Syladin

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Is it just me, or is Syl trying to put the moves on Kaladin?

Staying full sized, wearing proper women’s clothing from his culture, doing an awful lot of touching.

Seems to me like somebody has a crush and wants to get noticed.

[GudThymes he/him]

I understand your thinking but I personally strongly dislike this theory. I feel like it is a very reductionist view on their relationship to move it from the nahel bond to be some kind of romantic relationship.

The two rely on each other in so many ways and I think Syl is just comforting her radiant who has depression. She tries to make him laugh, keep his mind from the dark place, and reminds him of the good days. That is fully healthy and good in platonic relationships. 

I feel that it is a disservice to Kaladin and Syl's story to reduce the complexity and nuance of their relationship to be explained as "they have feelings for each other".

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, GudThymes said:

I understand your thinking but I personally strongly dislike this theory. I feel like it is a very reductionist view on their relationship to move it from the nahel bond to be some kind of romantic relationship.

The two rely on each other in so many ways and I think Syl is just comforting her radiant who has depression. She tries to make him laugh, keep his mind from the dark place, and reminds him of the good days. That is fully healthy and good in platonic relationships. 

I feel that it is a disservice to Kaladin and Syl's story to reduce the complexity and nuance of their relationship to be explained as "they have feelings for each other".

I don’t see what your problem is. Are you saying that romantic relationships cannot be nuanced and complex? Do you honestly think That there’s anything simple about “ having feelings for each other” ? Do you think that it’s wrong for A romantic couple to rely on each other? 
 

These are honest questions your perspective seems so different from my own that I honestly can’t understand what you’re thinking. 
 

@SwordNimiForPresident honestly I always got slightly romantic vibes from the two of them. I never ship them until recently mainly because I thought that there would be no way for cognitive and a physical being form a romantic relationship no matter how close they were. However, at the end of rhythm of war seemed to provide away. So if this is where Brandon is going, I have no problem with it. And honestly, I really don’t understand those do.

Edited August 6 by bmcclure7

[The Stick]

I really don't like this theory at all. My issue with it is that the Nahel bond is basically a spren filling cracks in the Radiant's soul. Turning this into a romance would mean that Kaladin's soul would love himself in a way, depending on how deeply you would say Syl is entwined with his soul.

My other point is that Sanderson has never been that much of a romance writer, and I don't think that he would really try a Syladin ship.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

9 hours ago, GudThymes said:

I understand your thinking but I personally strongly dislike this theory. I feel like it is a very reductionist view on their relationship to move it from the nahel bond to be some kind of romantic relationship.

The two rely on each other in so many ways and I think Syl is just comforting her radiant who has depression. She tries to make him laugh, keep his mind from the dark place, and reminds him of the good days. That is fully healthy and good in platonic relationships. 

I feel that it is a disservice to Kaladin and Syl's story to reduce the complexity and nuance of their relationship to be explained as "they have feelings for each other".

I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't implying that their entire relationship was based on a romance arc. I think that this is something new that only started developing in RoW. I also want to add that, in my opinion, the best romances start as friendships. There's something cheap to me about a relationship that starts because someone likes someone else's chull.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 honestly I always got slightly romantic vibes from the two of them. I never ship them until recently mainly because I thought that there would be no way for cognitive and a physical being form a romantic relationship no matter how close they were. However, at the end of rhythm of war seemed to provide away. So if this is where Brandon is going, I have no problem with it. And honestly, I really don’t understand those do.

I didn't start picking up a vibe til RoW. Syl was acting different, probably because of Kaladin advancing his oaths and drawing her more into the PR. The at the end when we see Ishar's lab another piece fell into place. Now, with her behavior in the first two chapters, I'm pretty much convinced. Guess we will see where it goes.

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

I really don't like this theory at all. My issue with it is that the Nahel bond is basically a spren filling cracks in the Radiant's soul. Turning this into a romance would mean that Kaladin's soul would love himself in a way, depending on how deeply you would say Syl is entwined with his soul.

My other point is that Sanderson has never been that much of a romance writer, and I don't think that he would really try a Syladin ship.

If you can't love your self, how the hell you gonna love someone else?

Also, I'm struggling to think of a Cosmere novel that doesn't have a romance.

