

I would argue that if someone is momentarily shocked into inability due to hyper Rioted fear or an emotionless trance, the combat application will be the same.

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

With duralumin, brass and zinc actually have opposite effects. Brass stuns, like we see on Straff. We see Vin use duralumin zinc on a guard in Fadrex, which makes him start a scuffle with another guard. I’m guessing the results could vary, depending on the emotion, but in a fight, you could probably get someone to get angry and do something reckless.

Zinc+duralumin can do both. We've seen its effect in TLM with the application of pure Dor to fuel zinc - it paralyzed Entrone. It probably depends on which emotions you target. TLM ch 60:

Quote

Shame hit Marasi like a wave.
The Rioter’s art. Pick an emotion, then blast it into a person on full automatic. It was easier for emotional Allomancers to target their powers in a direction instead of at a specific individual.
It caught Entrone, judging by his stumble, but it also pounded Marasi with a sense of worthlessness.
[...]
Entrone wasn’t so capable. He curled up on the green-painted stone patio and whimpered softly. All the regeneration powers in the world wouldn’t help if he couldn’t move—and without his aluminum-lined hat he was completely subject to Armal’s control.

 

49 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

According to a WoB, chromium works as fast as duralumin. Seems reasonable to assume that nicrosil, the external counterpart to duralumin and pair of chromium, would work the same, so not instantaneous.

Duralumin and nicrosil burn your entire reserves instantly, but they themselves aren't burnt instantly - reserves of duralumin and nicrosil burns separately from what you're bursting. WoA ch 38:

Quote

She struggled in vain. She had duralumin still—burning it only made other metals vanish, not the duralumin itself—but last time that had nearly gotten her killed

TLM Ars Arcanum:

Quote

NICROSIL: Nicroburst Mistings who burn nicrosil while touching another Allomancer will instantly burn away any metals being burned by that Allomancer, releasing an enormous (and perhaps unexpected) burst of those metals’ power within that Allomancer

 

56 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I don’t think Brandon would make nicrosil better at getting rid of metal than chromium.

Well, there is a difference - one gets rid of metals, the other releases all of their power in an unpredictable way. It's safer to use chromium but it takes some time, it's riskier and also more rewarding to use nicrosil. Use chromium on a Thug who tries to punch you, use nicrosil on him if he tries to step away from you. 

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Technically, this wouldn’t be much better than only bendalloy, because instead of slowing down everyone, relative to you, you’re only slowing down a ring of space. It would mainly be useful if you have allies on the outside, or you just want two layers of deflection between you and your enemies.

Only if you forgot about how important deception is during a fight. If you burn just bendalloy everyone will notice you're moving too fast and blurring through the fighting ground, so they can try to counteract you - like shooting in front of you, or grouping together. If you burn both cadmium and duralumin they will see you at the normal speed and won't suspect a bubble - bubbles are very hard to see, the edge of it looks just like a faint waving of the air and you mostly need to be familiar with them to notice their edge. Even Marais whe knew them well, wasn't able to spot Wayne's speed bubbles at first. Miles was doomed by this fact. That gives you an advantage because they won't expect to suddenly freeze in time while closing in on you. And if you're fighting against a Mistborn/Slider then your cadmium ring will neutralize their speed bubble, which would be handy if you have allies, as you noticed. AoL ch 2: 

Quote

Years of familiarity let Waxillium discern the boundary of the bubble, which was marked by a faint wavering of the air.

AoL ch 4:

Quote

“Aren’t you worried?” Marasi asked softly of Wayne. “You’re wearing a waiter’s uniform. If they see you sitting at the table and eating…”
“Oh, that’s a good point,” Wayne said, tipping his chair back. The person behind him had left, and with Lord Harms gone, Wayne had just enough room to—
—and there it was. He leaned his chair forward again, clothing changed back to a duster with a loose button-down shirt and thick Roughs trousers underneath. He spun his hat on his finger. The earrings were gone. Marasi jumped.
“Speed bubble,” she whispered, sounding awed. “I thought I’d be able to see something from outside!”
“You could, if you were watching closely,” Waxillium said. “A blur"

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

A Thug isn't going to be attacking the Mistborn with their fists if they can help it. They'll have a thick, 3-4 foot long dueling cane to break the Mistborn's arm as they try to Leech them.

Not impossible to block the attack and sweep in to Leech them, but not easy enough to be a reliable tactic most of the time, particularly not with steel as an option. 

Honestly, Thugs seem pretty ineffective now just because of guns. I mean, sure they seem to be able to take a few shots, but a shot to the head should still take them out.

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I would argue that if someone is momentarily shocked into inability due to hyper Rioted fear or an emotionless trance, the combat application will be the same.

