Who’s talking to Kaladin? / Who is the Wind discussion

[Elder]

I’m wondering if such Spren are where the Unmade came from.

BAM being the Spren of the Wind occurred to me… but somehow I doubt it.

Crazy idea: the Primal Aether of Zephyr.

alternatively, I wonder if there was a similar beings of metal, mist, or ash on Scadrial.  The Shards co-opted magic that already existed right?

[Lord Spirit he/him]

3 hours ago, Elder said:

alternatively, I wonder if there was a similar beings of metal, mist, or ash on Scadrial.  The Shards co-opted magic that already existed right?

So far as I’m aware, Spren only exist on Roshar, but maybe. 

[Elder]

31 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

So far as I’m aware, Spren only exist on Roshar, but maybe. 

Spren, Seon, Spirit, Splinter, Skaze?  I know there are differences to be sure… 

to be fair though, afaik Scadrial wasn’t created by Adonalsium, so he/she/they/it wouldn’t have left anything like that there.

[Shacharma]

5 hours ago, Elder said:

I’m wondering if such Spren are where the Unmade came from.

BAM being the Spren of the Wind occurred to me… but somehow I doubt it.

Crazy idea: the Primal Aether of Zephyr.

alternatively, I wonder if there was a similar beings of metal, mist, or ash on Scadrial.  The Shards co-opted magic that already existed right?

Note that n the case of Scadrial the Shards created the actual planet so there wouldnt be anything predating them...

[BinarySecond]

If the Nightwatcher is an Ado-Original, essentially, corrupted/unmade by Cultivation.

And the Stormfather is also an OG spren, but is now of Honor.

I think it would make sense for there to be another original Spren unmade by Odium.

It's like poetry, they rhyme.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

People seem to think that all of the shards have a balance of power. I don’t think this is necessarily true. There were a lot of people who thought that the sibling was Odiums spren. Preservation and Ruin had a balance, but Roshar isn’t the same. 

[+Child of Hodor]

If it is an Unmade BAM would make a lot of sense except for being imprisoned in the spiritual realm which should rule BAM out. Unless being in a place where all times and spaces exist allows her to still communicate except Rayse was blocking this because BAM tried to usurp Odium during the False Desolation and he, unlike the Shard, doesn't like being challenged. 

Longshot, but Yelig-nar is known as Blightwind and those "Those he possesses have red eyes, grow crystals from their bodies, and appear to be wreathed in a black wind.^[37] "  The problem is Yelig-nar is referred to as a "he" in the histories. They are supposed to be able to talk "like a man", but we've never heard them speak as far as I know which would line up with them being blocked from doing so by Rayse. Another issue is they seem to be a humanoid-shaped smokey creature that probably can't be everywhere the wind is. 

Dai-Gonarthis is said to be an intelligent unmade and we know very little about them. There is some debate whether they are even an Unmade. This could fit with them being associated with Odium enough for Odium to block them from speaking somehow, but not necessarily be an enemy. They are in between somehow. 

[Elder]

Would Wit encourage Kaladin into diving in with an unmade?  Not sure.

The more I think about it, the more I think this may be a/the Zephyr Primal Aether.

Predates the Shattering of Adonalsium.  Tied to wind/air.  Granted, that’s all we know about this.  

At least some of the unmade may also be similar.  Thinking of Re Shephir.

10 hours ago, Shacharma said:

Note that n the case of Scadrial the Shards created the actual planet so there wouldnt be anything predating them...

good catch… 

actually, that’s probably why all the magic there is metal based.  God metals are actually part of them.  There is no other native magic to mix with theirs, give it alternative manifestations.

[GudThymes he/him]

I was looking through WoBs about the Unmade and found this one:

Quote

Blightsong

People tend to hear a lot of voices on Roshar in their heads. And I've noticed that a lot of people either have been confirmed to be in contact with Unmade or show a lot of signs of that. Is there a correlation there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12040

 

 

Not definitive in any way but I think pushes the voice more towards unmade. And I think this WoB could be relevant to the overall conversation depending on your interpretation

Quote

Questioner

Are all of the Unmade native to Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are. Eh… yes, I’m gonna say the Unmade all count as being native to Roshar, yeah.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[alder24]

33 minutes ago, Elder said:

The more I think about it, the more I think this may be a/the Zephyr Primal Aether.