[GudThymes he/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I don’t see what your problem is. Are you saying that romantic relationships cannot be nuanced and complex? Do you honestly think That there’s anything simple about “ having feelings for each other” ? Do you think that it’s wrong for A romantic couple to rely on each other? 
 

These are honest questions your perspective seems so different from my own that I honestly can’t understand what you’re thinking. 
 

@SwordNimiForPresident honestly I always got slightly romantic vibes from the two of them. I never ship them until recently mainly because I thought that there would be no way for cognitive and a physical being form a romantic relationship no matter how close they were. However, at the end of rhythm of war seemed to provide away. So if this is where Brandon is going, I have no problem with it. And honestly, I really don’t understand those do.

You're putting words in my mouth for one. I'm not saying that a romantic relationship isn't complex, but you can't remove this one instance from the context that is our society and media. There is a common trope that "men and women can't be friends" because they inevitably develop "the feels". I think that Sanderson has done a phenomenal job showing how complex and important a platonic relationship can be with Kal and Syl and I find that it loses value if they end up together. All of the emotion and heart and important moments become shadowed by "they liked each other" and that's why they did xyz. And most importantly, what value does the romance add that a platonic relationship between them doesn't?

That's my issue with it. Let me know if you still don't understand. 

[The Stick]

46 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

 

If you can't love your self, how the hell you gonna love someone else?

Also, I'm struggling to think of a Cosmere novel that doesn't have a romance.

My point is that every cosmere novel has romances, but Sanderson has made it pretty clear over the years that he doesn't ever write really complex romances except Yumi.

As to your first point. The two things are completely different. Kaladin loving himself is fine in your first context, and that is completely right. However, you misunderstand me in the fact that I am taking this point in a more theory of the forms manner. Fundamentally, love and relationships requires multiple people, and since Syl is now kind of part of Kaladin's soul, I don't really know if that works.

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, The Stick said:

I really don't like this theory at all. My issue with it is that the Nahel bond is basically a spren filling cracks in the Radiant's soul. Turning this into a romance would mean that Kaladin's soul would love himself in a way, depending on how deeply you would say Syl is entwined with his soul.

My other point is that Sanderson has never been that much of a romance writer, and I don't think that he would really try a Syladin ship.

Isn’t that kind of the point they are literally two souls that have connected literal soul bound to each other the romance practically writes itself. Right to self. And I really don’t understand what you mean by loving yourself. Syl and kal are very different people. They have some similar struggles, but so do all romantic partners. could you try to explain this more? As far as I can tell syl and kal are two people who sold is connected, which sounds pretty romantic to me. Isn’t the whole point of romance two people becoming one while at the same time remaining separate. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

6 hours ago, The Stick said:

My point is that every cosmere novel has romances, but Sanderson has made it pretty clear over the years that he doesn't ever write really complex romances except Yumi.

As to your first point. The two things are completely different. Kaladin loving himself is fine in your first context, and that is completely right. However, you misunderstand me in the fact that I am taking this point in a more theory of the forms manner. Fundamentally, love and relationships requires multiple people, and since Syl is now kind of part of Kaladin's soul, I don't really know if that works.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what differentiates Yumi from the other Cosmere romances? To me it is less complex than a lot of others. It's a "Freaky Friday" where the two characters fall in love. Also the bath scenes. Compared to Vin and Elend or Shalan and Adolin, it seems very straight forward. It's more of a Siri and Susebron to me.

Also, I don't see Kal and Syl as one person. They may share a bond, but in my opinion they are still individuals with their own wants and motives.

[RedBlue]

19 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Is it just me, or is Syl trying to put the moves on Kaladin?

Staying full sized, wearing proper women’s clothing from his culture, doing an awful lot of touching.

Seems to me like somebody has a crush and wants to get noticed.

To me, it read more like Kaladin’s perception of Syl was changing.

Syl seems like she’s trying to be more of a full participant in events, and not just Kaladin’s quirky spren who helps out sometimes. That means looking and acting more human, to give other people those social cues.

And Kaladin notices that she looks and acts like a young woman, while still being the same Syl, and he’s trying to figure out what that means.

It feels like maybe part of that is working out how he feels about Syl’s increased physicality.

[RefusesToElaborate]

I don't think the touching between Syl and Kal is necessarily romantic.