Yeah, I didn't realize you could still target specific emotions with duralumin-zinc. Sounds like zinc and brass are still mostly interchangeable even with duralumin.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Zinc+duralumin can do both. We've seen its effect in TLM with the application of pure Dor to fuel zinc - it paralyzed Entrone. It probably depends on which emotions you target. TLM ch 60:

I haven't read TLM yet, although I haven't avoided spoilers, so I know a lot of plot details (don't burn me at the stake for heresy!) In that case, zinc and brass will both work.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Duralumin and nicrosil burn your entire reserves instantly, but they themselves aren't burnt instantly - reserves of duralumin and nicrosil burns separately from what you're bursting. WoA ch 38:

Yes, but they don't make other metals burn instantaneously either. It's physically impossible for anything to happen instantaneously, because an instant is a theoretical concept. From my understanding, aluminum, duralumin, chromium, and nicrosil all burn at about the same speed, which is really fast, but not instantaneous (admittedly, we haven't seen much of aluminum, chromium, or nicrosil in action, so we don't have much evidence either way.) Even if you want to say that nicrosil is instantaneous, but chromium isn't, chromium is still clearly so fast that speed isn't going to be an issue in most cases. The WoB I quoted in my previous post says that the leacher would have to hang on for a few seconds, but that's for a compounder with Invested metal and piercings as well as standard flakes. Invested metal takes more time than normal, and piercings are fairly large chunks of metal compared to standard flakes, so I think it's safe to say you could leach a normal Allomancer with a quick touch.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well, there is a difference - one gets rid of metals, the other releases all of their power in an unpredictable way. It's safer to use chromium but it takes some time, it's riskier and also more rewarding to use nicrosil. Use chromium on a Thug who tries to punch you, use nicrosil on him if he tries to step away from you.

Like I said, I don't think chromium would take any longer, but other than that, that's a fair distinction: chromium is safer; nicrosil is more rewarding if you get it right, but more dangerous if you mess up.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Only if you forgot about how important deception is during a fight. If you burn just bendalloy everyone will notice you're moving too fast and blurring through the fighting ground, so they can try to counteract you - like shooting in front of you, or grouping together. If you burn both cadmium and duralumin they will see you at the normal speed and won't suspect a bubble - bubbles are very hard to see, the edge of it looks just like a faint waving of the air and you mostly need to be familiar with them to notice their edge. Even Marais whe knew them well, wasn't able to spot Wayne's speed bubbles at first. Miles was doomed by this fact. That gives you an advantage because they won't expect to suddenly freeze in time while closing in on you. And if you're fighting against a Mistborn/Slider then your cadmium ring will neutralize their speed bubble, which would be handy if you have allies, as you noticed. AoL ch 2: 

I do tend to forget how hard to see time bubbles are (I have to imagine them as being visible.) However, if you burn duralumin with bendalloy, deception isn't going to matter--you will be sped up so much that you can shoot down everyone outside before they can even react, and you don't even have to rely on them walking into a slow bubble on their own. The bendalloy + cadmium trick could certainly be useful in some instances, but I think in general bendalloy is going to prove more effective. It depends on who you want to affect. If you want to slow down your opponents so that other people have time to act, the cadmium ring works best, because it doesn't slow down everyone (relative to you), only people nearby. But if all you care about is slowing down your opponents relative to yourself, then you might as well just use bendalloy. (The double deflection of bendalloy + cadmium might also be desireable sometimes.)

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I haven't read TLM yet, although I haven't avoided spoilers, so I know a lot of plot details (don't burn me at the stake for heresy!) In that case, zinc and brass will both work.

Sorry, I wasn't aware of this. If you want to avoid getting spoiled in your topics, I do recommend writing a warning in your first post about it.  

15 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Yes, but they don't make other metals burn instantaneously either. It's physically impossible for anything to happen instantaneously, because an instant is a theoretical concept. From my understanding, aluminum, duralumin, chromium, and nicrosil all burn at about the same speed, which is really fast, but not instantaneous (admittedly, we haven't seen much of aluminum, chromium, or nicrosil in action, so we don't have much evidence either way.) Even if you want to say that nicrosil is instantaneous, but chromium isn't, chromium is still clearly so fast that speed isn't going to be an issue in most cases. The WoB I quoted in my previous post says that the leacher would have to hang on for a few seconds, but that's for a compounder with Invested metal and piercings as well as standard flakes. Invested metal takes more time than normal, and piercings are fairly large chunks of metal compared to standard flakes, so I think it's safe to say you could leach a normal Allomancer with a quick touch.

True, there is no event that happens instantly and while the speeds at which chromium and duralumin burn are comparable, we don't know if the amount of investiture they are working with at that time are comparable as well - if the amount of investiture burned away by chromium is the same as the amount of investiture released in a burst by duralumin. One might be harder than the other and require more work, thus more investiture to accomplish and that means in the same timeframe one will do less than the other, therefore it might take longer for one of those metals to get rid of the same amount of investiture. The speed at which metals are burning depends on how much work the power does.