Predates the Shattering of Adonalsium.  Tied to wind/air.  Granted, that’s all we know about this.  

But Aethers claim they didn't originate from Adonalsium (and even predate Adonalsium himself, not just the Shattering), while the Wind was said to be left by Adonalsium after the creation of Roshar.  The fact that Aethers investiture wasn't assigned to Shards during the Shattering seems to support their claim of being separate from Adonalsium. Moreover its the bud in an Aetherbound that allows them to communicate with their Aether - Kaladin clearly has no buds. I highly doubt she's an Aether. TLM ch 42:

Quote

“Both less and more than a god,” he explained. “Silajana is one of the primal aethers. They predate Adonalsium, you know, and exist outside of his power.”
[...]
“The primal aethers grant some people a bud of their core.” He raised his right hand, revealing a transparent web of stone embedded in his palm, and let light from the window shine through as he held it up before the glass. She could see the bones inside, and it seemed the crystal had somehow entirely replaced his flesh and muscles in that spot.
“This bud connects me to Silajana,” he continued, “and through him to all of his other aetherbound. He is the core, and we his web. He is eternal, and we his mortal agents in the cosmere.”

 

 

41 minutes ago, Elder said:

At least some of the unmade may also be similar.  Thinking of Re Shephir.

Re Shephir has Midnight Essence, but it doesn't have to come from an Aether. Midnight Essence is a Cosmere-wide phenomena of investiture responding to corruption, which keeps it one step away from full awareness, by becoming Midnight Essence.

Spoiler

Questioner

My question is around connections between corrupted Investiture on different planets. We have the shroud; we have Midnight Essence; we have the nightmares; and we have Nightblood. All of them have, like, oozy black smoke. Are they all connected somehow with the corrupted Investiture of Odium, Ambition...?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. The question is: all of these different manifestations (we've got the Midnight Essence, we've got the shroud, we've got Nightblood), are they connected? Are they all related in some way to Odium or Ambition? The answer is no to the second.

When I was building the Cosmere, one of the things that I knew is that I wanted to explore magic systems really in depth. And in order to do that, I built fundamental principles by how magic, Investiture, would manifest. And I wanted it to be consistent. For instance, I wanted the rules... if you're making illusions in one world, I wanted those illusions to behave a lot the same way that they would on other worlds. So I built these fundamental principles that I build up from. And one of those fundamental principles is about Investiture that is trying to become alive and is being held back by something. And that is where you get Midnight Essence sort of things. It's, like, one step from being able to become self-aware, but it's being held back. And there's even, kind of, some frustration in there, as much as something not truly self-aware can have. So if you watch for that theme, you'll see it more and more.

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

 

Spoiler

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin.

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO!

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

My biggest qualm with an unmade talking to Kaladin is that he’s in Urithiru. It’s not confirmed, but it feels like it should repel the unmade and prevent communication. 

[GudThymes he/him]

1 minute ago, Lord Spirit said:

My biggest qualm with an unmade talking to Kaladin is that he’s in Urithiru. It’s not confirmed, but it feels like it should repel the unmade and prevent communication. 

Agreed. But if it is BAM specifically I feel like there's enough wiggle room with the Spiritual Realm for her to break the rules. 

 

Also, Re-Sephir had been inside Urithiru for a long time, granted there was no bondsmith at the time and the sibling was "dormant", but there is a precedent for Unmade showing up.