Their relationship is about as intimate as it could possibly be. I kind of picture it like imagine your skeleton is interlocked with someone else's by your ribcage. That's how I imagine the Nahel Bond on a spiritual level. The souls ribcages woven together.

It makes sense that there'd be not so many boundaries between them. And that doesn't always mean romance. It could be because the bond forces them to spend literally all their time together.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

I picture their relationship more of siblings, with Syl being the annoying little sister (who also grants Kal powers). They love and care for each other, but not romantically. Syl is growing up in a sense as she doesn’t really remember much before she bonded Kaladin, so her actions in WaT are more of her figuring out how she wants to express her self. She’s more mature than when she first bonded Kaladin and she now started deciding who she wants to be. She also spent pretty much all of WoK and WoR hidden, so she’s also still adjusting to interacting with the general world (OB and RoW didn’t give her much time for that). Kaladin recognizes that she is growing and realizes (like older siblings do) that she is isn’t a child anymore and has grown up. 

Edited August 7 by Lord Spirit

[king of nowhere]

my view is that Kal and Syl are already so incredibly close, starting a romance wouldn't really change all that much.

adding in that they wouldn't be able to have much physical intimacy - they'd still be able to play all kind of games available to long distance couples, which is nowhere near the full thing, but a big step up from nothing - I'd say that even if they hooked up, 90% of their relationship would remain the same.

heck, the nahel bond is already more intimate than marriage in some aspects. and the two of them... i'm not aware of either keeping any secret from the other, which is more than the average married couple.

20 hours ago, The Stick said:

 Fundamentally, love and relationships requires multiple people, and since Syl is now kind of part of Kaladin's soul, I don't really know if that works.

she's still her own distinct person, I don't think the nahel bond creates any kind of problem with that.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I don't particularly love the ship, but I do think the previews point heavily that direction personally. Syl resting her head on his shoulder while saying "I want things to change and be the same all at once. Suffice it to say that I want to make it harder for certain people to ignore me." when asked if she wants his treatment of her to change, Syl dressing like his ex, Kaladin turning to the camera and saying "Syl is not child-coded"... Lots of signs that either Syladin is happening or Syl is dying, in my opinion. So I guess I've resigned myself to a "wait and see" approach, not really hyped but willing to let the book make its case.

[The Stick]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

my view is that Kal and Syl are already so incredibly close, starting a romance wouldn't really change all that much.

adding in that they wouldn't be able to have much physical intimacy - they'd still be able to play all kind of games available to long distance couples, which is nowhere near the full thing, but a big step up from nothing - I'd say that even if they hooked up, 90% of their relationship would remain the same.

heck, the nahel bond is already more intimate than marriage in some aspects. and the two of them... i'm not aware of either keeping any secret from the other, which is more than the average married couple.

she's still her own distinct person, I don't think the nahel bond creates any kind of problem with that.

 

I think that king of nowhere exhibits my view way better than I did. Fundamentally, the Nahel bond makes them near infinitely close already, so marriage is kind of irrelevant. I guess I see the Nahel bond as more a form of platonic love among friends rather than romantic.

[bmcclure7]

23 hours ago, GudThymes said:

You're putting words in my mouth for one. I'm not saying that a romantic relationship isn't complex, but you can't remove this one instance from the context that is our society and media. There is a common trope that "men and women can't be friends" because they inevitably develop "the feels". I think that Sanderson has done a phenomenal job showing how complex and important a platonic relationship can be with Kal and Syl and I find that it loses value if they end up together. All of the emotion and heart and important moments become shadowed by "they liked each other" and that's why they did xyz. And most importantly, what value does the romance add that a platonic relationship between them doesn't?

That's my issue with it. Let me know if you still don't understand. 

There are plenty of examples of shard bears in spren being just friends. in fact, that is literally the rest of the entire rest of the cast why can’t we have one exception to that? We have plenty of complex platonic relationships. Why can’t we have a romantic relationship?
 

 

And are you implying that romantic relationship relationships are somehow less valuable than platonic ones? Respectfully, I disagree.

Better question ask what does adding a romantic angle to their relationship take away from their relationship the answer is nothing. I honestly don’t understand what you mean their relationship Being overshadowed by they like each other? How does them having feelings for each other somehow lessen any of those emotional moments with each other? 
 