And I did mention in one of my previous posts that time for chromium doesn't matter with just flakes.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

 

17 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I do tend to forget how hard to see time bubbles are (I have to imagine them as being visible.) However, if you burn duralumin with bendalloy, deception isn't going to matter--you will be sped up so much that you can shoot down everyone outside before they can even react, and you don't even have to rely on them walking into a slow bubble on their own.

No, you can't shoot anyone outside the duralumin enhanced bubble, because bullets change direction randomly while passing through a time bubble - you can't aim. Also you can't move your bubble around the area unless you're a Savant. Plus moving around with a speed bubble creates a lot of problems because there are objects passing through it - this is way more complicated, it might even pop due to this. The use of duralumin and bendalloy is limited to situations when you're like Wayne and you just want to fight one on one with no interuptions for a bit longer - but the bendalloy bubble is quite small so even there it would be very hard to keep the fight inside, especially against a Mistborn.

Spoiler

Questioner

So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with.

Necarion

So a savant could?

Brandon Sanderson

A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there's a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there's a transfer of energy directly from the Spiritual Realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you're gonna run into that, and it's gonna be, it's gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Sorry, I wasn't aware of this. If you want to avoid getting spoiled in your topics, I do recommend writing a warning in your first post about it. 

I know all the important spoilers already, so I don't bother avoiding them. I don't mind!

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, you can't shoot anyone outside the duralumin enhanced bubble, because bullets change direction randomly while passing through a time bubble - you can't aim. Also you can't move your bubble around the area unless you're a Savant. Plus moving around with a speed bubble creates a lot of problems because there are objects passing through it - this is way more complicated, it might even pop due to this. The use of duralumin and bendalloy is limited to situations when you're like Wayne and you just want to fight one on one with no interuptions for a bit longer - but the bendalloy bubble is quite small so even there it would be very hard to keep the fight inside, especially against a Mistborn.

With duralumin, time would be slowed down so much, that even without being able to aim, you would probably be able to fire enough shots to get lucky and hit at least some of your opponents. The deflection would also be a problem with the bendalloy + cadmium ring, so this at least isn't any harder. I don't think I said anything about moving the bubble...

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

With duralumin, time would be slowed down so much, that even without being able to aim, you would probably be able to fire enough shots to get lucky and hit at least some of your opponents. The deflection would also be a problem with the bendalloy + cadmium ring, so this at least isn't any harder. I don't think I said anything about moving the bubble...

Are you carrying a minigun with you with 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Otherwise you will miss most of your shots unless your opponent is literally on the edge of the bubble. TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

And in the case of duralumin bubble, it's last only a short time from your perspective and just objects passing through it make the bubble crack and eventually collapse. 

You didn't say anything about moving bubbles, but if you want to freeze time with multiple enemies around you, you have to be able to move your bubble to accurately shoot everyone. They won't be all standing nicely right on the edge of the bubble for you, they will be all around the place - you can't shoot them all from that bubble. 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Are you carrying a minigun with you with 10,000 rounds of ammunition? Otherwise you will miss most of your shots unless your opponent is literally on the edge of the bubble. TLM spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

And in the case of duralumin bubble, it's last only a short time from your perspective and just objects passing through it make the bubble crack and eventually collapse. 

You didn't say anything about moving bubbles, but if you want to freeze time with multiple enemies around you, you have to be able to move your bubble to accurately shoot everyone. They won't be all standing nicely right on the edge of the bubble for you, they will be all around the place - you can't shoot them all from that bubble. 

Alright, fair! But using bendalloy + cadmium relies on them all running into the belt of slowness around you. Once a few people have suddenly slowed to a crawl, the others will realize that they shouldn't go running in there.

If there are a few enemies nearby, then duralumin + bendalloy should work fine, but if they're further away and you need them to come closer, then I can see that the bendalloy + cadmium strategy could work better.

If you've got a Slider for a friend, you can do both! Double bendalloy bubble in the middle of a cadmium bubble.

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Alright, fair! But using bendalloy + cadmium relies on them all running into the belt of slowness around you. Once a few people have suddenly slowed to a crawl, the others will realize that they shouldn't go running in there.

Yes and then you execute them with a gun placed next to their heads. Everyone outside your sphere would watch their friends dying very slowly, watching the bullet as it's passing through their head, ripping their skull to shreds, pieces of their brain flying off behind it and their body very, very slowly dropping on the ground. That's terrifying. Nobody would want to go anywhere near you.

12 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

If you've got a Slider for a friend, you can do both! Double bendalloy bubble in the middle of a cadmium bubble.

Well, you can always flare bendalloy and burn cadmium at a regular speed. But if you have a sphere of cadmium around you, there is no need to be faster than others anymore - they can't get to you no matter what.

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes and then you execute them with a gun placed next to their heads. Everyone outside your sphere would watch their friends dying very slowly, watching the bullet as it's passing through their head, ripping their skull to shreds, pieces of their brain flying off behind it and their body very, very slowly dropping on the ground. That's terrifying. Nobody would want to go anywhere near you.