[Elder]

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But Aethers claim they didn't originate from Adonalsium (and even predate Adonalsium himself, not just the Shattering), while the Wind was said to be left by Adonalsium after the creation of Roshar.  The fact that Aethers investiture wasn't assigned to Shards during the Shattering seems to support their claim of being separate from Adonalsium. Moreover its the bud in an Aetherbound that allows them to communicate with their Aether - Kaladin clearly has no buds. I highly doubt she's an Aether. TLM ch 42:

 

 

Re Shephir has Midnight Essence, but it doesn't have to come from an Aether. Midnight Essence is a Cosmere-wide phenomena of investiture responding to corruption, which keeps it one step away from full awareness, by becoming Midnight Essence.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

My question is around connections between corrupted Investiture on different planets. We have the shroud; we have Midnight Essence; we have the nightmares; and we have Nightblood. All of them have, like, oozy black smoke. Are they all connected somehow with the corrupted Investiture of Odium, Ambition...?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. The question is: all of these different manifestations (we've got the Midnight Essence, we've got the shroud, we've got Nightblood), are they connected? Are they all related in some way to Odium or Ambition? The answer is no to the second.

When I was building the Cosmere, one of the things that I knew is that I wanted to explore magic systems really in depth. And in order to do that, I built fundamental principles by how magic, Investiture, would manifest. And I wanted it to be consistent. For instance, I wanted the rules... if you're making illusions in one world, I wanted those illusions to behave a lot the same way that they would on other worlds. So I built these fundamental principles that I build up from. And one of those fundamental principles is about Investiture that is trying to become alive and is being held back by something. And that is where you get Midnight Essence sort of things. It's, like, one step from being able to become self-aware, but it's being held back. And there's even, kind of, some frustration in there, as much as something not truly self-aware can have. So if you watch for that theme, you'll see it more and more.

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin.

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO!

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

 

So the Aethers claim.  That claim is disputed.  I’m not prepared to take a side on that.  Nor is Hoid omniscient.  Perhaps he’s not completely correct (or honest) in the origin of The Wind?   We don’t know enough about any of this to speak definitively.

And what is the bud of Wind?  We don’t know that he doesn’t have one.  We don’t know that there aren’t multiple ways of interacting with Aethers.

again, we don’t know enough… yet.  It will be fun to find out.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

4 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

My biggest qualm with an unmade talking to Kaladin is that he’s in Urithiru. It’s not confirmed, but it feels like it should repel the unmade and prevent communication. 

In addition to Spiritual-Realm-Shenanigans, if the Unmade are as strong as they seem, they may be able to bypass the supression, like 4th Oath Kaladin could. Or if they are ancient Spren of Adonalsium or Honor or Cultivation, then corrupted by Odium, they may also be able to bypass the restrictions. (I’m kind of curious how the supression fabrials affect Renarin and Rlain as well, in either setting.)

I’m inclined to believe that the Wind is what Wit suggests, or at least began as that. I feel like if it became Dai-Gonarthis, then that Unmade would be the one carrying the name Blightwind.

[Wanguu He/Him]

I think that the Wind may be a spren-like creature, possibly from Ashyn that migrated with the humans to Roshar, since they worshipped the storm after (this is a little thin, since it is both humans and singers. Maybe Odium has something to do with it?)

Next, the Wind also mentions the Bondsmith - as we know, there is currently two radiant bondsmiths, so did she mean Dalinar? I think that the Bondsmith is Ishar, and he is to go to Ishar (which Dalinar already wanted him to do)

One last part of this. If the Wind is from Ashyn, and Kaladin needs to go to Shinovar, which is a place most likely Ashyn, maybe in places where the storm is the strongest, the Wind has less of an effect?

I'm sure there's more here, so I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts 

Quote

I have read that in the ancient days, the Wind often spoke to both human and singer. It would then mean that the Wind stopped talking not because of Odium, but because of people who began to fear her…

 

Or to worship the Storm instead.

Spoiler

I understand, it replied. If you can, come to me.

 

“Where?”

 

Listen to the Bondsmith…

[Ashbringer he/him]

“Listen to the Bondsmith” is a neat double meaning - Kaladin is going to go listen to the Bondsmith Dalinar, giving him his more official task of… going to listen to the Bondsmith Ishar. Different contexts (listen for orders/guidance vs listen as a therapist/guide), but same phrase. Navani is less likely IMO.

The Wind finding refuge in Shinovar makes some sense if her opposition is truly the Storm(father)(faker?), because the highstorms are weaker there. But that’s probably not an Ashyn connection as much as a geographical one.