@The Stick 

I don’t get this either. I mean if they’re already closer than a married couple then why wouldn’t we want them to get together? I mean, are you saying that people who are close together? Shouldn’t form romantic attachment? Also, I would like to remind you that friendship and romance are not mutually exclusive You act like having a romance or somehow destroy their friendship or something, but there are plenty of people who are great friends and also in a romantic relationship. And you can’t think of a nail bond as one thing anyway it stated that different parent have completely different relationships with their. Knights for the bond is more like coworkers. Not friends at all, so it seems like relationship between bonded partners. 

Edited August 8 by bmcclure7

[king of nowhere]

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

nail bond 

Nail bond? don't you bring hemalurgy into this!

Quote

Not friends at all, so it seems like relationship between bonded partners. 

Depends on the spren and knight. Some knights are good friends with their spren, like shallan. Lopen seem to treat his spren like a younger sibling, and Lift... Lift is just weird. Other spren have a more businesslike relationship. For the skybreakers, most highspren act like the knight's manager. Dalinar and Navani have complex, difficult relationships with their spren.

So, we have all possible gamuts of relationships between knight and spren. Romance would not be common, but I wouldn't discount it as a possibility, especially with the more human-like honorspren.

P.S. Syl is wonderful. If I was bound to her, I'd probably come to love her eventually. which must contribute to how I see syladin as a natural development

 

 

[GudThymes he/him]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

There are plenty of examples of shard bears in spren being just friends. in fact, that is literally the rest of the entire rest of the cast why can’t we have one exception to that? We have plenty of complex platonic relationships. Why can’t we have a romantic relationship?

Did you bother to read anything I've written? I've already addressed your thoughts on this earlier in this thread.

What value would romance bring to the relationship between Kal and Syl that isn't already there? You are correct that we have other examples of spren and human bonds, but Kal and Syl's has received the most screen time and is arguably the most nuanced relationship. As I already mentioned I feel that their story is cheapened if they have a romance because of common societal tropes.

 

Edit: I realized you were the same person already replying to me, so I will expand more because I do not feel like you are understanding me. But first, I would ask that when you reply in the future to not put words in other people's mouths. You can ask questions like "what do you think about?" But don't say "are you saying x", it's rude and poor conversational form.

 

What I am saying about their relationship is that while making it romantic doesn't lessen their story in this example, it weakens their story generally. Their relationship is already phenomenal as it is, and keeping it as a platonic relationship sets a positive example for depicting healthy relationships and close relationships. As I've already stated to you there is a trope that "men and women can't be close friends because they will develop feelings". Thus far I have not heard reasoning for how a romance actually adds anything to their relationship (other than the romance itself) and I find that if there is a romance some of their closeness will be explained away as them having "feelings" rather than being an example of how close two people can be platonically.

Edited August 8 by GudThymes

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

Did you bother to read anything I've written? I've already addressed your thoughts on this earlier in this thread.

What value would romance bring to the relationship between Kal and Syl that isn't already there? You are correct that we have other examples of spren and human bonds, but Kal and Syl's has received the most screen time and is arguably the most nuanced relationship. As I already mentioned I feel that their story is cheapened if they have a romance because of common societal tropes.

 

Edit: I realized you were the same person already replying to me, so I will expand more because I do not feel like you are understanding me. But first, I would ask that when you reply in the future to not put words in other people's mouths. You can ask questions like "what do you think about?" But don't say "are you saying x", it's rude and poor conversational form.

 

What I am saying about their relationship is that while making it romantic doesn't lessen their story in this example, it weakens their story generally. Their relationship is already phenomenal as it is, and keeping it as a platonic relationship sets a positive example for depicting healthy relationships and close relationships. As I've already stated to you there is a trope that "men and women can't be close friends because they will develop feelings". Thus far I have not heard reasoning for how a romance actually adds anything to their relationship (other than the romance itself) and I find that if there is a romance some of their closeness will be explained away as them having "feelings" rather than being an example of how close two people can be platonically.

I guess what I’m having a hard time understanding is why you think “having feelings” cheapens a relationship. I mean it’s like saying that having them just be friends she is cheeps there relationship because they’re close this can be explained way by them simply “having feelings of friendship” for each other. I understand the words. I just don’t understand where they’re coming from.  
 