Well, you can always flare bendalloy and burn cadmium at a regular speed. But if you have a sphere of cadmium around you, there is no need to be faster than others anymore - they can't get to you no matter what.

It would make you faster than everyone, including the people outside of the cadmium bubble, although I guess that defeats the point if you're trying to trick people, (although it wouldn't give away the cadmium bubble.)

Edited July 29 by Speeding Steelrunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Honestly, Thugs seem pretty ineffective now just because of guns. I mean, sure they seem to be able to take a few shots, but a shot to the head should still take them out.

I mean, the strength component of their powers are largely ineffective in direct combat with the arrival of firearms, but they're notably faster, more dexterous, more durable and more tolerant towards pain (aluminum bullets also at least partially screw with these last two advantages, but only of the aluminum gets lodged in their body and it's apparently not nearly as big a deal as it is with Bloodmakers).

That being said, any modern Pewterarm with half a brain would prefer a firearm over a big stick, so a Mistborn probably wouldn't have to contend with that extra reach. . . Just, you know, bullets. 

7 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Yeah, I didn't realize you could still target specific emotions with duralumin-zinc. Sounds like zinc and brass are still mostly interchangeable even with duralumin.

Yeah, they're probably the two most interchangeable Metallic Arts.

Technically there's some differences in their ability, sure, but you can pretty easily achieve the same end result with the correct targeting. 

Also @alder24, @Speeding Steelrunner, just going to give my opinion on the Bendalloy/Cadmium duel-bubble trick because even now I find it difficult to grasp why it's so popular.

To me, this seems largely wasteful; if a Bendalloy bubble makes you faster relative to the rest of the universe, why would you need to also add a Cadmium bubble?

It does slow down your opponents and could leave them open to allies without directly slowing you down, but I don't see that being nearly as useful as just speeding yourself or a small group of allies up in a Bendalloy bubble (yes, there are circumstances where this is preferable, such as getting allies to come and help from far away like in AoL with Miles and Marasi, but that's just the advantages of Cadmium with fewer disadvantages, none of Bendalloy's true advantages, which I would add are preferable in the majority of circumstances). Just move faster with no drawback, and no enemies outside the bubble will be on equal grounds without their own bubble or Steelrunning.

Plus, aluminum isn't affected by Investiture, so if your enemies are outside your Cadmium bubble and have decent aim, they may be able to ignore the bubble's ricocheting effects or straight up pop the bubble (for example, Wayne wouldn't even be able to set up a bubble if aluminum poked through its border).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/73-shadows-of-self-san-francisco-signing/#e4297

Questioner

What would happen--

Imagine I had-- imagine Wayne is standing near the end of an aluminium tube. He tries to set up a speed bubble such that he radius would go through the tube, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay standing at the end of an aluminum tube, well I don't know--

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think that if it's trying to be set up through aluminum it's gonna' disrupt it, you're gonna' have that sort of the "backlash" that you get when-- yeah.

Questioner

Oh so you can't even set it, it won't be there *inaudible*--

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think you can set it up, I think it's gonna' cause it to collapse the second that it tries to pop up around the aluminum.

Questioner

Okay that makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Yeah, it's probably gonna' act like you tried to set up a speed bubble on something that's too small and moving.

 

Edited July 30 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Also @alder24, @Speeding Steelrunner, just going to give my opinion on the Bendalloy/Cadmium duel-bubble trick because even now I find it difficult to grasp why it's so popular.

To me, this seems largely wasteful; if a Bendalloy bubble makes you faster relative to the rest of the universe, why would you need to also add a Cadmium bubble?

It does slow down your opponents and could leave them open to allies without directly slowing you down, but I don't see that being nearly as useful as just speeding yourself or a small group of allies up in a Bendalloy bubble (yes, there are circumstances where this is preferable, such as getting allies to come and help from far away like in AoL with Miles and Marasi, but that's just the advantages of Cadmium with fewer disadvantages, none of Bendalloy's true advantages, which I would add are preferable in the majority of circumstances). Just move faster with no drawback, and no enemies outside the bubble will be on equal grounds without their own bubble or Steelrunning.

Plus, aluminum isn't affected by Investiture, so if your enemies are outside your Cadmium bubble and have decent aim, they may be able to ignore the bubble's ricocheting effects or straight up pop the bubble (for example, Wayne wouldn't even be able to set up a bubble if aluminum poked through its border).

Of course it's not applicable to every situation but it works well if you want to deceive your opponent or play defensively. Being able to pick up one enemy at the time by trapping them in a bendalloy bubble is a massive advantage, but bubbles have huge limitations.

First major one is that unless you're a Savant (which is an abnormal situation) you can't anchor your bubbles to you, they are stationary - you can't run around the battleground as if you were a Steelrunner. Second big disadvantage is the fact that you can't create another bubble immediately after you drop the previous one - you have to wait a few seconds to do that.