As for worshipping the Storm, I’m guessing that means Honor and the Stormfather - makes sense that the humans would turn to them and away from the Wind once the Desolations started coming, but the singer gods were Odium and the Fused, with the Everstorm only a new creation.

 

Although… the Shin are worshippers of Stone. Going to hazard a guess that that will be relevant later.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Maybe The Wind wants Kal to go find the next Bondsmith? Maybe the Bondsmith that might bond The Wind?

The Wind led Syl to Kal before Kal was a radiant so this sort of "find them before they are a bondsmith" holds to a pattern. 

We have heard it was considered seditious to try and have more than 3 bonsmiths, which sort of implies people had at least considered bonding spren that were not the main 3 bondsiths. 

Edited August 14 by teknopathetic

[Ashbringer he/him]

I still think BAM (and possibly the other two intelligent Unmade) should be capable of being a Bondsmith spren. Perhaps granting Voidlight in place of Storm/Towerlight (would the Nightwatcher give Lifelight?), but she seems to be enough about drawing Investiture and Connection.

And also the whole might-destroy-all-of-Roshar thing seems very Bondsmith.

 

Assuming that the Wind has something to do with Ishar, though - what would that be? She claims it’s the Vessel changing (or perhaps more accurately, Odium being unheld for a brief moment). Maybe she needs a Bondsmith to fix a Connection to something.

[Cocoa he/him]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

As for worshipping the Storm, I’m guessing that means Honor and the Stormfather - makes sense that the humans would turn to them and away from the Wind once the Desolations started coming, but the singer gods were Odium and the Fused, with the Everstorm only a new creation.

 

Although… the Shin are worshippers of Stone. Going to hazard a guess that that will be relevant later.

See also the Eila Stele: "We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."

Up until this point, we the readers (and the characters in-universe, as evidenced by Kaladin's conversation with DDalinar at the start of RoW) have reasonably been assuming that "the gods" meant Honor and Cultivation. But with the revelation of capital-W Wind, it definitely throws the quote into a different light, especially if translation from dawnchant doesn't account for capitalization of proper nouns. Perhaps it should be "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, Stone, and Wind." It certainly feels like that would match what we saw of the ancient singers in Venli's Cohesion-vision in RoW.

Now I'm questioning if this isn't Brandon having played us all for fools in past books by giving us just enough information to draw all the wrong conclusions. We know that Honor and Cultivation settled the Rosharan system after the Shattering (and that most Rosharan investiture was already 'assigned' to them), but do we actually have confirmation that Honor and Cultivation, specifically, were the dawnsingers' gods? If not, could it be possible that it wasn't a case of Honor and Odium 'flipping sides' at all, but the singers beginning to worship Odium and driving the Old Magic gods away, while Honor's allegiance to humans remained static?

 

This is only tangentially related to the above points, but it's mildly interesting to me that Windrunners and Stonewards are on the same latitude of the surgebinding chart, and both of them adjacent to the Bondsmiths at that. I doubt that every order has an analogue in the Old Magic, but for those two in particular it feels significant.

[Elder]

6 hours ago, Cocoa said:

See also the Eila Stele: "We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."

Up until this point, we the readers (and the characters in-universe, as evidenced by Kaladin's conversation with DDalinar at the start of RoW) have reasonably been assuming that "the gods" meant Honor and Cultivation. But with the revelation of capital-W Wind, it definitely throws the quote into a different light, especially if translation from dawnchant doesn't account for capitalization of proper nouns. Perhaps it should be "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, Stone, and Wind." It certainly feels like that would match what we saw of the ancient singers in Venli's Cohesion-vision in RoW.

Now I'm questioning if this isn't Brandon having played us all for fools in past books by giving us just enough information to draw all the wrong conclusions. We know that Honor and Cultivation settled the Rosharan system after the Shattering (and that most Rosharan investiture was already 'assigned' to them), but do we actually have confirmation that Honor and Cultivation, specifically, were the dawnsingers' gods? If not, could it be possible that it wasn't a case of Honor and Odium 'flipping sides' at all, but the singers beginning to worship Odium and driving the Old Magic gods away, while Honor's allegiance to humans remained static?

