Who’s talking to Kaladin? / Who is the Wind discussion

[Ashbringer he/him]

One other thing that's probably worth mentioning

(Sunlit Man)

Spoiler

Nomad was expecting to see Kaladin in that moment on Canticle, which raises questions if he's as old as he says.

 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

46 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

One other thing that's probably worth mentioning

(Sunlit Man)

  Reveal hidden contents

Nomad was expecting to see Kaladin in that moment on Canticle, which raises questions if he's as old as he says.

 

TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

But he sounded very uncertain. It definitely could have been a “Kaladin’s dead, how is he here now?”

 Sanderson was careful not to spoil what happens to Kaladin.

 

[Diomedes]

On 8/8/2024 at 3:50 AM, Ashbringer said:

I think the main question for if the voice is Tanavast is, why now? 

Previously we didn't have more than a hint that Tanavast could still be around. With him being one of the premiere Storm-faker candidates, that's changed a bit. But then why did the Tanavast give Gavilar the full intercommunication, then give Dalinar the "prerecorded messages"? Especially if Tanavast was then also talking to Dalinar specifically, if only for a time.

I also thought about this. Maybe it is connected to the revitalization of Urithiru. The place is so heavily invested now, that the borders between the physical and spiritual realms could be diffusing. Kind of like when Dalinar "united" the realms at the end of OB and then heard Evi from the spiritual realms speaking to him.  

I don`t think Tanavast was talking to Dalinar or Gavilar the way he is speaking to Kaladin now though.  

[RefusesToElaborate]

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

I also thought about this. Maybe it is connected to the revitalization of Urithiru. The place is so heavily invested now, that the borders between the physical and spiritual realms could be diffusing. Kind of like when Dalinar "united" the realms at the end of OB and then heard Evi from the spiritual realms speaking to him.  

I don`t think Tanavast was talking to Dalinar or Gavilar the way he is speaking to Kaladin now though.  

Alternatively, he's just passed into the fourth ideal. And before that a beautiful Elantrian thought Kal was heavily, heavily invested.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

2 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Alternatively, he's just passed into the fourth ideal. And before that a beautiful Elantrian thought Kal was heavily, heavily invested.

There are plenty of Shallan theories, but now you’re making me wonder if Kaladin is related to a herald or something. He’s the “child of Tanavast”. Maybe his survival curse is more than a coincidence…

[GudThymes he/him]

6 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

There are plenty of Shallan theories, but now you’re making me wonder if Kaladin is related to a herald or something. He’s the “child of Tanavast”. Maybe his survival curse is more than a coincidence…

I've always thought that Kal was truthfully a descendant of Tanavast. I interpret the story about Nomom that is in world used to say why the Natanatan people have blue skin to be an interpretation of true events. That a mortal became impregnated by Tanavast and then spawned a lineage of "children of Tanavast". It's just that they weren't the Natanatan people.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

49 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I've always thought that Kal was truthfully a descendant of Tanavast. I interpret the story about Nomom that is in world used to say why the Natanatan people have blue skin to be an interpretation of true events. That a mortal became impregnated by Tanavast and then spawned a lineage of "children of Tanavast". It's just that they weren't the Natanatan people.

I don't think it's literal because of these two:

Spoiler

Just_A_Silvereye

Would the Stormfather call Tien or Oroden "Son of Tanavast"?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're hunting here. I'm gonna say RAFO. Don't read too much into that RAFO. Because the answer is actually "it depends." And that's why I'm RAFOing it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Spoiler

AlwaysTheNextOne

Does Kaladin have a mixed heritage. Like maybe Yolish and Rosharan?

Brandon Sanderson

One thing I wanted to be very careful about in writing the Stormlight books is to stray away from people needing some kind of past or heritage to be special—it's okay for this to be for some characters, but it becomes a crutch. So your answer is no, he doesn't have much secret to his heritage. (Though his mother grew up wealthy for a darkeyes, and that's a little odd.)

Footnote: Brandon has mentioned Hesina's comparatively wealthier background several times, including mentioning that one of her parents are not darkeyed.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 16, 2020)

If "it depends" whether Oroden and Tien would be called that then presumably it's not just a genealogy thing, and in the second one Brandon directly says Kaladin's heritage doesn't have any big secrets like that.