And those two things alone is the reason why Wayne without F-gold would be dead like 20 times - he got shot a lot of times and even running in an unpredictable way while making and dropping bubbles didn't save him from being shot. In the very first fighting scene in Era 2 Wayne got shot. We tend to look at Bendalloy having Wayne in mind, but without F-gold it's a very risky and aggressive style of fighting - too risky. Playing defensively with two bubbles is a good strategy in some situations - not always - just like doing what Wayne was doing is also a good tactic, but not always. 

And that's what I'm trying to argue here. It's just one strategy, one of many. It's useful sometimes, but totally useless in other scenarios. It's good to remember this is an option, but you can't use it every time. You can combine those two strategies together, first play defensively by having two bubbles, hiding behind obstacles, which would force your enemies to close the distance and be trapped in the cadmium sphere. Then you kill them effortlessly and drop your bubbles, starting to run around your surprised and scared opponents and kill them one by one, just like Wayne did using a bendalloy bubble. Wayne's strategy was to be unpredictable - adding another bubble to the mix has a potential to be even more unpredictable. That's an advantage.

And yes, aluminum bullets are a problem, that's why I don't envision anyone just standing in the middle of the room with two bubbles around them - they should take cover and force their enemy to get closer. 

As for aluminum popping up bubbles, I might be wrong but I think there were examples of aluminum bullets passing through Wayne's bubble without popping it. The WoB is about creating a bubble when there is a tube of aluminum going through its border - in this case the bubble cannot close itself in that place, thus it pops. 

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Plus, aluminum isn't affected by Investiture, so if your enemies are outside your Cadmium bubble and have decent aim, they may be able to ignore the bubble's ricocheting effects or straight up pop the bubble (for example, Wayne wouldn't even be able to set up a bubble if aluminum poked through its border).

I’m pretty sure aluminum is affected by time bubbles. If it wasn’t, it would make bendalloy bubbles even more powerful, because the aluminum wouldn’t be sped up, so you could dodge it easily.

I don’t think an aluminum bullet is enough to pop the bubble either, because if it could, I’m sure we would have seen Wayne get his bubbles destroyed many times. It probably has to be a fairly large object.

I did think of a weakness of this strategy though. If your enemies have any Sliders, they could try creating bubbles to bridge the gap in the cadmium (admittedly, it might take several of them.) They could just charge the bubble and surprise you by not getting slowed down as they make a line of bubbles. You could try duralumin, but that won’t last long, and then you’re out of bendalloy and cadmium, as well as other metals potentially, and you wouldn’t be able to refuel in a time bubble.

Or, if some of their allies get trapped in the slowness, a Slider could run to the edge and put up a bubble to get them back in normal speed. Add another, and they go faster than you.

[Trusk'our he/him]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Of course it's not applicable to every situation but it works well if you want to deceive your opponent or play defensively. Being able to pick up one enemy at the time by trapping them in a bendalloy bubble is a massive advantage, but bubbles have huge limitations.

First major one is that unless you're a Savant (which is an abnormal situation) you can't anchor your bubbles to you, they are stationary - you can't run around the battleground as if you were a Steelrunner. Second big disadvantage is the fact that you can't create another bubble immediately after you drop the previous one - you have to wait a few seconds to do that.

And those two things alone is the reason why Wayne without F-gold would be dead like 20 times - he got shot a lot of times and even running in an unpredictable way while making and dropping bubbles didn't save him from being shot. In the very first fighting scene in Era 2 Wayne got shot. We tend to look at Bendalloy having Wayne in mind, but without F-gold it's a very risky and aggressive style of fighting - too risky. Playing defensively with two bubbles is a good strategy in some situations - not always - just like doing what Wayne was doing is also a good tactic, but not always. 

And that's what I'm trying to argue here. It's just one strategy, one of many. It's useful sometimes, but totally useless in other scenarios. It's good to remember this is an option, but you can't use it every time. You can combine those two strategies together, first play defensively by having two bubbles, hiding behind obstacles, which would force your enemies to close the distance and be trapped in the cadmium sphere. Then you kill them effortlessly and drop your bubbles, starting to run around your surprised and scared opponents and kill them one by one, just like Wayne did using a bendalloy bubble. Wayne's strategy was to be unpredictable - adding another bubble to the mix has a potential to be even more unpredictable. That's an advantage.

That's a much clearer argument than I've heard before, thank you for stating it as such.

I still personally think that the double-bubble's advantages aren't that useful compared to pure Bendalloy, at least most of the time; a double-bubble really grants the advantage of a Cadmium bubble, slowing down a group of enemies captured within relative to the rest of the universe all while the Bendalloy bubble keeps you from suffering the same temporal disadvantage. 

However, Bendalloy gives you a temporal advantage against everyone outside the bubble when used on its own, allowing you to position yourself erratically and zig-zag across the battlefied. 

I don't see how a double-bubble adds to this chaos, as your speed is still the same as it would be to those inside the cadmium bubble as if you were only using bendalloy, but you now have no temporal advantage against those outside the slowness bubble. You can't move the bendalloy bubble inside the cadmium bubble in most circumstances either, meaning that you're still trapped to your own bubble, except that trying to leave while your slowness bubble is still trapping others would now trap you as well.

