Shallan’s hair

[Sophiee]

 

A have a genuine question for anyone in the fandom who might care. It is not something of importance and really quite trivial but i feel i need to ask it.

I’ve read all the stormlight books multiple times, (though its been a hot minute) and all throughout i’ve imagined Shallan to be a realistic version of Merida from brave. Save the freckles and different eyes, but you probably get the idea.

Now, for the first time, i’ve been looking at fanart to see how different everyone perceives the characters (which i find very fun) and i can’t help but notice how Shallans hair is often barely wavy.

My question is if anyone knows why, as i’m convinced she was described as having large curly hair. 

Sorry for the silly post and if it is the wrong place to ask, i’m not used to this.

hopefully i did not misremember, that would be embarrassing 

Edited July 28 by Sophiee
grammar, spelling

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Sophiee said:

A have a genuine question for anyone in the fandom who might care. It is not something of importance and really quite trivial but i feel i need to ask it.

I’ve read all the stormlight books multiple times, (though its been a hot minute) and all throughout i’ve imagined Shallan to be a realistic version of Merida from brave. Save the freckles and different eyes, but you probably get the idea.

Now, for the first time i’ve been looking at fanart to see how different everyone perceives the characters (which i find very fun) and i can’t help but notice how Shallans hair is often barely wavy.

My question is if anyone knows why, as i’m convinced she was described as having large curly hair. 

Sorry for the silly post and if it is the wrong place to ask, i’m not used to this.

hopefully i did not misremember, that would be embarrassing 

Welcome to the Shard!

Not really, I've always viewed her with straight hair. Although looking at a few descriptions of her from WoK and WoR, it wasn't mentioned if her hair were wavy or straight, so there might be some freedom of visualization working to your advantage. I remember Shallan having troubles with making her hairstyle sometimes, with her hair being in chaos, described as a flurry, unruly, loose, blowing free etc, so maybe that's where it came from? You might have subconsciously associated the movement of hair, or chaotic hairstyle, with curly hair and the image of Merida came to your mind as the closest fit. And there is nothing wrong with it.

I've found ONLY one mention of straight red hair in WoR ch 63 (nothing in all other books, but I'm searching using "red hair," "straight hair" and "curly hair" phrases):

Quote

That done, she reached up and tucked her straight red hair—the only part of her that threatened to pop out of the illusion—inside the back of her coat.

[Sophiee]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Welcome to the Shard!

Not really, I've always viewed her with straight hair. Although looking at a few descriptions of her from WoK and WoR, it wasn't mentioned if her hair were wavy or straight, so there might be some freedom of visualization working to your advantage. I remember Shallan having troubles with making her hairstyle sometimes, with her hair being in chaos, described as a flurry, unruly, loose, blowing free etc, so maybe that's where it came from? You might have subconsciously associated the movement of hair, or chaotic hairstyle, with curly hair and the image of Merida came to your mind as the closest fit. And there is nothing wrong with it.

I've found ONLY one mention of straight red hair in WoR ch 63 (nothing in all other books, but I'm searching using "red hair," "straight hair" and "curly hair" phrases):

 

Thank you for welcoming me!

I found the description i based my headcanon on, it’s in WoK (i assume that means Way of Kings) I believe this is the first description of her

Quote

She has light blue eyes and auburn-red hair – a manifestation of her impure family line – which she wears long and straight down her back, with only its natural curl to give it body

I took the natural curl to mean curly, since if it was a wave it would have been described as so, maybe this all stems from different understandings of what that is though. Maybe your idea of it being straight comes from the “straight down her back” part?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Sophiee said:

Thank you for welcoming me!

I found the description i based my headcanon on, it’s in WoK (i assume that means Way of Kings) I believe this is the first description of her

Quote

She has light blue eyes and auburn-red hair – a manifestation of her impure family line – which she wears long and straight down her back, with only its natural curl to give it body

I took the natural curl to mean curly, since if it was a wave it would have been described as so, maybe this all stems from different understandings of what that is though. Maybe your idea of it being straight comes from the “straight down her back” part?