[GudThymes he/him]

31 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

don't think it's literal because of these two:

  Reveal hidden contents

Just_A_Silvereye

Would the Stormfather call Tien or Oroden "Son of Tanavast"?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're hunting here. I'm gonna say RAFO. Don't read too much into that RAFO. Because the answer is actually "it depends." And that's why I'm RAFOing it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

  Reveal hidden contents

Shucks. Still possible but not enough to hold onto any hope for it.

As an aside I'm an continually impressed with this fandom for one getting such great questions to Sanderson and two having the ability to find/recall WoBs like literally everytime someone has any thoughts. (I mean that with the utmost respect)

[teknopathetic he/him]

Do we think there is a Roshar spren? Could that be what is talking to Kal? 

Edited August 9 by teknopathetic

[Ashbringer he/him]

49 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Do we think there is a Roshar spren? Could that be what is talking to Kal? 

I’ve seen some theories about there being a Roshar-Spren… but I think half of them think that it’s going to be Ba-Ado-Mishram.

The Unmade are another one of those pretty big mysteries. Nothing about them makes sense.

 

If we are going with Tanavast, it’s possible something changed in RoW that let him act more independently from the Stormfather. Any of the previous words seemed to only occur when the Stormfather was present, while this one is not. (What that change is could be a lot of things - Sibling, 4th Oath, heck even Dalinar forcibly Connecting to Kaladin.)

[alder24]

I've found some interesting quotes about wind/voice Kaladin heard at some points. 

Spoiler

This one, found by accident, sparked me to search for more. The wind is speaking the 1st Ideal to Kaladin. WoK ch 43:

Quote

A cold wind blew through the corridor of stone, washing over him, bringing crisp, fresh scents and blowing away the stink of rotting corpses. Nobody cared for the bridgemen.
Nobody cared for those at the bottom, with the darkest eyes. And yet, that wind seemed to whisper to him over and over. Life before death. Life before death. Live before you die.

 Unknown voice, previously I associated it with the Stormfather, now I'm not certain. WoK ch 67:

Quote

THE WORDS, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind. In that moment, Kaladin was amazed to realize that he knew them, though they’d never been told to him.

Wind, as seen by humans, has a will of its own - this might not be just about Windspren. WoR ch 1:

Quote

“No,” Jasnah said. “You’re right.” The woman narrowed her eyes. “By my best guess, spren are elements of the Cognitive Realm that have leaked into the physical world. They’re concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience, perhaps because of human intervention.
“Think of a man who gets angry often. Think of how his friends and family might start referring to that anger as a beast, as a thing that possesses him, as something external to him. Humans personify. We speak of the wind as if it has a will of its own.
“Spren are those ideas—the ideas of collective human experience— somehow come alive."

The wind is guiding Kaladin when fighting with Szeth. WoR ch 32:

Quote

The assassin stepped over Adolin, who stirred but did not rise. “I am sorry,” the assassin said, Stormlight streaming from his mouth. “I don’t want to do this.”
“I won’t give you the chance,” Kaladin growled, dashing forward. Syl spun around him, and he felt the wind stirring. He felt the tempest raging, urging him onward. He came at the assassin with the remnant of his spear wielded like a quarterstaff, and felt the wind guiding him.

Again, wind is helping him. WoR ch 52:

Quote

Kaladin charged through the chasm, and the wind joined him, blowing at his back. Syl soared before him as a ribbon of light.
[...]
He felt as if something were boosting him from behind, the wind itself carrying him.

The wind is present when Kaladin is fighting with Shardbearers in the arena and it seems like something is even urging him to survive and guiding him - until he run out of Stormlight. WoR ch 57:

Quote

The wind began to blow around him. Syl returned to him, zipping through the air as a ribbon of light.
[...]
Wind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack—didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.
Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt—impossibly—that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.
[...]
You could not kill the wind. You could not stop it. It was beyond the touch of men. It was infinite. . . .
His Stormlight ran out.

The wind is absent without Syl and with his bond nearly broken, but it's also the middle of Weeping so who knows. WoR ch 81:

Quote

His balance was off, and his leg screamed. The rain didn’t accompany him; it just annoyed him. Worse, the wind didn’t blow. The air felt stale.