So my end conclusion is that a double-bubble is useful, but only for the advantages that we'd normally see for cadmium, not bendalloy, and bendalloy just has better advantages provided for more situations. Not all, but most.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And yes, aluminum bullets are a problem, that's why I don't envision anyone just standing in the middle of the room with two bubbles around them - they should take cover and force their enemy to get closer. 

As for aluminum popping up bubbles, I might be wrong but I think there were examples of aluminum bullets passing through Wayne's bubble without popping it. The WoB is about creating a bubble when there is a tube of aluminum going through its border - in this case the bubble cannot close itself in that place, thus it pops. 

It's very possible that you'd need more aluminum than what's inside a bullet to pierce the bubble, or that bubbles set are just more resilient. 

I think it would be great to know whether they're still deflected by the bubble's border, as if they are it means that the temporal effects of the bubble must be indirectly affecting the objects and entities within, pulling on spacetime, but not the things themselves, which means the non-Investiture conductive aluminum would be vulnerable to it.

However, any object even touching the border of the bubble is susceptible to its field, so I'm a bit skeptical of this indirect effect.

[Duxredux he/him]

Anyone adding in Allomantic grenades into the Mistborn's arsenal? That's when it starts really getting complicated and terrifying. When the Mistborn lobs a cube and you have no idea if you're going to get a Steelpush behind your position, Leeched, Cadmium Bubble, Nicroburst, blanket Soothing, or Ironpull... that's really hard to adapt to short of trying to shoot the grenade out of the air. This flexibility is something that even a group of Mistings would have a hard time replicating during the fast-paced fights that generally happen around Mistborn. Mistborn with a grenade can use strategies that people just flat out don't do, because running into a group and Pulling on everything strongly is usually suicide, but an Allomantic grenade can do that for you. You'd need Wax levels of precision, but you could use a tossed Ironpull grenade to bend your shots around corners or simply draw fire. Lobbing multiple grenades can cause mass havoc as well by throwing up A-Cadmium deadzones, Soothing, or Steelpushes.  When fighting a group without a Coinshot or Lurcher (because either they don't have one or you killed them), you can attach a metal tag to the grenade to Pull it back to you after it has spent its charge - as long as you didn't charge it with Steel or Iron.

Based on this WoB, some powers that normally can only be used personally can be granted in an AoE.  Confirmed ones are Duralumin boosting a target and Aluminum creating a nullified zone.

Quote

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

So... Can you grant someone a sudden burst of A-Tin, or Gold Shadows? In the right circumstances that could be as disorienting as a Soothing but one that most people can't prepare for unless they have had this specific stunt used on them. Lob an A-Tin grenade and fire off some of Ranette's Tineye Hazekiller rounds or a flash bang and you've got some nasty ways to disable a group. This could be useful even against a group in bulletproof Hazekiller armor with a Slider that can break out of Cadmium bubbles (sure that's a specific example, but we're looking at who would be fighting a Mistborn).

With Duralumin now readily available in addition to the grenades, Mistborn can now setup different powers to shield themselves between Duralumin bursts. Sure, Bendalloy is a fantastic opportunity maker, but holding a A-Steel cube making a Steelbubble right after you blasted their group with a Duralumin Steelpush to extend your push (possibly even using it to stop a fall) and you've got some good flexibility - even if you are running low on certain metals. 

Add in all of the strategies others have listed, particularly the power of unexpected Nicrobursting a group of Mistings, and a lot of the close range drawbacks for many Mistborn powers can be removed. Sure, the enemy can pick them up and use them against you, but unless they have a full Mistborn as well, they won't have anywhere close to the same number of strategies. Start with a Leeching and you might not even have to worry about them using your grenade against you as you wade in with lead, Pewter, and Steel.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I just had a thought about the whole "You can't shoot out of a Speedbubble cause it the bullet's go wild" but isn't there an easy way for a Mistborn to solve that?

You just go up to the edge of the bubble, gently toss a coin past it, then line it up whoever you're trying to kill, then Steelpush it as hard as you can. By Steelpushing it you can force its trajectory back to where you want, it'd probably be even stronger than normal since you're applying more force per second than a normal Steelpush. You just have to be smart about it is all.

But looking at all these potential tricks, the real strength to a modern Mistborn is that they'd have all of these options at anytime, barring the Allomantic Grenades that is, meaning that they'll always have some kind of trick to help them win a fight. Need to trap someone for a while? Use a Double Bubble. Need to rapid fire Duralumin Steelpushes? Use a Speedbubble to have time to replenish your metals. Need to heal from mortal injuries but aren't a Bloodmaker? Burn a ton of pewter and duralumin to recover really fast.

The point is that a smart, well trained Mistborn with all metals, will probably always have some kind of answer to almost any problem. 