This is weird, I'm guessing this is from WoK ch 3 (yes, it's Way of Kings, we use acronyms here a lot), but in my version the sentence is quite different - no mention of either straight or curl:

Quote

Tozbek began making dock arrangements for his ship. He was a good man. As for his praise of her supposed beauty, she took that for what it was. A kind, if overstated, mark of aection. She was pale-skinned in an era when Alethi tan was seen as the mark of true beauty, and though she had light blue eyes, her impure family line was manifest in her auburn-red hair. Not a single lock of proper black. Her freckles had faded as she reached young womanhood—Heralds be blessed—but there were still some visible, dusting her cheeks and nose.

I guess you have a different, newer edition.

I would interpret your quote as Shallan doesn't have curvy hair like Merida, more a little wavy ones - not too much, but not totally straight. Merida's hair doesn't go straight down her back - they go everywhere.

My image of Shallan is mostly based on the official artwork from the front endpaper of WoR, made by Michael Whelan (Words of Radiance):

Spoiler

 

[Sophiee]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

This is weird, I'm guessing this is from WoK ch 3 (yes, it's Way of Kings, we use acronyms here a lot), but in my version the sentence is quite different - no mention of either straight or curl:

I guess you have a different, newer edition.

I would interpret your quote as Shallan doesn't have curvy hair like Merida, more a little wavy ones - not too much, but not totally straight. Merida's hair doesn't go straight down her back - they go everywhere.

My image of Shallan is mostly based on the official artwork from the front endpaper of WoR, made by Michael Whelan (Words of Radiance):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Ah, yeah that is strange, wouldn’t expect there to be dish a stark difference. I guess that explains it.

I wonder what Sanderson has in his own mind, would be interesting to know

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

Are you by chance reading a translation of the books? Alder's is what I'm seeing as well. 

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Sophiee said:

I wonder what Sanderson has in his own mind, would be interesting to know

The artwork from WoR is almost a perfect representation of Brandon’s image of Shallan, WoBs (relevant parts bolded):

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

So, that's Kaladin, I assume, on the front of Words of Radiance. Does that look like him, or not?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but he redid the picture. Yes, there will be a different Kaladin on the front. He actually redid the cover, Whelan did. So, it looks better, but it still doesn't look 100% like... Getting across the ethnic sense is a little harder.  He hasn't quite gotten Kaladin down, in my head. No one has, even the sketches that I got to do early on, the concept sketches didn't capture him. They got Dalinar, and the Shallan are perfect, they're dead-on. But the concept art for Kaladin just didn't work.

Steelheart release party (Sept. 24, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Happilymarriedman

I'm currently working on a novel myself. I'm having some issues visualizing the characters I can write descriptions all day long. How often does an author come to you and give you a relatively vague description of what they are seeking, is there an extra cost for dreaming that stuff up?

Ben McSweeney

Well, generally speaking there's always going to be a cost if you're commissioning someone to illustrate your descriptions. Before you go to the expense, one suggestion I might put forward is to cast a few actors in the roles. Don't tell anyone who you choose, but if there's someone out there who would perfectly fit the role, cast them in your notes and then use Google Image and IMDB to collect reference and let that lead you. Also, don't overdo the descriptions when you do get down to the actual words-on-the-page... Pick a few notable features, be consistent, and allow the rest to be inferred.

Brandon is actually not very interested in portraiture for the published art in the novels... you may notice that we very rarely show anyone's full face in our illustrations. Part of this is because Brandon doesn't want to force the reader into imagining the characters looking just one way... the image you create in your mind when you read a description is yours, it's the part of your reading experience that you create and it should be as valid as anyone's.

That being said, I got to help Michael with Shallan's portrait in the Words endpages, and that was great fun for me as well as leading to a better, more accurate Shallan.

Ben McSweeney AMA (Oct. 6, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I just noticed stylistically the cover for Oathbringer is a little bit different. Is that still Michael Whelan?