 

This is only tangentially related to the above points, but it's mildly interesting to me that Windrunners and Stonewards are on the same latitude of the surgebinding chart, and both of them adjacent to the Bondsmiths at that. I doubt that every order has an analogue in the Old Magic, but for those two in particular it feels significant.

Also makes me wonder abit more about Stone Shamanism.

[Kfish]

Been relistening to the series and wanted to note - though someone else probably beat me to it - that the Dawnsinger gods were the "spren, stone, and wind" per the eila stele .

 

Edit: yep, totally beaten there. Anyway, another thing I've been wondering is why the wind will go silent. Maybe they'll be unmade and turned into the spring of the everstorm?

Edited August 25 by Kfish

[Diomedes]

On 8/14/2024 at 8:41 AM, Cocoa said:

but do we actually have confirmation that Honor and Cultivation, specifically, were the dawnsingers' gods?

we don`t 

On 8/14/2024 at 8:41 AM, Cocoa said:

not, could it be possible that it wasn't a case of Honor and Odium 'flipping sides' at all, but the singers beginning to worship Odium and driving the Old Magic gods away, while Honor's allegiance to humans remained static?

The Stele also states: 

Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. 

The Humans were worshipping Odium. How Honor and Cultivation came in is debatable. They were  not the original gods of the Singers, hence they would have been named as such by the Stele. Maybe they rushed into the system to prevent Odium taking over Roshar? Some sort of theory is forming in my mind...

On 8/14/2024 at 8:41 AM, Cocoa said:

This is only tangentially related to the above points, but it's mildly interesting to me that Windrunners and Stonewards

Taln the patron of the Stonewards is also called Stoneisnew. Perhaps he took over the religious place of Stone, literally becoming the "new" Stonegod.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Diomedes said:

The Humans were worshipping Odium. How Honor and Cultivation came in is debatable. They were  not the original gods of the Singers, hence they would have been named as such by the Stele. Maybe they rushed into the system to prevent Odium taking over Roshar? Some sort of theory is forming in my mind...

Honor and Cultivation settled together in the system before Odium came and Odium was later given permission to settle with them. They were already significantly invested on Roshar before Odium arrived with humans and this is evident by the presence of sapient True Spren, who didn't exist pre-Shattering.

Interestingly enough, Brandon stated that all sentient spren appeared after Honor and Cultivation settled in the system and the Wind looks very sentient to me. This might mean that every pre-Shattering Old Magic spren was changed by the arrival of Honor and Cultivation and gained sentience as the result. Some were changed significantly (Nightwatcher) others not that much (the Wind). This makes sense because winds are strongly associated with Honor, even Syl said in OB ch 6 that "the winds are of Honor."

Spoiler

Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Hoidonalsium

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the spren that we know of as the Cryptics exist before Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, good question! No. Cryptics would be one of the forms of spren that were a later creation. Creation is the wrong term, but yeah. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Later development? Evolution?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the sapient spren are later developments. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Are they evolved from the earlier spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Evolution doesn't work the same way on the spren, right? The spren were created more than evolved, I would say.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Maybe cultivated?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, cultivated. *laughter*

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

[Diomedes]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Honor and Cultivation settled together in the system before Odium came and Odium was later given permission to settle with them. They were already significantly invested on Roshar before Odium arrived with humans and this is evident by the presence of sapient True Spren, who didn't exist pre-Shattering

but they were not worshipped by the Danwsingers? Somehow I don`t think  "spren" in "Wind Stone and spren" of the Eila Stele means  all "sentient spren and Honor and Cultivation". There is something we do not know yet. 

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

but they were not worshipped by the Danwsingers? Somehow I don`t think  "spren" in "Wind Stone and spren" of the Eila Stele means  all "sentient spren and Honor and Cultivation". There is something we do not know yet. 

I agree, the new revelation about ancient spren combined with Eila Stele does indeed suggest that Dawnsingers didn't worship Shards, but only the most powerful of ancient spren, like the Wind, Stone and others. True Spren were treated more like friends (Leshvi had a Honorspren friend).