And if we're including access to equipment like Primer Cubes and Unsealed Metalminds, then by Harmony what have we created? Even just Unkeyed Metalminds would be ludicrous. 

[alder24]

7 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

You just go up to the edge of the bubble, gently toss a coin past it, then line it up whoever you're trying to kill, then Steelpush it as hard as you can. By Steelpushing it you can force its trajectory back to where you want, it'd probably be even stronger than normal since you're applying more force per second than a normal Steelpush. You just have to be smart about it is all.

It's not just about trajectory, you can't steelpush something that's outside of your time bubble. I think there was a quote about this, but I can't find it, anyway Wax had plenty of opportunities to try doing this in Era 2 yet he never tried, he knew it won't work.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Speaking of time bubbles, can iron and steel and emotional Allomancy go beyond the boundaries of time bubbles; like if I'm inside a time bubble can I just like super Steelpush outside?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, time bubbles interfere with almost all forms of Investiture.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

[Duxredux he/him]

7 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I just had a thought about the whole "You can't shoot out of a Speedbubble cause it the bullet's go wild" but isn't there an easy way for a Mistborn to solve that?

You just go up to the edge of the bubble, gently toss a coin past it, then line it up whoever you're trying to kill, then Steelpush it as hard as you can. By Steelpushing it you can force its trajectory back to where you want, it'd probably be even stronger than normal since you're applying more force per second than a normal Steelpush. You just have to be smart about it is all.

You're not the first to think of this, but yes, it is clever. Got an answer here that mostly shoots this down though, but doesn't explicitly do so.

Quote

Kurkistan

Speaking of time bubbles, can iron and steel and emotional Allomancy go beyond the boundaries of time bubbles; like if I'm inside a time bubble can I just like super Steelpush outside?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, time bubbles interfere with almost all forms of Investiture.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

7 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

But looking at all these potential tricks, the real strength to a modern Mistborn is that they'd have all of these options at anytime, barring the Allomantic Grenades that is, meaning that they'll always have some kind of trick to help them win a fight. Need to trap someone for a while? Use a Double Bubble. Need to rapid fire Duralumin Steelpushes? Use a Speedbubble to have time to replenish your metals. Need to heal from mortal injuries but aren't a Bloodmaker? Burn a ton of pewter and duralumin to recover really fast.

The point is that a smart, well trained Mistborn with all metals, will probably always have some kind of answer to almost any problem. 

And if we're including access to equipment like Primer Cubes and Unsealed Metalminds, then by Harmony what have we created? Even just Unkeyed Metalminds would be ludicrous. 

As for this, it creates a really interesting scenario that could be discussed. Spoiler for Brandon talking about plans for future Mistborn Books:

Spoiler

Chris-Tina

My question: What exactly does the Mistborn sequel series entail?

Brandon Sanderson

Several hundred years after the original trilogy—Spoiler alert!—Wait, aren't these questions supposed to be about WARBREAKER?

Anyway, the Mistborn sequel trilogy, as I've said before, takes place in a more technologically advanced version of the world, several hundred years later. They've progressed beyond steam technology to combustion engine technology, are building skyscrapers—that level of technology. It will follow the exploits of a team of Allomancers who are kind of like an Allomantic SWAT team, a group of hybrid mercenary/deputized individuals who are brought in by the police to take out Allomancer criminals. The first book will deal with when they are called in to deal with a Mistborn serial killer. That's how it starts. It will go bizarre from there, of course, but think guns, cars, skyscrapers, and Allomancers.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

Spoiler

Argent

You've dropped a few tidbits about the plot of the next Mistborn series over the years. Putting all those things together, we have a nicrosil Ferring Terriswoman hacker recruited for fieldwork in an "Allomancer SWAT team" to chase a Mistborn serial killer. Could you give us a more recent and concise pitch/blurb if the above is no longer accurate?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha. That's not far off, as all of those things still exist in the series, though the weight I'll give them is relative. With the Alloy series covering some of the police procedural aspect of storytelling, I'm inching the outlines slowly away from the SWAT idea and toward more spy thriller--but the SWAT team isn't not gone completely. (Of course, who knows what will happen in the intervening years between now and when I write it.)

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

Spoiler

Now Brandon has used pieces of the original concept in Era 2, so we might not get a team called in to take down a Mistborn serial killer since we already have a lot of police procedure and the cops hunting a serial killer in SoS, but the scenario is still different enough that it begs the question. If you have to take down a modern rogue Mistborn, how do you do it with regular Mistings and Ferrings? This is different enough from Bleeder's loadout to introduce a fascinating problem to try to solve.

Now we could brainstorm this - if you have a team of Metalborn, how do you take down a fully loaded Mistborn?