Brandon Sanderson

That's still Michael Whelan. Yeah, Michael is really-- Michael is my favorite illustrator. I don't know if you guys know-- have read what I've written-- but I got into fantasy and science fiction because of Dragonsbane-- the cover of that. They say you can't judge a book by its cover, but it was Dragonsbane and then I went to the card catalog and found the next book closest to it that looked-- that was a dragon book. So I didn't know dragon books, and I found Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey, which also had a Whelan cover at that point. And I just kind of-- Whelan became my go to. He's gone through various art stages, you can go look. For a while he was doing these really sweeping landscapes, as you see some of the Dark Tower covers have that, and Way of Kings-- the original-- has that. And he's occasionally done figure studies, through his career. And then with this one we're getting like a color study really, it feels like to me, which is another thing that he's done. So I kind of feel like I've gotten three different styles of covers from Michael, which I really like. I actually think his Shallan painting from the inside cover of Words of Radiance is my favorite. But that one came about because he's like, "I felt like painting Shallan," and he just did. *laughter* "Do you guys want this? I just painted it." It's really funny because Michael Whelan, like, it's really hard to get him for a cover. I mean, you know his prices are way higher. And then when he just accidentally does another cover for you. It was very cool but kind of weird. I own The Way of Kings, like the actual original. I'm so happy, like I-- after all these years of admiring Michael Whelan I had to buy that one. So it hangs in my office above the fireplace.

Ad Astra 2017 (May 5, 2017)

And here is a WoB with a real photo that's a good representation of a redheaded Veden woman (not Shallan specifically):

Spoiler

zotsandscrambles

Here is an example of a Mongolian girl with red hair. Would she make a good example of a Vedan darkeyes, [Brandon]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's a good example. Though do remember, Vedens aren't all redheads--that's going to depend on region, and even have a lot of variance within regions. (Alethi skin tone will be similar in its variety, depending. Vedens in general tend to be lighter.)

Here's another image I noticed a while back that feels very like what I'd imagined.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/55dba2321400002e002e3dd1.jpeg?ops=scalefit_970_noupscale

General Reddit 2018 (April 17, 2018)

[Ookla she/her]

I've always imagined Shallan's hair to be a bit wavy, but that's mostly because my hair is a bit wavy.

There's a fun writing anecdote that talks about this; I think it was Asimov who someone came up to and complained that he didn't write enough character details into his book. He told the person to ask four or five different women what they thought the character in question looked like, and they each described someone that looked a lot like themselves.

So, basically, I think my perception of myself influences how I imagine the character. I have never imagined any of the Stormlight characters as looking Asian, except maybe Jasnah, but I think that's mainly because I am not Asian. My natural inclination is to imagine characters as looking closer to the way I do. Just because I know that Kaladin and Adolin and Shallan and such look Asian doesn't mean I see them in my head that way.

However, I don't often imagine faces. Most of these characters are just vague figures in my head anyway. I do think it's really up to the reader to decide what the story looks like to them. 

[Sophiee]

13 hours ago, AonEne said:

Are you by chance reading a translation of the books? Alder's is what I'm seeing as well. 

The first time i read the books i read the UK ones, (they cut each book into two parts) and that’s the version i quoted from, i did go back now since i own the three first books in my books app and found the same quote as alder in that, so i have truly no clue. I always read in english so i dont believe its a translation problem (why would you even randomly add that as a translation, seems strange) I checked a couple of fandom pages and under description quite a lot had my original quote as her description, so i’m not sure where it comes from. (maybe just a newer version? as alder guessed) 

9 hours ago, Ookla said:

I've always imagined Shallan's hair to be a bit wavy, but that's mostly because my hair is a bit wavy.

There's a fun writing anecdote that talks about this; I think it was Asimov who someone came up to and complained that he didn't write enough character details into his book. He told the person to ask four or five different women what they thought the character in question looked like, and they each described someone that looked a lot like themselves.

So, basically, I think my perception of myself influences how I imagine the character. I have never imagined any of the Stormlight characters as looking Asian, except maybe Jasnah, but I think that's mainly because I am not Asian. My natural inclination is to imagine characters as looking closer to the way I do. Just because I know that Kaladin and Adolin and Shallan and such look Asian doesn't mean I see them in my head that way.

However, I don't often imagine faces. Most of these characters are just vague figures in my head anyway. I do think it's really up to the reader to decide what the story looks like to them. 

That could be the case, though it’s the same for me with wavy dark red hair (it’s uncannily close to how Shallans is depicted, just a bit shorter and darker)

I tend to imagine characters as people i’ve seen or know personally, and maybe because i’m from sweden, where really curly hair in Meridas way is extremely common i imagined it that way (might explain why all my friends also had the same image of her, since they’re also swedish) 

It probably added to my headcanon that if you have hair like shallan, calling it even wavy will get you ridiculed here, calling you attention seeking since it’s obviously straight. 

it’s quite interesting how different people perceive characters different! 

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

The artwork from WoR is almost a perfect representation of Brandon’s image of Shallan, WoBs (relevant parts bolded):

  Reveal hidden contents

[...]