A stretch, but wind blew when Kaladin had sworn the 3rd Ideal. WoR ch 84:

Quote

“Kaladin!” Syl’s voice. “Stretch forth thy hand!” She zipped around him, suddenly visible as a ribbon of light.
“I can’t . . .” Kaladin said, drained.
“Stretch forth thy hand!”
He reached out a trembling hand. Moash hesitated.
Wind blew in the opening in the wall, and Syl’s ribbon of light became mist, a form she often took.

Interesting distinction between winds and storms, WoR ch 86:

Quote

“No. The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood. You are the trespasser here. Not me.”
[...]
He might be master of the winds, but storms were another thing.
[...]
Kaladin looked toward the sky. He was free once again. Winds surged beneath him, seeming to lift him, propel him. Carry him.

The winds are of Honor, Syl said. OB ch 6:

Quote

“Because I do,” Syl said, flitting around him. “Everyone is connected, Kaladin. Everything is connected. I didn’t know you then, but the winds did, and I am of the winds.”
“You’re honorspren.”
“The winds are of Honor,” she said, laughing as if he’d said something ridiculous. “We are kindred blood.”

OB ch 120:

Quote

Kaladin launched at Amaram. The highprince swung, but the winds themselves curled around Kaladin, and he anticipated the attack.

The wind started talking to him? Is this about Syl or something else? RoW ch 80:

Quote

Each time the wind spoke, it broke something inside Kal. Ever since he could remember—since childhood—he had loved the wind. The feel of it on his skin meant he was free. Meant he was alive. It brought new scents, clean and fresh. The wind had always been there, his friend, his companion, his ally. Until one day it had come to life and started talking to him.

 

 

I maybe went way overboard while searching those quotes in every book, but there is a special relationship between Kaladin and the wind. Too many times the wind was guiding him, giving him almost precognitive abilities and and in some cases it seems suspiciously similar to Vin's relation with the Mists. WoT is not the first time when the wind spoke to him. Is that Tanavast? Is the wind alive? Maybe the Shard of Honor - the power itself - is looking for a new Vessel? Hard to say, but the wind is related to Honor and there is something happening between it and Kaladin. 

Edited August 9 by alder24

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I maybe went way overboard while searching those quotes in every book, but there is a special relationship between Kaladin and the wind.

Fascinating info from the RPG server (green name = Brotherwise staff):

Spoiler

So yeah, Kaladin's got some special wind stuff going on.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Fascinating info from the RPG server (green name = Brotherwise staff):

  Reveal hidden contents

So yeah, Kaladin's got some special wind stuff going on.

There's a server for the RPG?

Ooooh I should join in on that

But that's quite interesting. I feel like a decent amount of Alder's quotes and wind things could be attributed to Syl or perception... but not all.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

There's a server for the RPG?

Ooooh I should join in on that

Yep! Here's the invite.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Thanks!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 8/7/2024 at 12:50 PM, BinarySecond said:

Any reason Tanavast couldn't do it as well?

Yes. Honor was splintered. Preservation was not.

WoB on Honor

[Use the Falchion]

Sooo...when will Kaladin learn The Name of the Wind? 

...terrible pun aside, I think it's either the "Stormfather/Stormfaker" that Gavilar was talking to, given the use of the word "need" in both scenarios, or it's the voice that Szeth heard as a child. What that means, I have no idea! 

If it's the one that Szeth heard as a child, then I think that the in-world book will be about Kaladin and Szeth, but I also think it's about Syl as well. Maybe. 

[con1vm]

On 8/10/2024 at 3:44 AM, alder24 said:

I've found some interesting quotes about wind/voice Kaladin heard at some points. 

  Reveal hidden contents

This one, found by accident, sparked me to search for more. The wind is speaking the 1st Ideal to Kaladin. WoK ch 43:

 Unknown voice, previously I associated it with the Stormfather, now I'm not certain. WoK ch 67:

Wind, as seen by humans, has a will of its own - this might not be just about Windspren. WoR ch 1:

The wind is guiding Kaladin when fighting with Szeth. WoR ch 32:

Again, wind is helping him. WoR ch 52:

The wind is present when Kaladin is fighting with Shardbearers in the arena and it seems like something is even urging him to survive and guiding him - until he run out of Stormlight. WoR ch 57:

The wind is absent without Syl and with his bond nearly broken, but it's also the middle of Weeping so who knows. WoR ch 81:

A stretch, but wind blew when Kaladin had sworn the 3rd Ideal. WoR ch 84:

Interesting distinction between winds and storms, WoR ch 86:

The winds are of Honor, Syl said. OB ch 6:

OB ch 120:

The wind started talking to him? Is this about Syl or something else? RoW ch 80:

 

 

I maybe went way overboard while searching those quotes in every book, but there is a special relationship between Kaladin and the wind. Too many times the wind was guiding him, giving him almost precognitive abilities and and in some cases it seems suspiciously similar to Vin's relation with the Mists. WoT is not the first time when the wind spoke to him. Is that Tanavast? Is the wind alive? Maybe the Shard of Honor - the power itself - is looking for a new Vessel? Hard to say, but the wind is related to Honor and there is something happening between it and Kaladin. 

I'm on my OB reread and yesterday I suddenly found this interesting quote in chapter 6...

Spoiler

“Besides, there was … another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding…” She smiled, and zipped away.

Maybe Syl was talking about the same voice? And if it's owner deliberately led her to Kaladin...some interesting shenanigans are here. 

[BinarySecond]

On 8/10/2024 at 4:35 PM, Oltux72 said:

Yes. Honor was splintered. Preservation was not.

WoB on Honor

I'm thinking pre-splintering; my understanding Odium did that once Tanavast died and left the shard behind.

[GudThymes he/him]

Ok. I've revised who I believe the wind is given ch. 3&4. I believe it is:

Spoiler

Ba-Ado-Mishram.

The fact she is connected to Roshar and the effect her capture had on the spren. Combined with the epigraph that says her voice was unlocked when the vessel changed. I think the reveal of that information in the same chapter is a hint to push us to BAM

 

[Kfish]

28 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Ok. I've revised who I believe the wind is given ch. 3&4. I believe it is:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ba-Ado-Mishram.

The fact she is connected to Roshar and the effect her capture had on the spren. Combined with the epigraph that says her voice was unlocked when the vessel changed. I think the reveal of that information in the same chapter is a hint to push us to BAM

 

I would agree but that is complicated by Hoid's other comment about it being a "god much older than yours" and then going on to talk about what Adonalsium put there. I can believe BAM is a corrupted ancient Adonalsium Spren but would she still BE that spren after being unmade?

[GudThymes he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kfish said:

I would agree but that is complicated by Hoid's other comment about it being a "god much older than yours" and then going on to talk about what Adonalsium put there. I can believe BAM is a corrupted ancient Adonalsium Spren but would she still BE that spren after being unmade?

I see that as a point that could be argued either way, a sort of ship of Theseus situation. My "reasoning" for the mechanics would be that the change of vessel changes the properties of Raysium, now "Tarvanagianium"? which will have changed the nature of the unmaking itself turning the nine into some new version of them.

I also think that the power level correlated to the complexity of the name, with BAM being three parts, fits nicely with the origins of The Wind that Hoid gives. If I am correct then it makes sense that she would be the strongest of the nine.

I'm still pondering what the unmaking would have done but I wonder if it was modifying the connection to Roshar itself and connected the unmade to Braize? Then when BAM reconnected with Roshar again it caused some extra shenanigans. 

[RedBlue]

The new chapter 4 has made me think the Wind is probably an entirely new character, a large spren that embodies an aspect of Roshar in the same way the Stormfather does. She has been here all along, we just haven’t heard of her until now because she’s been quiet.

I think we can firmly rule out Ba-Ado-Mishram as a Wind candidate. The Wind was present and active (to an extent) when Wit told the Wandersail story, which is hard to justify for an Unmade who was trapped in a gemstone in the Spiritual Realm at the time.

If the Wind does have a name we’ve already heard, I think Chemoarish, the Dustmother, is the most likely candidate. She’s the only one of the Unmade who could fit the profile. Additionally, she is often conflated with the Nightwatcher in-world, which could tie in with the Old Magic associations.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Could The Wind be connected to The Everstorm in some way? It seems odd that Odium would be suppressing a Wind God while trying to get his own storm off of Braize and into Roshar.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

Based on what Hoid said, I think the wind is similar to the stormfather and nightwatcher, except without Shard interference. It’s weaker, but still ancient and intelligent.