 

Side note, I'll add in one more strategy for the Mistborn with Allomantic grenades: it would be super expensive on resources, but they should be able to use the grenades to make alternating Bendalloy bubbles to continuously stay in sped up time and tunnel across a space. Burn Bendalloy, charge cube simultaneously, walk to boundary, release grenade, stop burning Bendalloy, walk to the edge of the grenade's bubble, burn Bendalloy, walk back and retrieve the grenade after it has spent its charge, repeat. With practice, a Mistborn could barely charge the cube enough to let the Mistborn lob the cube to the edge of their bubble, run across it, put up their bubble, immediately recall the grenade by Pulling on a metal tag as it drops its bubble, catch, charge with Bendalloy, throw, repeat. Actually, any reason Wayne couldn't have pulled this off? He wouldn't have been able to do is as fast a Mistborn that could Pull the grenade back, but unless I'm missing something, he should have been able to use speed bubbles and a grenade to tunnel across a room. I know people have theorized about this with multiple Sliders, anyone see why a lone Slider or Mistborn with a grenade couldn't do the same?

[Trusk'our he/him]

12 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Anyone adding in Allomantic grenades into the Mistborn's arsenal? That's when it starts really getting complicated and terrifying. When the Mistborn lobs a cube and you have no idea if you're going to get a Steelpush behind your position, Leeched, Cadmium Bubble, Nicroburst, blanket Soothing, or Ironpull... that's really hard to adapt to short of trying to shoot the grenade out of the air. This flexibility is something that even a group of Mistings would have a hard time replicating during the fast-paced fights that generally happen around Mistborn. Mistborn with a grenade can use strategies that people just flat out don't do, because running into a group and Pulling on everything strongly is usually suicide, but an Allomantic grenade can do that for you. You'd need Wax levels of precision, but you could use a tossed Ironpull grenade to bend your shots around corners or simply draw fire. Lobbing multiple grenades can cause mass havoc as well by throwing up A-Cadmium deadzones, Soothing, or Steelpushes.  When fighting a group without a Coinshot or Lurcher (because either they don't have one or you killed them), you can attach a metal tag to the grenade to Pull it back to you after it has spent its charge - as long as you didn't charge it with Steel or Iron.

Based on this WoB, some powers that normally can only be used personally can be granted in an AoE.  Confirmed ones are Duralumin boosting a target and Aluminum creating a nullified zone.

So... Can you grant someone a sudden burst of A-Tin, or Gold Shadows? In the right circumstances that could be as disorienting as a Soothing but one that most people can't prepare for unless they have had this specific stunt used on them. Lob an A-Tin grenade and fire off some of Ranette's Tineye Hazekiller rounds or a flash bang and you've got some nasty ways to disable a group. This could be useful even against a group in bulletproof Hazekiller armor with a Slider that can break out of Cadmium bubbles (sure that's a specific example, but we're looking at who would be fighting a Mistborn).

With Duralumin now readily available in addition to the grenades, Mistborn can now setup different powers to shield themselves between Duralumin bursts. Sure, Bendalloy is a fantastic opportunity maker, but holding a A-Steel cube making a Steelbubble right after you blasted their group with a Duralumin Steelpush to extend your push (possibly even using it to stop a fall) and you've got some good flexibility - even if you are running low on certain metals. 

Add in all of the strategies others have listed, particularly the power of unexpected Nicrobursting a group of Mistings, and a lot of the close range drawbacks for many Mistborn powers can be removed. Sure, the enemy can pick them up and use them against you, but unless they have a full Mistborn as well, they won't have anywhere close to the same number of strategies. Start with a Leeching and you might not even have to worry about them using your grenade against you as you wade in with lead, Pewter, and Steel.

Ooo, good point on primer cubes, especially on tin and gold.

Don't forget that the Mistborn can also pull a Marasi by burning duralumin with cadmium before transferring it to a cube, greatly expanding its power.

The same could apply for iron, steel, or tin and gold sensitivity. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Don't forget that the Mistborn can also pull a Marasi by burning duralumin with cadmium before transferring it to a cube, greatly expanding its power.

The same could apply for iron, steel, or tin and gold sensitivity. 

I'm pretty sure you can't 'Charge up' a Primer Cube with two Allomantic powers at once, at least not the ones we've seen thus far. It seems plausible enough to create a 'Dual Charge' Primer Cube that could do that though. Which would be even more devasting, doubling the number of simultaneous effects of a Primer Cube. Imagine one that could Pull metal towards it and inflict disorienting Gold Shadows on whoever comes too close.

[Trusk'our he/him]

26 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm pretty sure you can't 'Charge up' a Primer Cube with two Allomantic powers at once, at least not the ones we've seen thus far. It seems plausible enough to create a 'Dual Charge' Primer Cube that could do that though. Which would be even more devasting, doubling the number of simultaneous effects of a Primer Cube. Imagine one that could Pull metal towards it and inflict disorienting Gold Shadows on whoever comes too close.

Sorry, the way I said it probably led to that conclusion, but I mean to say them as separate things (tin or gold for stunning, cadmium for freezing them, or steel or iron to manipulate positioning or cause damage).

Does make me wonder if two pieces of Harmonium could be harnessed simultaneously by one device though, which just might allow for multiple effects via the same cube.