Questioner

So, that's Kaladin, I assume, on the front of Words of Radiance. Does that look like him, or not?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but he redid the picture. Yes, there will be a different Kaladin on the front. He actually redid the cover, Whelan did. So, it looks better, but it still doesn't look 100% like... Getting across the ethnic sense is a little harder.  He hasn't quite gotten Kaladin down, in my head. No one has, even the sketches that I got to do early on, the concept sketches didn't capture him. They got Dalinar, and the Shallan are perfect, they're dead-on. But the concept art for Kaladin just didn't work.

Steelheart release party (Sept. 24, 2013)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Happilymarriedman

I'm currently working on a novel myself. I'm having some issues visualizing the characters I can write descriptions all day long. How often does an author come to you and give you a relatively vague description of what they are seeking, is there an extra cost for dreaming that stuff up?

Ben McSweeney

Well, generally speaking there's always going to be a cost if you're commissioning someone to illustrate your descriptions. Before you go to the expense, one suggestion I might put forward is to cast a few actors in the roles. Don't tell anyone who you choose, but if there's someone out there who would perfectly fit the role, cast them in your notes and then use Google Image and IMDB to collect reference and let that lead you. Also, don't overdo the descriptions when you do get down to the actual words-on-the-page... Pick a few notable features, be consistent, and allow the rest to be inferred.

Brandon is actually not very interested in portraiture for the published art in the novels... you may notice that we very rarely show anyone's full face in our illustrations. Part of this is because Brandon doesn't want to force the reader into imagining the characters looking just one way... the image you create in your mind when you read a description is yours, it's the part of your reading experience that you create and it should be as valid as anyone's.

That being said, I got to help Michael with Shallan's portrait in the Words endpages, and that was great fun for me as well as leading to a better, more accurate Shallan.

Ben McSweeney AMA (Oct. 6, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I just noticed stylistically the cover for Oathbringer is a little bit different. Is that still Michael Whelan?

Brandon Sanderson

That's still Michael Whelan. Yeah, Michael is really-- Michael is my favorite illustrator. I don't know if you guys know-- have read what I've written-- but I got into fantasy and science fiction because of Dragonsbane-- the cover of that. They say you can't judge a book by its cover, but it was Dragonsbane and then I went to the card catalog and found the next book closest to it that looked-- that was a dragon book. So I didn't know dragon books, and I found Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey, which also had a Whelan cover at that point. And I just kind of-- Whelan became my go to. He's gone through various art stages, you can go look. For a while he was doing these really sweeping landscapes, as you see some of the Dark Tower covers have that, and Way of Kings-- the original-- has that. And he's occasionally done figure studies, through his career. And then with this one we're getting like a color study really, it feels like to me, which is another thing that he's done. So I kind of feel like I've gotten three different styles of covers from Michael, which I really like. I actually think his Shallan painting from the inside cover of Words of Radiance is my favorite. But that one came about because he's like, "I felt like painting Shallan," and he just did. *laughter* "Do you guys want this? I just painted it." It's really funny because Michael Whelan, like, it's really hard to get him for a cover. I mean, you know his prices are way higher. And then when he just accidentally does another cover for you. It was very cool but kind of weird. I own The Way of Kings, like the actual original. I'm so happy, like I-- after all these years of admiring Michael Whelan I had to buy that one. So it hangs in my office above the fireplace.

Ad Astra 2017 (May 5, 2017)

And here is a WoB with a real photo that's a good representation of a redheaded Veden woman (not Shallan specifically):

  Reveal hidden contents

zotsandscrambles

Here is an example of a Mongolian girl with red hair. Would she make a good example of a Vedan darkeyes, [Brandon]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's a good example. Though do remember, Vedens aren't all redheads--that's going to depend on region, and even have a lot of variance within regions. (Alethi skin tone will be similar in its variety, depending. Vedens in general tend to be lighter.)

Here's another image I noticed a while back that feels very like what I'd imagined.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/55dba2321400002e002e3dd1.jpeg?ops=scalefit_970_noupscale

General Reddit 2018 (April 17, 2018)

That’s so cool (maybe obvious) but i’m not really active in the fandom or looking at what Sanderson has said, I only read the books. So i would have never had any idea! That is really fascinating, thank you for sharing.