And I don’t see why we need an example of platonic friendship when we have for example, pattern and Shallan a relationship that is as close and nuanced as syl and pattern but purely platonic. 
 

 

[GudThymes he/him]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I guess what I’m having a hard time understanding is why you think “having feelings” cheapens a relationship. I mean it’s like saying that having them just be friends she is cheeps there relationship because they’re close this can be explained way by them simply “having feelings of friendship” for each other. I understand the words. I just don’t understand where they’re coming from.  
 

And I don’t see why we need an example of platonic friendship when we have for example, pattern and Shallan a relationship that is as close and nuanced as syl and pattern but purely platonic. 
 

 

I have not said that though. You think I'm saying that and I'm not. I'm saying that it cheapens their relationship as an example of a platonic relationship in media. Not the actual depiction of their relationship.

To your point about shallan and pattern, I think having a male character be the human, not the magic, is a better example of what I mean about the trope. It feels less relevant when the human is female and the magic is male.

I will ask you for the third time now. What value does making Kal and Syl's relationship romantic bring? As far as I can tell people only like the idea because they think it can fit. I think it is a better story and example to keep it platonic, we can disagree on that but I want to know what value you think it would bring.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 hour ago, GudThymes said:

but I want to know what value you think it would bring.

What value does any of it have beyond entertainment? Generally speaking people like a sense of catharsis at the conclusion of a story. Wrapping up with a satisfying romantic conclusion usually delivers this. Yumi would be a good example of that actually.

[GudThymes he/him]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

What value does any of it have beyond entertainment?

I've already very explicitly stated the value of a platonic relationship that stays platonic in this situation. It would be a good example to counter a common trope in society that is damaging to men. What do you think the books you read in school were about? Just to be entertainment?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Gonna nip this snippiness in the bud before it grows further, let's all remember the Code of Conduct and Etiquette Guide.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not closing the thread, just interrupting that chain of comments. Ship flamewarring gets... intense... and I wanted to cut it off early.

Edited August 8 by LewsTherinTelescope
clarification

[king of nowhere]

while i do like platonic relationships and i find them underrated in media, i would not want a fictionary relationship to go a certain way simply because it has to represent something. let sylphrena and kaladin decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives.

and by that i mean, let sanderson write them as he sees fit. he's said that while he outlines a plot, he let the characters develop naturally.

by the way,

Spoiler

there is a trope that "men and women can't be close friends because they will develop feelings"

that's very ridiculous for a simple reason: ok, maybe they develop feelings eventually.

so what? how is that a negation of close friendship? it would be like saying that food doesn't exhist, because all food gets eaten eventually, and then you don't have it anymore.

besides, there's a level of closeness where the distinction stops mattering. they are extremely close, they have strong trust, they appreciate each other's qualities, they like the company of the other person. now they are still extremely close, they still have trust, [...] and they also shtup each other. if they are so close, is there any good reason they shouldn't be shtupping each other?

which incidentally brings me to when and why close friendship can turn romantic. from what i've seen in my life, close friendship between men and woman stays that way if at least one of them is already happily engaged. in that case, they can happily stay friends.

but if they don't have any real reason to not turn romantic, then why would they not?

[GudThymes he/him]

@king of nowhere but what benefit does a romance between them bring to the story? I have my reasoning for why I think it is a better relationship staying platonic, you may disagree with me but I'm not just wrong or my thoughts on the subject ridiculous because you say so.

So far I've mainly heard people say that they want the romance and ask me why I don't. Which fair. But I'm trying to understand why people want the relationship to turn romantic and I haven't really been reading reasons besides vibes or they see the story going that way. I don't understand motivations for shipping so maybe that's where I should just try to focus my learning.

 

With every other cosmere relationship I can think of the relationship is either driving something in the plot or exploring some concept. Siri and susebron explores power imbalances for example. I just don't understand what Kal and Syl brings to the table to explore other than they vibe together. Maybe something like medical dependency relationships, being reliant on your SO for a higher standard of living? Since Syl requires Kal and the bond in order to stay in the physical realm. But the bond itself feels like that exploration of the concept.