I would have never imagined her as having as many freckles as that girl, but maybe since it’s a representation of a dark-eyed woman she has more? 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Sophiee said:

The first time i read the books i read the UK ones, (they cut each book into two parts) and that’s the version i quoted from, i did go back now since i own the three first books in my books app and found the same quote as alder in that, so i have truly no clue. I always read in english so i dont believe its a translation problem (why would you even randomly add that as a translation, seems strange) I checked a couple of fandom pages and under description quite a lot had my original quote as her description, so i’m not sure where it comes from. (maybe just a newer version? as alder guessed) 

Interestingly:

18 hours ago, Sophiee said:

which she wears long and straight down her back, with only its natural curl to give it body

The portion about the "natural curl" is in Shallan's description in WoR (Ch 47):

Spoiler

 But she also knew she needed to impress him. Her efforts with Highlady Navani had not been fruitful so far, and she really did need an alliance with the Kholin house.

That made her consider. Her hair had dried, but she tended to keep it long and straight down her back, with only its natural curl to give it body. The Alethi women favored intricate braids instead.

Her skin was pale and dusted lightly with freckles, and her body was nowhere near curvaceous enough to inspire envy.

Which makes me wonder if the original UK WoK was created from a slightly earlier draft, which was changed before publication in the US - but this description was moved to WoR for <reasons>. Would not be the first time that a overseas publisher worked off of a non-final draft (they too, have a long publication process, so if the agreement gave them a version before the final copy edit, they might not have received the changes, or elected not to use all of the changes). 

Also, possibly of note, near your original quote Jasnah's hair is described as having many tight curls (like your Brave reference) - but kept in check with braids and a bun. WoK CH 5:

Spoiler

She was tall and slender, with clear skin, narrow black eyebrows, and thick, deep onyx hair. She wore part of it up, wrapped around a small, scroll-shaped golden ornament with two long hairpins holding it in place. The rest tumbled down behind her neck in small, tight curls. Even twisted and curled as it was, it came down to Jasnah’s shoulders—if left unbound, it would be as long as Shallan’s hair, reaching past the middle of her back.

Hope that helps

[Sophiee]

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Interestingly:

The portion about the "natural curl" is in Shallan's description in WoR (Ch 47):

  Reveal hidden contents

 But she also knew she needed to impress him. Her efforts with Highlady Navani had not been fruitful so far, and she really did need an alliance with the Kholin house.

That made her consider. Her hair had dried, but she tended to keep it long and straight down her back, with only its natural curl to give it body. The Alethi women favored intricate braids instead.

Her skin was pale and dusted lightly with freckles, and her body was nowhere near curvaceous enough to inspire envy.

Which makes me wonder if the original UK WoK was created from a slightly earlier draft, which was changed before publication in the US - but this description was moved to WoR for <reasons>. Would not be the first time that a overseas publisher worked off of a non-final draft (they too, have a long publication process, so if the agreement gave them a version before the final copy edit, they might not have received the changes, or elected not to use all of the changes). 

Also, possibly of note, near your original quote Jasnah's hair is described as having many tight curls (like your Brave reference) - but kept in check with braids and a bun. WoK CH 5:

  Hide contents

She was tall and slender, with clear skin, narrow black eyebrows, and thick, deep onyx hair. She wore part of it up, wrapped around a small, scroll-shaped golden ornament with two long hairpins holding it in place. The rest tumbled down behind her neck in small, tight curls. Even twisted and curled as it was, it came down to Jasnah’s shoulders—if left unbound, it would be as long as Shallan’s hair, reaching past the middle of her back.

Hope that helps

that’s so interesting!

I think i might tend to ignore some character descriptions on accident since i’ve always imagined Jasnah being both straighter hair, maybe a bit wavy.

I had no idea this topic would actually have substance behind it (i though it was just different interpretations of what a “natural curl” was) 

You all have so much insight

[Ookla she/her]

5 hours ago, Sophiee said:

that’s so interesting!

I think i might tend to ignore some character descriptions on accident since i’ve always imagined Jasnah being both straighter hair, maybe a bit wavy.

I had no idea this topic would actually have substance behind it (i though it was just different interpretations of what a “natural curl” was) 

You all have so much insight

I am likewise surprised. I've always imagined Jasnah as looking very like Princess Jasmine from the live-action Aladdin Disney put out a few years ago, only more mature and put-together.